I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

[harrywt]

harry, I absolutely think you should cut to the chase and drop your oil pan. I hate to say it, but I think upon doing so you will find evidence of cam bearing de-lamination in the form of grey sludge similar to what is seen escaping from several of your rocker stand bolts, and quite likely also non-ferrous cam bearing kibble as well. Both your valve trains and top surfaces of your heads are grotesque. Your lifters surfaces look severely dished instead of perfectly smooth as they should be. I hate to be the voice of doom, but I've been down this road before. Of course, I'd be delighted if I was wrong, but I don't think I am.

I've been thinking of just that, one thing though, the gray stuff is nut coming out of the oil gallery, and it's only by the threads, yes there is one incriminating pic of one of the stands with the oil passage clogged with gray gunk but that not the stand at the oil passage. I had thought the gray gunk was never seize, it might have been an attemppt to seal the threads as some of the holes penetrate to the cylinder, right?

I will drop the pan though. Btw, I have cleaned all of the passenger lifters now, about have were frozen completely. They all had bottoms that look like the pics of the one above, no signs of unusual wear unless the even concavity is a problem all by itself...

So in the meantime, I spun up the oil pump again while my son slowly rotated the crank, got good oil flow out of the passenger side passage (no grayness also) this is the side with the rockers removed.

Next we switched to the driver's side, this picture is after I pumped some oil and let it drain, so I call it "before"



I then spun the pump again and filled the boats







After I cleaned all of the lifters (I did them one at a time to make sure to keep parts grouped and lifters in correct bores) and rocker parts, I assembled the rockers etc, to the shaft. I noticed some possibly excessive wear on the shaft







So the big drama is what will I find in the oil pan? That has to wait a couple of days so stay tuned. Can the cam and bearings be replaced with the engine in the truck? I assume heads come off for this?

 

[Robert Kenney]

Fyi.
That gray material is common in pre unleaded fuel engines. The gray is most likely a byproduct of running leaded fuel for many years... I see this all of the time in aircraft... In most cases it can be caked in the sludge tubes to unnerving levels.
You're not going to be able to change the cam bearings with the engine in the truck. Sorry. The heads can stay on however verifying oil hole alignment would be easier with them off..
That rocker shaft wear while visible, will probably not cause any issues.

 

[harrywt]

fyi.
That gray material is common in pre unleaded fuel engines. The gray is most likely a byproduct of running leaded fuel for many years... I see this all of the time in aircraft... In most cases it can be caked in the sludge tubes to unnerving levels.
You're not going to be able to change the cam bearings with the engine in the truck.

A small ray of optimism, thanks

sorry. The heads can stay on however verifying oil hole alignment would be easier with them off..
That rocker shaft wear while visible, will probably not cause any issues.

 

[Scoutboy74]

Encouraging that you're getting lube to the top end now. Maybe you'll feel like buying a lotto ticket in a couple days. Fingers crossed.

 

[harrywt]

encouraging that you're getting lube to the top end now. Maybe you'll feel like buying a lotto ticket in a couple days. Fingers crossed.

Yes, the "boats" filled quite rapidly. But at the same time, before any dis assembly, I poured oil down onto the lifters and had my son crank the motor with the starter, the lifters seemed to pump up suggesting that they were not getting enough oil. But, I did find at least half of them were frozen when I disassembled individual lifters and cleaned them. So contradictory evidence.

By the way, is oil supposed to pass throughthe hole in the rocker arm by the pushrod and then dribble down the push rod? I careful to clean this hole and the groove in the rockers. Oiil was pouring out onto the exhaust manifold so I didn't run the drill very long.

In any event, oil pan off, asap

 

[harrywt]

fyi.
You're not going to be able to change the cam bearings with the engine in the truck. Sorry. The heads can stay on however verifying oil hole alignment would be easier with them off..

