Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

[Michael Mayben]

they May be a bandaid for geometry issues, but how are they dangerous? My k5 had a stabilizer on it from the factory. Don't they just add some dampening to prevent all the jarring from the road from going directly to the steering system? It seems reasonable to me. People did clearly get carried away putting bunches of them on for cosmetic reasons back in the 90's. I'll admit I had side by side duals on my k5 for a while just because I thought it looked cool (I was young).

Ever had a damper lock up and sieze the steering system? Or "partially" stiffen and impede steering and create a jerkee motion when trying to turn the wheel?

How about a "rock ping" to the inner/outer tube of the damper cylinder which then creates a tight spot as the piston attempts to move past.

The chev had a damper because the geometry wasn't done correctly and the "factory" decided the bandaid route was cheeper than doing a proper correction. Not uncommon at all around deetrot.

Many, many steering gears, power steering pumps, ball joint sets, tie rod ends, king pins, etc. Have been replaced over the years by shops who blow smoke on the customer when the real problem is a binding steering damper.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Robert...refresh my haid...that tapered ream is 8*????? Or what?

And...what's the rough rpm you spin it for doing that particular operation. Do you drill the hole out to a constant diameter first, or just let the ream do the whole job?

Do ya have an idea of the approximate number of cuts that could be made on those knuckles with a quality version of that ream before it would need attention?

 

[Mastiff]

I'm trying to understand what I need to get the shims working right. Since I'll be coming out very close to what Robert has lift/shackle wise, it looks like 4* shims are my best bet. I'll go with the Scout II shim with the intention of drilling them out for the u-bolts. Do I need/want new centerpins? I'm not real clear on that. Would new ones be longer to extend through the shim into the perch?

I'm planning on 4" shackles.

 

[Robert Kenney]

4" bolt cl shackle will give you a bit more than 3/4 lift.

4 degree is perfect to compensate for the shackle. You don't need any for the spring lift as it won't alter caster. 6 would be to much.


Depending on your existing spring pack thickness you May need u-bolts but you May not. I waited to see and installed new ones for safety's sake.

I welded a bung into my angle spacer to pilot in to the axle perch and used the existing spring center bolt to pilot into the angle spacer.
You could buy a spring bolt with a longer head to pilot the entire thickness. I didn't have access to any so I did it my way.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Robert...refresh my haid...that tapered ream is 8*????? Or what?

And...what's the rough rpm you spin it for doing that particular operation. Do you drill the hole out to a constant diameter first, or just let the ream do the whole job?

Do ya have an idea of the approximate number of cuts that could be made on those knuckles with a quality version of that ream before it would need attention?

Reamer is 1 1/2 inches/ft or 3deg 34' 35" per side. An 8 deg hole taper won't work as the taper shank of the tre will rock and loosen up quickly.

I run at 60 rpm which is back gear and as slow as I can turn it.


For best tool life :
if you are reaming a raw hole, bore not drill just under the small end of the finished taper. Drill bits wander so the reamer will rub and wear fast.

The knuckle is easy because it is cast iron but the steering arm is a forging and tough as hell. You go to fast and the reamer will wear quick hnce the slow speed.

Tool life is a big function of patience and good cutter etiquette. Use a good chlorinated (or similar) cutting oil and not engine oil. A good hss tool should be good for many holes but it depends on the application.

 

[Mastiff]

4" bolt cl shackle will give you a bit more than 3/4 lift.

4 degree is perfect to compensate for the shackle. You don't need any for the spring lift as it won't alter caster. 6 would be to much.

The goal up front is to get the caster right. Was your goal in back to get the pinion angle correct with respect to the t-case output? On my k5 I worked to get the pinion angle to match the output angle in order to kill u-joint vibration. In the end it didn't work and I ended up with a cv driveshaft.

I just wanted to make sure you thought 4* seemed about right for the rear too, and that I understood the reasoning.

 

[Robert Kenney]

While the springs are different lengths and the shackle will alter there angle differently the 4deg will work fine in the rear also.

Front goal is two fold. Caster angle and pinion angle to remain the same as oem, because it behaved well and was inherently stable on the highway. No need to mess up a good thing. Other than the bump steer I am correcting I can take my hand off the wheel and it stays its course so long as the pavement is somewhat smooth.

On the rear my goal was to maintain the same relative output shaft to pinion angle as the oem. My setup is very quiet as I have it.

 

[Mastiff]

How's the hi-steer on the d27 going?

 

[Robert Kenney]

I have the knuckles back on and back plates cleaned up. I had to replace one brass cone because the spline was loose. At least I had some. Tomorrow I fill finish assembling it and start building the new tierod parts. I am machining the draglink attach point out of 1075 steel and threading the tierod end for the right side into it. That should allow for the longest possible drag link and best motion.

 

[Mastiff]

Robert, I May have missed it, but what brand/model tires did you find? It looks like the interco factory is down for a few months or something. jc whitney took my money for the 32x9.5x15's, but I think they just forwarded it along to the factory who is backordered... Sucks because I already have the new wheels here.

I can't find anything else in a skinny 32". The closest is 32x10.5 on 16" rim.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Easier for me to take a picture or two for you.

By the book and my tape they are 32" tall.

