ENGINE NOISE

[Benjamin7]

Ok, sorry to say buddy (or I don't know if I'm sorry, not too sure what to think...) the bearings showed wear but nothing excesive. This is the #7 rod bearing... I'm sorry but it's as far as I've gotten tonight and I'm headed out with my woman soon so this is it, but I'll post the pics of what I've got. The #7 is the only one I could check. I pulled appart the rod bearing and plastiguaged it. Torqued it to 50 ft.lbs. And got .076... Way more than .0011-.0036 that it's supposed to be. So new rod bearings are in order, but I need to check the main bearings as well. I'll get on it first thing in the morning.
Here are some pics for your viewing pleasure.
Sorry but the pic of the plastiguage messurement did not come out.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Ben,

.076"???? Not possible to measure with your red pg. There is a metric and a inch scale pg available. .076mm is equal to .0029". That is good!!!.. If you purchased metric pg multiply the reading by
.03937 (.076 x .03937 = .00299 which is fine).

The upper rod shell sees all of the loading and 90% of the wear and on the mains it is the lower shell.. You should be able to feel the looseness up and down by hand when you run across the culprit. I would like to see the wear pattern on the upper shell and not the bottom one for the reasons I posted above.

Push the piston up into the bore further and see if you can feel up and down play in the piston pin.you can also rotate the journal to give you room to move it.

I'll be at the nhra winter nationals most of the day tomorrow. I will try to get to the form with my I-phone but May be limited.

 

[Benjamin7]

Ok sounds good. I did check play up and down but did not inspect the upper bearing. I will make sure to take a look tomorrow. And yes, you were right, it is metric... Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Robert Kenney]

The clearance you measured indicates you will see only slight wear on the upper shell. An other bearing must be the bad one. Maybe the rear or #4 main.

 

[Benjamin7]

Ok, I'm gonna just post as I go through this so I make sure to get everything that's important noted down. I went from #7 to #8... #8 looked even better than 7. Guaged at .002. I buttoned it back up and torqued it down, then moved back to #6 pulled it appart and yeah, the bottom of the shell looks good, but the top is wiped out, showing coper and a bit of scorring... So I figured it would guage real high... Nope. Guaged right at .003 (see pics). So now I'm wondering what's the point of guaging at all? If a bearing is visibly wiped out, why would the guage show that the clearances are within spec? anyhoot, I'll keep working forward and post more of what I find as I go. Here's some more pics for ya!
I accidently pictured the mm side of the guage, but like you said before, .076 mm is .003 in.

 

[Benjamin7]

Ok, #5 was not as bad as #6 but it's starting to show some ware on the top half of the bearing. #4 is pissing me off tho. It is wiped pretty well but more than that is how much play the connecting rod has on the piston pin. It is not twisted but it looks like whoever installed the pin into the connecting rod did not use the spacers that limit the play on the pin. I can't describe it very well so I'm going to post a video of it on youtube and you can take a look at it.
youtube - '77 Scout II connecting rod

 

[Robert Kenney]

The play front to back of engine is normal as there is really nothing to stop is accept for the rod bearing play and the piston.

If you find no bearing clearance over .006 and you have feeler gauges, see if you can measure piston to cylinder clearance.

 

[Benjamin7]

Ok I guess I was over reacting all of the rod bearings are within tolerance, #3, 2 and 1 were all about the same, showing some ware but not crazy bad. I realized that #6, #7 and #8 bearings have a line running along them... I believe they are different from the other bearings and maybe they were replaced recently?? But #6 is showing the most ware of everything so possible it's the culprit? Not sure... So I just did the first of the crank bearings and it's looking good... The plasti shows .004. Allowed is .001 to .004. Here's a pic of the plasti on the first bearing. More to follow.

 

[Benjamin7]

Alrighty, I did #2, #3 and #4 mains and it all plastiguaged the same as #1. #2 showed the most ware with some scoring, #3 is worn but very evenly, #4 was better than #2 but did show some ware. I didn't pull #5 as I don't want to have to get a new seal.
So after all of this what do you guys think? I don't have feeler guages long enough to measure clearance between rings/piston wall. I don't really know where to go next. All of the pistons were firm in their bores.
One thing that I noticed when I pulled the main bolts was that the ones in the middle, #3 and 4 in particular, smelled a lot like gasoline. Maybe all of this is being caused by bad valves? Or is it just because I'm running the truck with no #7 wire so the fuel is getting into the oil? Shouldn't it still be ejected out of the exhaust? I think after I get it buttoned back up I'm going to go ahead and work on the carb. I'm still debating changing out the 345/727 combo with the 350 efi/700r4 that I have... Either way I'm going to have to run this thing the way it is until this spring when I can take a week to either swap or rebuild. I know the swap is a can of worms, but right now I have 650 bucks worth of mis. Parts that I can return and have that cash towards the swap, plus I'd have the 345 and the newly rebuilt 727 to sell for extra cash (maybe I can do the SOA at the same time??)
watcha think?

