ENGINE NOISE

Sounds good michael. And I agree, it would be better to just do them all, so that's what I'll do! I have the time, and I want this think as cherry as my skinny wallet can make it, so if that means more elbow grease, then I'll give it all I got! My 4 year old droped my camera yesterday and busted the lens, so you won't have any new pics for a while, but I'll keep you posted on the progress of the build. Do you mind if I still the sonjamotor color scheme? We're gonna paint the truck black and silver when we're all done with the inside/engine work, so it would go perfect with what we're doing :icon_wink:
on a completely different, but somewhat related note, have you ever turbocharged these engines??? It would seem to me that the limiting factor is the motors ability to pull in plenty of air for bigger boom... As you said before, a new manifold wouldn't give much air, but just help with cooler air. So I've been wondering about turbos. Headers for these motors seem pretty affordable. I would think it wouldn't be too hard to adapt a crossover (especially if I put in the 2" body lift) and spool up a decent turbo, or keep it the way it is and do a twin turbo??? I only know what I've been reading and the measurements that I have out of my Scout, but would like to ask a pro!
Thanks for your input!
 
Big country, you made me realize how long this thread has become. What you skipped over from the beginning of the thread to now is this.
We determined the first engine needs a complete overhaul.
I purchased a new engine and am doing the "little" things to get it up to snuff so that it will be reliable.
The new engine is a 304 and has a bit of rust in it due to the po let it sit out with no air cleaner on it, so the manifold is pretty rusty and a bit of water got into two of the 8 cylinders. I've taken the engine all the way down to the block and am now going to remove all of the cylinders, use a wire/ball hone and thouroughly clean everything. If I go much further then I will probly take out the crank and cam and have the whole thing hot tanked.... But my skinny wallet is the limiting factor there... Plus, I really don't wanna deal with the rear main seal!
So, for any of you joining this thread right now, there's the update!
 
Ben, there's bloke from down unduh by the name of cyco mick who has a cool thread which he updates periodically over on bp. He's put a turbo on his sii w/345. Very well done, and not at all rednecked. The dude knows what he's doing. He's even provided you-tube links of the thing running...it's badazz! Bummer about the camera. How many month's worth of allowance will it take to replace it?:icon_cry:
 
Hey ben,

since the 392 turned out to be a 304, you probably can't rely on much of what the po has said. I could not tell from the pictures, but have you been able to determine if the pistons are oversized? If there is too much carbon, squirt some brake fluid on the top of one piston and take a wire brush to it. You should see either: std., .010, .020, .030, .040. Etc.

Also, what about the main and rod bearings? Pop off the bearing from a cap and see if the same markings (std., .010, .020) are present.

It would be helpful to know if someone has been in there, and what they did, before you.

You indicated you were concerned about the ridge that May exist on the top of the cylinder wall. How much of a ridge is there? Can you hang your finger nail on it? Many people are not too concerned with a ridge as long as you re-use the same pistons and re-assemble everything the same way. If you mix-n-match rods or pistons, your new ring could hit that ridge and break, or simply be hammered into the piston ring groove. Personally, I would rent a ridge reamer and clean it up anyway.

Good luck with your project.
 
Ha, I'll check the bp for him. Sounds like it would be a cool way to get some more power out of old IH cast iron... And it would sound sweet too :icon_xd:
ya, camera was a bum deal, but it was an accident and now it gives me a good excuse to upgrade :cornut:
I've had that camera for several years and so I got my moneys worth out of it... I won't feel as good about getting a brand new camera all greased up while I'm working on my engine tho!
 
Hey Jesse, I checked the bearings but didn't look for any markings... Would that be on the backside of the bearings?? And I'm assuming the markings would show how far over spec the bearing is made for??? As far as the 392, it's still an option if you are gonna sell the whole unit, but as far as parts, ya, I'm outa luck. Let me know how it goes tho.
 
benjamin7 said:
hey Jesse, I checked the bearings but didn't look for any markings... Would that be on the backside of the bearings?? And I'm assuming the markings would show how far over spec the bearing is made for??? As far as the 392, it's still an option if you are gonna sell the whole unit, but as far as parts, ya, I'm outa luck. Let me know how it goes tho.
Click to expand...

Yes, the marking is on the backside (facing the cap). And yes, the markings will tell you if that crank has been turned down. Since the bearings appears to be fine, its not really essential, but now is the time to figure out what was done to that engine before you.
 
