• To ALL forum users - As of late I have been getting quite a few private messages with questions about build ups here on the forum, or tech questions about your personal project. While I appreciate the interest, sending me a private message about these topics distracts from, and undermines the purpose of having a forum here. During the day I wear many hats as a small business owner-operator and I work tirelessly to provide the absolute best service possible to you, our valued customer. When I created this forum I rounded up some of the best minds I knew so that any tech question you might have could be asked and answered by either myself or one of my highly experienced moderators, this way the next time this same question is asked the answer can be easily found and utilized by the next IH enthusiast having the same question. This allows me the freedom to run the day to day operations of the business and minimize the impact to shipments and shop activities that these distractions can cause. It is of the up most importance for me to complete the daily tasks in order to best take care of you our customer, all the while providing you a forum to get the level advice and input you have come to expect and deserve from the premier IH shop in the country.

    So with that I ask that anyone with a question about one of our build ups or a general tech question to please use the forum as it was intended. I am absolutely available by telephone to answer your questions as well but at times may direct you back to our website to better field your question or questions. Most other private messages I will be glad to answer for you.

    Thank you for your understanding.

    Jeff Ismail
    Owner/Operator

Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

Michael Mayben

IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
a guy on another forum is claiming that the mr Scout springs are just Skyjacker cj5 springs. Anyone know if this is the case? No need to pay an unnecessary markup.

I kind of doubt the claim because most things I've read about using Jeep springs on a Scout have not been good. Like that they sag in short order. What makes a Scout so much heavier than a Jeep anyway?
The "other forum" dude is full of crap.

Mike fiock/mr. Scout is a personal and professional friend of ours.

He's had his lift springs custom fabricated for many years by a company that is totally off the radar. But in fact...that company manufactures many spring sets for many vehicles that are marketed under many brand names.

Mike worked out the arch/length and spring rate for the s80 apps many years ago, dates back to the late 60's.

Everything is "heavier" regarding any ihc-produced product as compared to any similar vehicle from some other oem. Ihc products were intended for the commercial/agricultural/vocational market where long-term durability was a primary design criteria.
 

Robert Kenney

Super Moderator
Mr Scout is a fine business and I won't pass judgment on him based on some unsubstantiated statement on an anonymous form. Ask the guy/gal to put up proof or he/she is fos. I seriously doubt he repackages sj stuff and has to play the double Mark up game.

The springs are exactly correct to fit a Scout 80 and they have not sagged one bit like the Jeep are rumored to. Some times you have to take the risk and just follow your instinct.
 

Mastiff

Member
Thanks for the replies. You confirmed what I suspected. I'm close to pulling the trigger on something lift wise. Does ihon have the appropriate shackles to go with mr. Scout springs? I don't really want much additional lift, just something a little more heavy duty than the home made junk I'm using, and something appropriate to utilize the range of the springs. I'd need some u bolts too... And shims, and shocks... :crazy:
 

Michael Mayben

IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
The various length CPT shackles we have in the store will work for the s80 just fine. You simply cut down the center spacer to proper width after installing the springs using either shims or no shims between the inner bushing support and the side of the shackles depending upon which bushing set is used. The shims are simple grade 8 washers. Some bushing sets come with the shims, some don't depends upon the supplier's design.

After each shackle/spring is installed and the nut firmed up, then cut the spacer to fit and install between the plates with the supplied hardware.

This pic shows what I'm talking about, this is a 5" CPT shackle used with polyurethane spring bushings. All installed with silicone grease. The springs are oem.

This setup also includes the installation of steel, CPT 6* alignment wedges in the front axle/spring interface (oem spring-under), locked in place with both the u-bolts and the spring center pin.
 

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Robert Kenney

Super Moderator
I have written this already but in case it was missed. I have the mr-s springs and about 3/4 of shackle lift (1.5" longer shackle). The springs alone were fine from a drivability stand point. After adding the shackle I did begin to experience annoying bump steer. You have good timing to be asking about the lift because I am in the middle of flipping the tie rod ends to the top of the yolk and building a new drag link and tie rod assembly. In the machining and painting phase now. Tomorrow I will reassemble the axle. Then reverify kingpin bearing preload is correct 13-26ftlb from one of the kp cap bolts.


The tie rod flip will correct the drag link angle about 2 1/2 inches which should eliminate the bump steer. I will also lengthen the drag link to as far to the passengers side as possible to also decrease the angle.

I do need to have Jeff send me a knuckle seal kit which I forgot to do last week. Knuckle grease is spec-ed as #0 or #00 lube and not bearing grease or gear oil. It's viscosity is akin to yellow mustard, semi flow-able.

P1010373 (Large).jpg

P1010374 (Large).jpg

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Mastiff

Member
Nice. You going to mass produce those parts for sale? :icon_wink:

I've read that a steering stabilizer is helpful with bumpsteer. What do you think?

You said you got shackles 1.5" longer than stock. The stock ones are 3"? So 4.5" shackles? I see ihon has them in 1" increments. I'm considering the 4" ones, so with mr. Scout springs I'd be at an even 3" of lift.

I'm assuming the 2.5" stated for mr. Scout springs is relative to stock springs in a like new state, not sagging like almost all 45 year old springs must be? Just wondering whether it'll be more than 2.5" relative to where I am now...
 

Robert Kenney

Super Moderator
Mass production???? I have no idea. The part that is not really sale-able is the machine work. A kit would have to have that. Most swap in d44's and use a high steer kit. I am afraid I am the fringe element that would screw around with the d27. I suppose there might be other purists out there but I have not found many yet.