 

[Michael Mayben]

My opinion,...there is no bandaiding that motor, the bearings are wiped just from looking at the pics! This motor was throwed together sometime in the past in a botch job with obviously worn out parts, those bearings are toast, don't care what the plastigage clearance is now.

I'd also bet a sixpak that at least one rod/piston is installed backwards (resulting in gross piston "slap"), and some of the pistons are installed incorrectly on the rods, the pistons must be heated to above 300f to either remove or install on the rods.

It needs to be completely overhauled in a proper manner, or parked. It will not function effectively in it's current state, and will most likely grenade when run. If that happens, ya got nothing and will have wasted whatever parts money has been spent to this point.

We have a tremendous amount of information posted in this forum right now regarding proper engine building practices along with alternative methods to achieve a decent end result.

 

[Robert Kenney]

When you plasitgauge a main bearing like you did the weight of the crank hanging down into the main cap will crush the little gauge strip before forcing the crank up into the upper bearing in the block. It really only works well with the engine upside down like when you are building an engine. The gray/lead alloy layer is at least .003 thick so if you are still gauging at spec while the gray layer is worn away I suspect error in the measurements. But anywhoo as you say. You have an engine issue and just have not found it or quantified it yet. What numbers are on the bearings???



I can't do much more than we have already with out having it in my hands. If you are near mayben ( thought I read you are in oregon) I suggest seeing if he can help you.

 

[Benjamin7]

I think I agree with you michael. I think this thing needs to be parked before more damage occurs.... Lord knows I don't need a thrown rod. What do you think about the swap? Considering that I don't care too much about stock, more than anything I want reliability and fuel economy. My plan for this truck is to be a dd with weekend warior capabilities. Want to be able to do light trails and get up into the mountains for hiking. I can see myself taking this thing to the coast as well... Where I live is 4000 ft. So it seems like the efi will be the best there. I really think I'm just gonna swap the 350. Just gotta figure out if I wanna keep the transfer on it and find a different front axle (the GM is a driver side drop) or keep my Dana 20 and fork out 600 for the adapter... What do you guys think?

 

[Robert Kenney]

I think mm has his hands full in his shop so I'll chime in on the swaparoo.

You have a good engine and drive train that works. If you put teh time it would take to swap in a GM you would have a great running IH motor. The IH can make a good mile per gallon like the GM so no real gain there. The Scout is still a brick and hard to push through the air.

I suggest getting trevor to help you out and go through the engine. That is ofcourse if that sounds doable.

 

[Scoutboy74]

The other option which is quite workable if the proper steps are taken, is to look for a known runner sv motor, buy it and swap it in. This isn't something that you'd want to rely solely on any seller's word for. You'd need to hear it run, perform your own compression tests, etc and the price would need to fit within your budget, but that would get you up and running without fear of engine-pocalypse. Then if you wanted to, you could take your sweet ass time going through the current engine with a fine tooth comb. Complete, running sv motors aren't like trying to find bigfoot out here. They actually do exist. And in this case I wouldn't turn my nose up at any size 304-345-392 just so long as it met the criteria already set forth. The final call is up to you ben. It's your ride and your dime. All we can do is make sure the options are on the table for you to consider. Sorry about your luck on this one.

 

[Benjamin7]

Hey trever, I was wondering when you were gonnna chime back in! So ya, that's what I've started doing since michael gave his opinion of the reliability of that motor. I have already been looking for a decent used motor... So far I've only had much time to search this site and binder bulliten. I still need to check binder planet and binder bench and see if anyone has anything out there that will work.
Thanks for all the help and the info here guys. I know that without it I would have done a botch job on this. Now I know exactly where to go, I just have to decide which "where" I should follow! I realized something else last night... My Dad has an '82 Chevy that was creamed by a semi a few years back. It's been sitting in the back forty for at least 5 years... It has the 454 and an auto tranny... Hmmmm... 454 would be pretty bad ass in a Scout...

 

[Dealbreaker74]

There is no real need to go to a driver's side t/c drop if you don't want to. There are plenty of 700r4/np231 swaps to look at, and aside from the crossmember and driveline mods, its a snap. Keeping the stock d-44 makes the most sense. Np-208s and 231s w/passenger drops are very plentiful. Of course, I'd stick w/the ihc iron in front....

 

[Scoutboy74]

Well ben, I was laying in the weeds keeping a weather eye on things while the gurus guru-ed. By coincidence I was attending the binder university most of the weekend in continuance of my capstone project under the guidance of professor mayben. We had a stimulating sidebar about your sitcheeyashun, whilst smoking corn cob pipes and stroking our beards in a most intuhlekshooel fashion.
Gosh this timing sucks. If only this was happening 2 years ago. I would have gladly given you my good running, high miles 345 with trashed cam bearings. I didn't have the means to dry store what was suddenly a boat anchor to me for x amount of time after it was pulled. I feel guilty now. You've got most of the parts that would have restored it's health. I fear that block has been reincarnated into a frikkin pree-us now.
I'll be keeping my eyes and ears peeled for a solution.