Running the brush hone will take care of any ridge ring resulting from carbon accumulation, these engines simply don't develop that issue due to the extreme "hardness" of the cylinder block material, especially when the bores are "work-hardened" after several thousand miles of operation. If there is a heavy carbon ring (I don't see one in your pics), then simply run the piston down part way and run the hone to smooth out the carbon ring before removing the piston.

Again, you cannot compare what would be considered "normal" wear/service issues on these motors with chryfordrolets.

All "oversize" insert bearings (either oem or aftermarket replacement) will be id'd on the back of the shell. If there is no dimensional tag and only a part number/lot number string, then the bearings are considered "standard".
 
Got everything cleaned up, waiting for a hone to come in the mail so I can make it pretty. In the meantime I'd like to clean and paint my block. Anyone have a miracle paint remover? Is it ok to use wire wheels on the head gasket area?? What's the best way to go about this?
 
benjamin7 said:
is it ok to use wire wheels on the head gasket area?? What's the best way to go about this?
Click to expand...

Referring also to mayben's last post in this thread, I don't think that the hardness factor of a wire wheel could damage the old iron deck. However, I've never tried it. All I can recommend is a razor-edge scraper - it has the advantage of giving you a good feel for how much material is still stuck to the deck. Besides, who doesn't love taking forever to accomplish a 5-minute task?

Regardless, it's good to know that pretty much everyone besides me wants to do it right the first time! Definitely looking forward to seeing your end result.
 
benjamin7 said:
got everything cleaned up, waiting for a hone to come in the mail so I can make it pretty. In the meantime I'd like to clean and paint my block. Anyone have a miracle paint remover? Is it ok to use wire wheels on the head gasket area?? What's the best way to go about this?
Click to expand...

The 3m "roloc" kit is the best product to use for this. Any parts house has 'em hanging on the wall. I use the rubberized abrasive "bristle" attachments for prepping block and head surfaces. This is an example of the product, your parts supplier will have a basic kit which includes scotchbrite pads as well:

roloc™ bristle discs

No need to remove the old paint from anything, just do a solvent clean and paint right over the old stuff, it will stick just fine if no oil deposits are left.
 
Hey guys, just wanted to give you all a heads up on what I've finally decided. I don't wanna just bandaid this motor. I want it to give me years of faithful and trouble free service, soooo, I'm gonna fix it up right. All new bearings, new rods/pistons/rings, possibly a new cam (since I can remove the cam without removing the engine this is the only thing I might not do). If the cylinder bores turn out bad, then I will rebore (I really hope they check out ok, I don't own the proper tools to check for taper, out of round, etc.) I have the block in the back of my truck right now and will have it magnafluxed as well as the crank and cam inspected. This way when I'm done with this engine it will be as fresh as it can be. As long as I don't need a bore and a new cam the whole project (including the cost of the engine) will run me right around $1,100. This is me doing everything but the magnaflux and installing the cam bearings. I will be watching over my mechanics shoulder when he installs the bearings just to be sure. All in all I'm pretty stoked to have the direction that I feel will do this truck right. This truck will be die-hard when I'm done with it!

So that's the update, I'll keep you guys posted as I continue to build it, nickle by nickle, dime by dime.

Mm, would you be able to help me with my carb? I've read through the 2300 build several times but am still not sure what exactly I need to order for my carb.

Here's the numbers on the intake
428090-c91
list - 6379
181

I want to completely rebuild it, just don't wanna waste my money by ordering the wrong parts.
Thanks again for all of your help.
 
Sounds like a good plan ben. According to those numbers that 2300 originally came on either a model year 1970 304 or 345 with automatic. The final number is likely 3081 as 181 doesn't correspond to anything in my documentation. You want Holley kit hly-37-1543. It is a universal type kit for both 2 and 4bbl modular carbs. There will be items in it that you won't need for your carb. Don't toss 'em. When you break the carb down, try to retain the gaskets for comparison with what comes in the kit. You'll want to get some berryman's carb dip in a gallon can.
 
Hey ben,

you didn't ask for opinions, but why rebuild a 304? Having owned all three different engine sizes, I can tell you that the 304 is not the best choice. Especially since you have a 345 in your truck now, once you get that 304 running, you are going to notice a drop in performance. Yes, one can "build" a 304 to be a performer, but it does not sound like that is in your budget, so why not start with a better foundation and get a 345 or 392? These extra cubes will cost no more to "rebuild." better yet, why not start with an engine that is used but running?