Is this because we want to have the cam vertical while installing? The service manual shows the cam horizontal

 

[Robert Kenney]

No, so you can see the cam bearing hole through the deck surface.
Fyi the rocker assembly is supplied oil from cam bearing 2 and 4 while the lifters are supplied from the rear most #5 bearing. You lifter non pump up issue is not related to the rocker assy flow. At least not directly.

 

[harrywt]

no, so you can see the cam bearing hole through the deck surface.
Fyi the rocker assembly is supplied oil from cam bearing 2 and 4 while the lifters are supplied from the rear most #5 bearing. You lifter non pump up issue is not related to the rocker assy flow. At least not directly.

Ok, so I am coming around to the idea that I have to replace the cam no matter what as the lifters are so dished in on their bottoms.

I went back over the service manual and where thy show the cam/bearing replacement procedure the crank is out of the engine as well. I get the impression from your comments that this is not necessary, right? (going to sarch forums now to see if any pics of procedure)

I have to assume that the procedure just has to be easier with the engine out of the truck and I am not against it. But just for my own edification, why would you not be able to see the bearing hole while the engine is in the truck?

Just as a bit of humor along this line, there is nothing I like better than having some modern truck lover see me cllimb up and sit on a fender of my Scout while working on the engine.

 

[Robert Kenney]

The rear most cam bearing is not accessible without removing the rear bearing cover. The rear cover is between the flywheel and block. The engine needs to come out... Sorry.
The crank can stay in. The access is a bit more difficult but by no means impossible.

 

[harrywt]

the rear most cam bearing is not accessible without removing the rear bearing cover. The rear cover is between the flywheel and block. The engine needs to come out... Sorry.
The crank can stay in. The access is a bit more difficult but by no means impossible.

Got it, thanks, starting to prep the wife for the parts bill...

Also, assuming that I don't find a pile of metal in the oil pan. What is the downside to running the engine with the worn lobes and lifters? Fyi, when I spin the oil pump I see oil flowing ontot he cam lobes, should I be able to see oil flowinf onto the lifter tops from the rear cam gallery? Is this also intermittent so I would have to rotate the crank/cam to the right position to see this flow?

 

[harrywt]

In the "lifter thread" I notice that a poster mentions putting in new lifters and not replacing the can, thought that this was a no no. Michael mayben is trading comments with him and never reacts to the new lifters/old cam arrangement.

Could new lifters hurt?

I imagine if I put in new lifters now and then some time down the road I replace the cam I'd be looking at yet another set of lifters but I think that I could live with that

 

[Robert Kenney]

New lifters on a rounded lobe, as is indicated by the concave lifter, can create a metal making machine. The contact point will be only a small area creating super high loading/ for a given area.. It will likely fail starting immediatly..

If you chose to use the old cam just use the old lifters in the same location they lived in for 35 years.

 

[harrywt]

So I got it all back together last weekend. I spun up the oil pump and got good flow over the rockers, you can see the oild draining from the rockers in the pics.

Didn't make a lot of difference in the clacking noise at the end of the day, the lifters/cam are just too worn.

Btw, I looked into the filler hole in the valve cover immediately after tirning off the engine. There was very little oil in the two visible rockers. I'm guessing that even though I got good flow with the drill motor turning the oil pump that the cam is probably a little loose in the bearing where the oil is driven up to the top.

And yes, I will drop the pan to get the final word but my feeling is that I am looking at extreme normal wear instead of a catastrophic event.

My plan is to replace the camshaft, the liters and the cam bearings as well as the main and rod bearings.

 

[FDChappie]

Sorry to hear that. I'm sure you will be a lot happier with how it runs after the work is done. Are you going to go with a stock cam?

 

[Robert Kenney]

I will make one observation... You seem to have great rocker assembly oil flow now... You have now driven it yet if I read things right.. If the valves were lacking oil before they could still be hanging a bit. Take her out for a drive of some number of miles.. Might be enough to quiet things down..

If you do pull the pan it would be good info for all if you could photo the rear cam bearing for us to determine if the lifter oil path was restricted by bearing damage..