 

[Benjamin7]

Hey trever, ya, don't sweat it! I got my feelers all over the country right now, hopefully we'll come up with something. Something I've been thinking about is how much I love diesels. I know the diesel they run in the scouts are oil burners but that's never bothered me too much. I haven't found anything that has shown a diesel mounted to a tq flite tho... Do you know if they ever mated it that way, or was it all to manual trannys? I've also read that those deisels can get up to 30-35 mpgs! Would love to see that on my dd!

 

[Benjamin7]

Hey dealbreaker, I'm getting savvy with all of the IH stuff, but know next to nothing regarding what goes behind a chitvy engine. Are the np 231's a good tc?? How does it compare to the d20 I'm running now? I wouldn't mind keeping the d20 but the adapter is $600 bucks after shipping! Then again, I'm not turning this truck into a wheeler, I just wanna be able to take it on light trails. I know the granny low on my gmc is forever low... I can put that truck in granny low and it will climb a tree while towing my 20k gooseneck... Just not over 5 mph

 

[Michael Mayben]

Runner sv engines are a dime-a-dozen in the northwest dude! Take the easy way out, find one that is guaranteed runner that has oil pressure and no valve train noise, drop it in, and move on!

Then when ya have time/beans/means, build the motor ya have now as a learning experience.

Connecting with IHSTO will produce an engine in fairly short order, and also post in the classifieds here:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/I-h-s-t-o/

You are residing in what was one of the largest markets/concentrations of IH/Scout II vehicles sold back in the day in the entire u.s. Market, shit is everywhere up here!

The absolute perfect engine swap into a Scout II however...is a "b" block chrysler (383/413/440) married to a chrysler-pattern 727 that has been converted to a Scout II output shaft (to retain the d20), this is nearly a bolt-in operation, results in a loss of about 150lbs., and the motor can easily produce 450hp with a minimal expenditure for off-the-shelf parts as common at 7-11 as sbc shit.

A chrysler 318/340/360 is just as effective and bolts to the same tranny.

 

[Benjamin7]

No doubt about all the engines up here. Now that I'm on the hunt I have all sorts of possibilities! Pretty damn cool.

 

[Dealbreaker74]

The np-231 is the same basic box that came behind 1 ton jeeps, so its up to the task. Plus its a little lower in 4-lo than the Dana 20s and 300s (2.70 vs 2.04). And lighter. The drawbacks are its probably not as durable as the d-20/300 (chain drive vs gear drive) when you're really beating on it. And since its aluminum, it needs a good skid plate.
I went with this because of your sitch concerning the adapter. But when you figure the crossmember/driveline mods, its about a wash. In fact, you'll probably end up modding your driveshafts anyway. The 700r4 comes out longer than the 727.
So far I am happy. The GM tranny has a low 3.06 first to get you rolling and the od is how it should have come from the factory. First gear and lo range gives a considerably lower crawl ratio than the 727/d-20 combo.
The NP208 is similar and plentiful, but not as strong and has no neutral position between 4hi and 4lo.
You're looking at $600 for the ihc engine plate, and roughly another $300 each for driveline mods. A junker 231 should be no more than $250. You can refresh it with new bearings, seals and a chain for about $125. I also ditched the bogus slip yoke tailshaft on the 231 and replaced it with a shorty kit like the Jeep guys use. That was another couple hundred. So we're looking at something close to $2k before you even have a running engine. But, once you get all of this sorted out, you'll have a modern drive train (which can be repaired anywhere if needed) being pushed around by the heart and soul of American iron. These rigs were ahead of their time style wise, and they really stand out in a crowd. The proof is all the knuckleheads that ask me "what kind of Bronco is that???"
a little off the topic, but my $.02.

 

[Dealbreaker74]

I also agree w/mayben on the mopar 440 thing. I've seen this swap in person twice, and it is a kick-ass option. The only thing missing is the overdrive. But it would take more than that to knock the smile off your grille when you've got 400hp/tq at the wheels!

 

[Benjamin7]

I wouldn't mind your $.10 worth! I'm gonna try to find an IH motor first, since I have the cash into the tq.flt. Already... From what I've found it looks like I May be able to just swap it for around $500! Wow. Had I realized this then I May have been looking for a new motor from the beginning. If I can't find a motor that is looking decent then I May go with the 350/700r4 swap. I love the idea of an overdrive.

 

[Dealbreaker74]

Its still an option down the road. This truck started with the 727/d-20 combo. Just add the motor plate from ihon, and you're in business. Ihc motivation and od too.