Torqueflite 727 Guapo

I rechecked my earlier observations and added a couple of
new ones. Still no drive in any gear with t-case in 2h. Fluid
level remains high in neutral. The hand lever feels good, with
crisp detents and relatively low actuating force.

There's some radial play in the shift selector shaft, enough
to see by shining a flashlight in the shift lever opening while
rocking the shift hand lever. Less than a 16th inch, probably
more than a 32nd.

Backup lights are on solid in park, reverse and neutral. They go
off in drive. Rocking the shift lever does not make them flicker.

Oddly, the neutral safety switch works correctly,
starting only in neutral and park.

Given that the fluid level does not go down in neutral it seems
fairly likely that either the pump has quit or the manual valve
has slipped out of engagement with the manual lever. I'm in
no position to fix the pump, but I might be able to fix the lever.

I've read reports of band linkages falling out when allowed to
get too loose, in that case wouldn't the fluid level rise and fall
normally in going between park and neutral?

I'm not opposed to spending a little money on gauges, but
it's hard to imagine a scenario in which pulling the pan is not
the next step. If you can think of one please tell me.

If it has to go to a shop I'd prefer it be one where the car is not
older than the most experienced employee. I'm not there yet,
but it won't be a surprise if it happens.

Thanks for reading!

Bob prohaska
 
Can't tell if it's broken yet, but the manual shift lever is clearly
disengaged from the manual spool. How it found clearance to
escape seems to be the remaining question. Apparently the
next step is to drop the valve body, which raises a couple other
questions:

I've given the factory manual a close reading and watched a few
videos. Nobody says a word about gaskets or o-rings, or other
loose parts prone to falling out when lowering the valve body.
What is there to be wary of?

The manual cautions to put a drain pan under the valve body
when removing it. How much extra fluid will come out? There's
space for only a couple quarts in my catch vessel.

I've got a few photos if anybody's curious, but they need to
be resized for posting and I don't know how to do that yet.

Thanks to everyone for reading and offering guidance.

Bob prohaska
 
Can the valve body be removed and reinstalled without disturbing
the nss? It's tough to get at, and the wiring is hardened to the
point of feeling brittle.

I can't see any obvious reason to remove it, is there some hidden
interference issue?

Thanks for reading, and any guidance.

Bob prohaska
 
No need to remove the nss to get the vb out. The shift and throttle valve linkages both need to be removed if not already. There are a series of hex head fasteners that retain the vb in the case. Don't touch the phillips and/or slotted head screws. Your catch pan should be adequate as most of the spillage will come with the fluid pan removal. The park pawl rod is held to the rooster comb with a cir-clip. You can remove the cir-clip and leave the rod in the case, but the cir-clip is easy to lose and difficult to put back in place from under the rig. The other option is to wiggle the long end out and away from the governor leaving the short end still attached to the rooster. This is kind of a ticklish process and you don't want to tug or twist on the the vb. It helps to gently rock the rear drive shaft back and forth to find a sweet spot that will release the tension on pawl rod so that the ratcheting part will disengage from the governor. The choice of how to deal with the rod will come down to what you feel most comfortable with. I can't make that decision for you, but I will say that I've always chosen option b. The accumulator spring usually drops out when the vb comes down. No biggie. Just don't lose it or forget to put it back ahead of the vb when you reinstall. The accumulator piston should have enough interference from the seal ring to keep it up in the bore. That's about it for things that go bump in the night when the vb is removed.
 
So far, so good. Vb came out with little trouble, but the
accumulator spring seems to have been removed. Can't
find it on the garage floor and didn't hear anything fall.
I've already written to Chad maycroft to learn if IHPA
has any for sale. They don't appear easy to find. The
trans seemed to work fine without it, but I'd like to put
it back if I can. Please let me know if there's a more
modern substitute.

Looks like the washer under the e-clip at the end of the
throttle position shaft was too thin. That let the selector
shaft ride up, so the lever could slip out of the spool. A
thicker washer will be a decent fix. New seals, of course.