 

[Mastiff]

Thanks. Looks like you could have gone skinnier even if you had wanted with the lt235/85r16. Too bad for me I have four new 15" wheels in boxes. There are lots more options in 16" rims it looks like. I still might rather wait than go to the trouble and expense of returning the rims. I think it could be months though.

 

[Robert Kenney]

thanks. Looks like you could have gone skinnier even if you had wanted with the lt235/85r16.

I saw the 235 and it looked funny and would be a stretch for the rim.
The 16" rim was a conscious decision because of and along with the tire availability. I felt like this while I went back and forth. .........

 

[Mastiff]

I was surfing around and stumbled across the reverse shackle stuff. Have you considered that in your quest for a better ride?

 

[Robert Kenney]

No because I am generally happy with the Scout's ride quality. Also the rev shackle requires major irreversible mods which I refuse to do. Unless it is a bolt on/off deal I won't do it.

 

[Mastiff]

no because I am generally happy with the Scout's ride quality. Also the rev shackle requires major irreversible mods which I refuse to do. Unless it is a bolt on/off deal I won't do it.

Somehow I don't believe that... But it sounds like the rev shackle thing is more to smooth out the ride than to improve handling? Not sure. I still need to figure out why my handling seems to have gone down the tubes with the lift. I was driving through a construction zone with narrow, bumpy road in between barriers and it was kind of scary.

 

[Robert Kenney]

somehow I don't believe that...

I have said from the begining that other that bump steer which I am fixing the ride firmness is generaly ok. I have not ever cut my Scout for a mod and kept all oem parts including the springs.

I drove it as it is now to mammoth and back some 700 miles and it was ok even with the Lancaster cross wind.

 

[Robert Kenney]

I do not like to post in Robert's ride thread, so I will delete this post later today ...

Do not know much about lifts, but from reading other people's post...

You have a steering geometry problem (one "symptom" is what Robert states is bump steer) and / or an alignment problem...

A reverse shackle kit will not fix a steering geometry problem or an alignment problem.

Robert's bump steer problem is probably "manageable" to him because his lift is not as "high" as yours... But, he still plans on fixing it

Not to contradict your post Robert but mastiff actually has a slightly shorter lift then I do, by no more 1/4" from the details he has posted. I suspect as you have said that it can be dialed in fairly easily ans is a geometry issue but not caster as he has the caster correction I do. Might be a steering box lash issue. I am sure he is suffering from bump-steer though.

Mastiff - I know your box is in good working order but you might add 1/8 turn more preload to it and see if that helps.

I would like these be moved to a post to address mastiff's specific problems and that way he can get the help he needs.

 

[Mastiff]

I have said from the begining that other that bump steer which I am fixing the ride firmness is generaly ok. I have not ever cut my Scout for a mod and kept all oem parts including the springs.

I drove it as it is now to mammoth and back some 700 miles and it was ok even with the Lancaster cross wind.

I just meant that was a strange statement (only doing bolt ons) coming from a guy who machines his own stuff, but then I haven't heard you mention doing anything that isn't reversible, as you say above. Certainly no offense intended.

I think I've got 1/4" of lift on you at best, so my issue must be something a little more subtle. I won't clutter your thread with that though.

Edit: we're posting simultaneously. Now that you mention it, I guess my shackles were shorter than your, not longer. You May have 1/4" on me. Either way, that's probably not the issue.

 

[Robert Kenney]

No offence taken.

 

[Mastiff]

I saw the 235 and it looked funny and would be a stretch for the rim.
The 16" rim was a conscious decision because of and along with the tire availability. I felt like this while I went back and forth. .........

Did you just think the 235 looked too skinny? I have 35x9.5" tires on my pickup and like the look. I'm trying to decide what to do now since jc whitney canceled my tire order. Apparently, the swamper factory is down for ~6 months. I'm returning my 15" rims and am back to square one. The 235/85r16 is very close in size to the swamper I picked, but then I never saw that one in person either.

 

[Robert Kenney]

did you just think the 235 looked too skinny? I have 35x9.5" tires on my pickup and like the look. I'm trying to decide what to do now since jc whitney canceled my tire order. Apparently, the swamper factory is down for ~6 months. I'm returning my 15" rims and am back to square one. The 235/85r16 is very close in size to the swamper I picked, but then I never saw that one in person either.

Sorry dude , I missed your post. Out to lunch I guess.

I was worried to have a funny side wall bulge. I like to see the side wall a bit rounded. To get that the tread will need to be close to the rim width give or take 1/2". All I can say if give her a try, can't tell till you mount'em and bolt them on whether you will like them.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Tie rod flip is complete. I have some commitments that are high priority but after working on those all weekend I figured since Monday was a dayoff from work I'd finish this project up.

Bump steer is gone I am happy to say. I had an issue with the tierod/draglink interface hitting the shock when close to the right turn screw stop. Scared me for a bit but I was able to shift tie tierod over toward the passenger side and it goes right around the shock and hits the stop easily.

I won't build this again. Way to much machining to make my self happy. But...... Its driving again.

of course some pictures....... I've got to wire brush and paint the fa when I have time

 

[Michael Mayben]

Supernice!

So what you really mean is...ya ain't gonna put this guapo in production anytime soon?

 

[Mastiff]

That looks like a first class job. Very nice!

If you need a tester for a Dana 30 version, let me know. :d