Definitely stay with a stock cam...

 

[harrywt]

I will make one observation... You seem to have great rocker assembly oil flow now... You have now driven it yet if I read things right.. If the valves were lacking oil before they could still be hanging a bit. Take her out for a drive of some number of miles.. Might be enough to quiet things down..

If you do pull the pan it would be good info for all if you could photo the rear cam bearing for us to determine if the lifter oil path was restricted by bearing damage..

Definitely stay with a stock cam...

I have driven it a few hundred miles now, I did allude to this when I said that the lifter cleaning didn't help much but I didn't make it clear that I had been driving. The clacking is a little bit less but I still lose power as I approach 3000 revs and if I go for say ten miles of straight highway driving the motor starts to chug and pop when I try to accelerate.

I do seem to get good oil flow to the rockers, but under the controlled conditions of the cam turned to the coreect position and a drill motor turning the oil pump. If I peer through the oil filler opening immediately after turning the motor off it seems pretty dry in there.

Also, while I did see good oil flow down by the lifter socket of one lifter, I only inspected the one place, although it was of the lifter that corresponded to the loosest pushrod rocker lifter assembly, cylinder number 4. 4 and five make the most noise.

My feeling is that, consistent with the amount of wear observed on the bottoms of the lifters, the cam bearing have worn just enough that I can still see oil flow while goosing the oil pump with the dril motor, during normal operation the oil pump cannot generate enough flow/pressure to overcome leakiage past the worn bearing.

However, because of a the gunk I ceaned off the rocker assembies, it is conceivab/e that the oil galleries are aso gunked up and even if the cam bearings are ok the oill pump sti can't overcome this restriction. In tha case what coud I do? I was thinking of draining the oi, putting in ight weight oi and maybe even a quart of kerosene and then running up the engine to temp stricty iding not driving it. The fear is that I damage the very bearings that I am worried about inthe first pace

 

[Robert Kenney]

I really don't think the chugging after 10 minutes of running has anything to do with the wear. That points to a coil heating up due to either plug wires with high resistance or improper ballasting of the coil supply. I'll read back into your op and see if there is any info on the ignition.

 

[Robert Kenney]

I did see what appear to be newer plug wires and cap. That doesn't preclude wires being a problem however. The new cheaper non wire wound plug wires can go away quickly, especially the build your own universal kits..

I read you on the driving. Also I don't recommend flushing any engine with light oil/solvent. Anytime the oil film is reduced or lost completely, in the case of kerosene, the cam/lifters can go immediately metal to metal and you can understand what that would do...
the risk of dislodging 30-40 years of crud is way more detrimental than a little road time with good oil. The pickup float and oil filter have limited area and will become blocked quickly.

 

[harrywt]

I really don't think the chugging after 10 minutes of running has anything to do with the wear. That points to a coil heating up due to either plug wires with high resistance or improper ballasting of the coil supply. I'll read back into your op and see if there is any info on the ignition.

I think that I said 10 miles not minutes, but anyway let's say more descriptively 15-20 mins at 60mph the motor is really popping and not willing to accelerate. The coil is old, I have a delco cast iron body distributor, I replaced the points with a photocell type electronic ignition.

I have an aftermarket resistor that seems fine, and I do know about what it is for and the principles involved

 

[harrywt]

I read you on the driving. Also I don't recommend flushing any engine with light oil/solvent. Anytime the oil film is reduced or lost completely, in the case of kerosene, the cam/lifters can go immediately metal to metal and you can understand what that would do...
the risk of dislodging 30-40 years of crud is way more detrimental than a little road time with good oil. The pickup float and oil filter have limited area and will become blocked quickly.

I assumed that my redneck flushing idea was bad, I hoping to "flush" out a better idea...

Btw, always use 20-50w quaker state and wix filters which I change every oil change. I also put in an extra quart. This solved the clllacking issue in my son's 345