Thanks again for all your help!

Bob prohaska
 

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Good job. Some po likely removed the accu spring as a half-assed attempt at performance enhancement. Either that or it was simply forgotten on reassembly. Probably the same evil genius who misplaced the original spacer shim washer and replaced it with that thin mint freshly pressed from chi-com. Obviously the unit is able function alright without the accu spring, but I can understand why you would want to have one in place. As common as chrysler torqueflites are, I'd be surprised to learn that most any trans repair shop doesn't have a bin of full those springs in the back room, unless they've sent them all to the scrapper to make a new prius.
 
The local napa shop flatly said they could not get the spring,
sending me to aamco around the corner. Those folks could
find a spring ($30) for a later version but weren't sure it's the
same.

I called three trans shops in the next town over (woodland, CA).
The first said "pick and pull", another said "service only" and
one suggested "transmaticparts.com". One outa three ain't bad.

Google found mopar parts overstock - shop oem chrysler, dodge and Jeep parts online, for around
$5, but it's not clear what version of a727 it fits and no hint of
shipping cost.

I think I'll bug the local chrysler dealer to check reaction unless
Chad replies yea. Then play it by ear.

The "missing" z bracket has me very confused. From the
trans side of the crossmember it really looks like something
fell off, but on the transfer case side there is clearly a z bracket
installed. Here's the front side, is something missing?

With my profound thanks.

Bob prohaska
 

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I haven't looked at the IH 727 mount in vehicle (lots of mopars and jeeps), but it looks to me like the bolts have fallen out and the mount is just moving around. The spring softens the shifts and many repair shops leave them out for a solider engagement.
 
Hi Jeff,

I spoke with the folks at IHPA, who told me that only
one z bracket is used and mine happens to be behind
the crossmember. It sure looks like something fell off
recently, but I guess not.

Much to my surprise the local dodge dealer agreed to
order an accumulator spring. I hope it turns out to fit.
$8.34, should arrive sometime today.

In the meantime I'm tidying up and checking the bands.
In 1997 somebody told me the servo to band lever
clearance should be 3/8" or slightly less. I think that's the
case now, but will do a little more measuring before assembly.
I'd prefer to disturb as little as possible given that the shifts
seemed ok and I don't want to complicate further trouble
shooting if it's needed.

Thanks for reading!

Bob prohaska
 
Well, the old rule that says "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" seems
to still apply.

I decided to replace the shift and throttle shaft seals simply
because they failed before at 16 years old and the existing
pair was 26 years old. It just seemed like a good time, even
though neither leaked at all and the rubber was still supple.

The day after the test drive I noticed a sizeable puddle, which
was rather clearly coming from the control shafts, most likely
the shift seal. So, it's apart again waiting for oem parts from
the local chrysler dealer. Had a little trouble getting the shift
seal started, so it's probably my fault, but it seemed well
seated and straight, no feelable defects after installation.

On the upside, the transmission runs and shifts just fine, the
disengaged shift-lever-to-spool-valve issue was the only thing
wrong.

Curiously, putting back the accumulator spring didn't make
much of a difference. It May have softened the neutral to
drive or reverse transition, but there's no obvious change
at normal idle speed. I've got the spring between the valve
body and accumulator piston, pushing the piston up into the
transmission case.

The manual indicates that some applications omit the spring
and a few put it _above_ the piston, later ones sometimes use
two springs, one above and one below. If anybody can shed
light it would be helpful. The transmission works well enough,
but if there's a mistake I'd like to know it. T-407, 1972, v345.


Thanks for reading,

Bob prohaska
 
Good to know the unit is functioning properly again. The accumulator spring function is for cushioning the engagement from p or n into either breakaway or manual first gear and has really no influence on the 1-2 upshift. Sounds like you oriented it properly.