Bump steer is a function of the drag link geometry and unless the geometry is corrected a damper only takes a tad of the effect away but transmits the load to the steering gear. The problem is still there so it depends how much crap you are willing to deal with when you drive down the road. I am not very prone to put up with a vehicle that won't behave so I am fixing it to my liking.

2 inch I don't remember what the stock shackle bolt cl was so I could not tell you which to buy. You should measure yours with a tape and see where your base line is. 1 inch of lift from the shackle will be no worse than the 3/4 I have. You will still have roughly the same road manners as I do.
 
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Greg R

Member
I am afraid I am the fringe element that would screw around with the d27. I suppose there might be other purists out there but I have not found many yet.
I'm a purist at heart. It's great to see others improve stock setups with some skillful fine tuning such as you've been posting. For the most part for what it was intended for, stock was fine; and it's lasted more years than many of today's owners are old.
 

71mtnscout

Member
the angle shims need to be specific to the narrow s80 1 3/4" wide spring. The sii are to wide will not work. You could narrow those or add notches to clear the u-bolts.

Best to ask if Jeff has narrow ones.
You can use the sii shims, but you need to drill them for the u-bolts to go through them. Accually the drilled shim will never "spit" out or loosen up.......a trick the I got from michael m!
 

Michael Mayben

IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Forgot I had this pic. These are the cast zinc wedges that some po had installed in our s80 many years ago.

It also had a hydraulic steering damper installed which is a total pos and only a bandaid as Robert described. It got shitcanned immediately. Same for the one on our recently acquired t'all, what a joke, those dam thangs are dangerous! If anyone thinks they are gonna fix steering/suspension with a damper bandaid, then they should not be driving down the same road I travel on!
 

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Mastiff

Member
It also had a hydraulic steering damper installed which is a total pos and only a bandaid as Robert described. It got shitcanned immediately. Same for the one on our recently acquired t'all, what a joke, those dam thangs are dangerous! If anyone thinks they are gonna fix steering/suspension with a damper bandaid, then they should not be driving down the same road I travel on!
They May be a bandaid for geometry issues, but how are they dangerous? My k5 had a stabilizer on it from the factory. Don't they just add some dampening to prevent all the jarring from the road from going directly to the steering system? It seems reasonable to me. People did clearly get carried away putting bunches of them on for cosmetic reasons back in the 90's. I'll admit I had side by side duals on my k5 for a while just because I thought it looked cool (I was young).
 

Michael Mayben

IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
they May be a bandaid for geometry issues, but how are they dangerous? My k5 had a stabilizer on it from the factory. Don't they just add some dampening to prevent all the jarring from the road from going directly to the steering system? It seems reasonable to me. People did clearly get carried away putting bunches of them on for cosmetic reasons back in the 90's. I'll admit I had side by side duals on my k5 for a while just because I thought it looked cool (I was young).
Ever had a damper lock up and sieze the steering system? Or "partially" stiffen and impede steering and create a jerkee motion when trying to turn the wheel?

How about a "rock ping" to the inner/outer tube of the damper cylinder which then creates a tight spot as the piston attempts to move past.

The chev had a damper because the geometry wasn't done correctly and the "factory" decided the bandaid route was cheeper than doing a proper correction. Not uncommon at all around deetrot.

Many, many steering gears, power steering pumps, ball joint sets, tie rod ends, king pins, etc. Have been replaced over the years by shops who blow smoke on the customer when the real problem is a binding steering damper.
 

Michael Mayben

IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Robert...refresh my haid...that tapered ream is 8*????? Or what?

And...what's the rough rpm you spin it for doing that particular operation. Do you drill the hole out to a constant diameter first, or just let the ream do the whole job?

Do ya have an idea of the approximate number of cuts that could be made on those knuckles with a quality version of that ream before it would need attention?
 

Mastiff

Member
I'm trying to understand what I need to get the shims working right. Since I'll be coming out very close to what Robert has lift/shackle wise, it looks like 4* shims are my best bet. I'll go with the Scout II shim with the intention of drilling them out for the u-bolts. Do I need/want new centerpins? I'm not real clear on that. Would new ones be longer to extend through the shim into the perch?

I'm planning on 4" shackles.
 

Robert Kenney

Super Moderator
4" bolt cl shackle will give you a bit more than 3/4 lift.

4 degree is perfect to compensate for the shackle. You don't need any for the spring lift as it won't alter caster. 6 would be to much.


Depending on your existing spring pack thickness you May need u-bolts but you May not. I waited to see and installed new ones for safety's sake.

I welded a bung into my angle spacer to pilot in to the axle perch and used the existing spring center bolt to pilot into the angle spacer.
You could buy a spring bolt with a longer head to pilot the entire thickness. I didn't have access to any so I did it my way.
 

Robert Kenney

Super Moderator
Robert...refresh my haid...that tapered ream is 8*????? Or what?

And...what's the rough rpm you spin it for doing that particular operation. Do you drill the hole out to a constant diameter first, or just let the ream do the whole job?

Do ya have an idea of the approximate number of cuts that could be made on those knuckles with a quality version of that ream before it would need attention?
Reamer is 1 1/2 inches/ft or 3deg 34' 35" per side. An 8 deg hole taper won't work as the taper shank of the tre will rock and loosen up quickly.

I run at 60 rpm which is back gear and as slow as I can turn it.


For best tool life :
if you are reaming a raw hole, bore not drill just under the small end of the finished taper. Drill bits wander so the reamer will rub and wear fast.

The knuckle is easy because it is cast iron but the steering arm is a forging and tough as hell. You go to fast and the reamer will wear quick hnce the slow speed.

Tool life is a big function of patience and good cutter etiquette. Use a good chlorinated (or similar) cutting oil and not engine oil. A good hss tool should be good for many holes but it depends on the application.
 
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