If you are set on rebuilding the 304, I'd be careful about your $1,100 number. It all depends upon the definition of "rebuild." granted, I'm also a little confused by your posting, you talk about new rods, pistons, and rings, but then you say you don't want to have to bore it. Rods are not available, you'll have to reuse the ones you have. If you are not going to bore the engine, why replace the pistons, unless there is something wrong with them. Hone each cylinder and replace the rings with a good moly ring. Did you ever check and see if the engine has been bored before by checking the tops of the pistons?? Have you checked to see if there is a ring at the top of each cylinder wall? Is the ring carbon or cast iron? How thick is the ring? That should give you an idea of whether another boring is in order. Have you checked the valves and valve seats? No sense in spending money on the bottom end if you don't check the top. Since the engine was a non-runner, we don't know if the heads, valves, etc, are in good shape. See what I'm getting at here? I don't know if any other engines turned up when you went looking and found this 304, but you should think again about finding a runner. If you find a good one, it will give you years of dependable service, for less than what you will spend on rebuilding this 304. My $0.02 ben.
 
Regarding this carb:

"here's the numbers on the intake
428090-c91
list - 6379
181"

that is actually a list 6379-a which is oem on a '72 304 with automatic transmission. Infinitely rebuildable, over and over. The Holley "universal" kit p/n trever posted is good for that one.
 
Awesome, thanks again!

Block is gonna get magged some time early this week, and then honed if it doesn't need a rebore. I'll keep ya guys posted... I need you watching over my shoulder so I don't fook anything up too bad! :cornut:
 
Jesse, I just saw your post. For whatever reason I didn't notice it or trevers post until just now. Anyhoot, ya I would agree with you on much of what you said, but since I've already put down 300 on this engine I figure I should run with it. Everything that I've seen is saying the 304 will give plenty of power if built well and maintained well. As far as pistons, rods, etc, it all depends on how things check out. I'm hoping that I won't have to replace anything, but like I said, I don't even own the tools needed to check such things, let alone know how to use them! There was a carbon ring around the top of each cylinder that easily cleaned off whith scotch brite scouring pads. The cylinders look good, but I want them measured before I decide whether or not to toss this engine. As far as my hunt, ya, I found a few other engines that looked promising, but in the grand scheem of things I would do what I'm doing to my 304 to those engines as well. Keep in mind that when I purchased this engine it was under the impression that it was a 392. I felt a bit screwed but then realized that any engine I got might be better or worse than the one that I now have. All that matters to me is that when I put this thing in it will run good and for a long time. As far as the performance aspect I'm a bit jaded simply because the engine that's in it hasn't done well since I got the truck running last summer. It's a complete dog. The $1,100 is conservative I will admit but I believe it will be doable as long as reboring/new pistons are not in order. Regarding the heads, as best as I can tell the heads were what was rebuilt 15,000 miles ago, and nothing really on the bottom side. This engine probably would have ran fine if I had just put it in, but I wanted the reasurance that tearing it down and spending tons of cash gives :icon_xd:

your $.02 is worth more than you think!
 
michael mayben said:
regarding this carb:

"here's the numbers on the intake
428090-c91
list - 6379
181"

that is actually a list 6379-a which is oem on a '72 304 with automatic transmission. Infinitely rebuildable, over and over. The Holley "universal" kit p/n trever posted is good for that one.
Click to expand...

Oops...well my dang werksheet don't have the -a distinkshun.

Hey good onya ben. Stay the course. I too believe it is the right decision for all the reasons you listed. No slight towards Jesse's advice. I think he did bring up some valid points, but your present plan is based on sound logic, and therefore worth following.
 
Ok, haven't heard anything from the machine shop yet but I went ahead and tore down the carb. Looks like it was in need. Plenty of junk in the float and in the main metering body. The o-rings were all dried out and useless looking too. Anyhoot, it's all tore down and soaking in berrymans chem dip for the night and I'll run it through the dishwasher and blow out all the holes tomorrow. The only question I have really is what size jets I should be going with for my app. As you know it's a 304 with a tf 727 in a Scout II. Daily driver and my wife has a light foot. It currently has #49's. Is that suitable?
 
At the risk of being contradicted by the carb king...hey, I get used to it. Slappin' me arount gives him sumthin' to do. Yeah, I think those are a touch tiny. You gotta compensate for this crappy alkygazz yer buddy owlgorz makes us burn. I think you ought to upsize at least to #51 and you might even encounter a lean surge at cruise with those. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you settled on #53 jets. The great thing about these modular carbs is jet changes are simple, the jets are readily available from most parts houses and they're pretty cheap. Have some fun and experiment with the thing when you get it rebuilt and running.
 