As for the fluid leak, did you install the smaller, all rubber seal facing the correct direction...ie the lip pointed towards the fluid pan? Was the orifice for the metal clad seal completely clean? Did you notice a narrow groove worn into the manual shaft where the rubber portion of the metal clad seal rides? It May be a little late in the process, but if there is a groove on the manual shaft deep enough to catch a fingernail on when dragged across, it can and should be machined out with some fine grit emery cloth.
 
It looks as if napa simply gave me the wrong seal for the
shift shaft. I test fitted it on the bench and it wasn't as tight
as I expected, but it seemed tight enough. Of course, I'd long
since forgotten what the original seal felt like.

When I got the oem seal from chrysler it turned out to be
about a dozen times tighter on the shaft. Too tight for a
continuously-running shaft, but fine for the shifter. I think
that mystery is solved. The oem throttle position seal is also
tighter, though not to the same degree.

Alas, I tried to be clever and pull the shift seal into the case
with the valve body out using a bolt and two sockets.
The seal tipped before I noticed and got bent. A replacement
and a spare are on order, promised for Monday.

At this point I'm trying to decide whether to install the valve
body and put the seal in later using a socket to drive it in or
make another attempt to pull the seal in. Access from above is
lousy, but I somehow did it 25 years ago :cool: following the
factory manual. Keeping the seal square to the counterbore
while pulling turned out to be vastly harder than expected.

I did machine out a 15/16" nut to serve as a guide over the
shift shaft to help keep the driving socket roughly centered.
Finding space to swing a hammer is the next problem.

It seems that the weakest link in the whole chain is my
physical skills. They're not what they once were 8-(

thanks for reading, any any guidance!!

Bob prohaska
 
I just discovered that the sd33t 727 trans and adapter my buddy has isn't the same as the IH Scout 727 one. It's from a Jeep cj10a and it has the mopar big block pattern.

440-727.jpg[img]
 
I just discovered that the sd33t 727 trans and adapter my buddy has isn't the same as the IH Scout 727 one. It's from a Jeep cj10a and it has the mopar big block pattern.

440-727.jpg
 
The serial number on my 727 automatic transmission is 423979c91m3721 4389. Two times on the bell housing in large numerals are 573-I. Above the chrysler symbol is 3515573. I have already confirmed the engine is the original one from the line setting ticket. This is a 1972 Scout II.

How do I verify this is the original transmission?
 
That's not the serial number. That is the IH part number. Do you have the service manual for your model year of Scout? The line setting ticket doesn't have a any numbers pertaining to the transmission? Are you embarking on a concours-style restoration where every single bolt must be original equipment?
 
I will have to dig up my line setting ticket. I have one but can't find it right now. I thought I read that it was the serial number. I am not doing an original restoration, I just thought it was the original transmission. Thank you for your quick response.
 
Hello fellow IH'ers, I have been gone awhile my 74 sii has been running so well I have not had to work on it for a while. Well as with all IH's the time has come; I have a tranny leak, 99% sure it is coming from the shifter shaft. I know no big deal but I replaced it and I still have a leak. I still think it is from the shifter shaft but the shaft must be worn or has a nick in it.
So my thoughts are to replace the shaft with one out of my spare 727. But having never had the vb out my question is what bolts do I have to take out? I thinking the hex head bolts are the one holding the vb in. What do I need to worry about? Springs, balls or anything else. Plus can I remove the shifter shaft from the vb or should I swap the whole vb? Condition of my spare tranny is unknown, it should be in good shape but it has been sitting for a few years.
Any advice would be appreciated!
Thanks
 

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Yes just the hex head bolts, about 10 of them.
Now a few other things have to be removed first.
I suspect you have a manual. At least all the balls are inside the vb.

Don't forget to snap a few pics before and during
 
Thanks Craig, I have an IH manual, just have never removed a vb before and heard horror stories of springs flying everywhere.
I have read this post cover to cover and recall mm saying he wire (nylon) tied something together but now I cant find what he was referring to. I have a little time because I have to order a few parts before I start.
Thanks
ron
 
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