Oh yeah, I fergot to mention my elevation is 4000. We won't often be going down in elevation but when we get this thing ready for trails we'll be going up quite a lot. I don't know if that makes any dif on the jets, but I know it changes how they're tuned.
 
Trever is gittin' purdee guud.

The oem jetting for a 304 with an oem 2300 is #53. With a 345 it could be either #51 (most common) or #53 also. This is info straight from various IH service manuals which have an extensive set of tables for all carbs which were oem by both IH p/n and Holley list number.

This is the jetting for vehicles originally delivered to the end user at altitudes below 5,000ft. For vehicles sold/delivered at altitudes above 5,000ft. The dealer had a bulletin that told them what jetting should be used. This was all for emissions (yes, the "emissions" demon began raising it's head circa 1962) and secondary for drivability. I don't have copies of those various bulletins, but jetting a carb sure ain't rocket science.

For Holley modulars that I know are running e10 (that means nearly every one) I now go up two jet numbers routinely if tuning for best overall performance with no consideration for making smog numbers, otherwise I leave 'em oem jetting.

The mean altitude there in downtown kfalls is 4109ft. So a #49 jet ain't too far off, but at 50mph a slight lean surge might be experienced with e10. So I'd jet that carb for your market with e10 at...#52>#53. Then...do the "power timing" thing once the motor is running, you should be able to end up with a base timing at that altitude around 10* running e10, but that doesn't really matter as long as you have no audible detonation under load.
 
I have driven a lot of miles in ihc vehicles with 304, 345, 392, 404, and 446 engines.

The mv engines had considerably more go than the sv engines in similar sized vehicles (mostly buses).

A bus with a 345/5-speed had about the same amount of go as a similar sized bus with a 392/automatic.

My '65 t-all has the 304 in it.

The '74 200 I had years ago had the 392 in it.

Yes the 392 had more go than the 304.

But I can go almost twice as far on a gallon of fuel with the 304 than I ever could with the 392. And that was back in the day when we could get real gas compared to the alkee crap we have to run now.

I suppose what I am saying is a good running 304 in a Scout is going to have more than enough go, particularly if it is going to be used as a dd.

Imho, the penalty you would have to pay in increased fuel use with a 392 compared to a 304 is not worth the penalty.
 
Mark, thanks for the input! Great information for me. It makes me feel a lot better about what I'm doing (and more importantly, what I'm spending my money on!)

the carb is bright and shiny like new, inside and out. My #51 and 53 jets come in tomorrow and I'll put it all back together, skim it with a nice clearcoat and let it set until the engine's ready! I'll post some pics when it's all done.
 
For your guy's info, this is a post I just put up in carb tech for the 23xx thread. Since it had more to do with my carb than my build I put it there. I'm still waiting on my block to be tanked. My mechanic is thinking that it will need bored otherwise the rings aren't gonna seat on that #7 cylinder. He's gonna hone it after the hottank and let me know. Anyhoot, it looks like I May be in the market for some new pistons now as well. Looks like I May be into it for closer to 2000 after it's all said and done, but the cheapest crate I could find was 1800 it is worth it to have it built right and to be a part of it and learn in the process.

I'll keep you posted as things progress.


"hey michael, it's your oreegun buddy from k-falls reportin' in. I rebuild the 2300 that came on the motor I bought. The engine is still at the shop waiting for the hot tank, but like I said in my engine noise post I went ahead and rebuilt this 2300 with the kit that you supplied the p.n. For. Anyhoot, long story short is I put it all back together and for shits and giggles threw it on the 345 that is in the Scout right now. After about 10 cranks it fired right up. I was pleased because it sounded goood and was way more responsive than the smogerator that I removed. Well that was short lived. I was having a helluva time getting it to idle and not die below about 700 rpm. Everything seemed to be working fine but for the life of me I couldn't make the thing run right. So I got on here and read every post and think I might know the problem.
It looks like I'm missing the check needle that belongs in the pump shot thingymabob. There was nothing in there before and so I didn't realize it was missing until I read through all of these posts. How do I know what I should put on? Is there something on my 2110 that I can install in its place? The seat looks identical to the picture a few posts up. (good camera work I must say). What do I do?

The picture was post 86."
 
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