T407/TF 727 Band Adjustment

Good day, michael:

have a 1977 SSII, with 727 tf,345 w/2bbl. Holley. Pertronix ignition in a Holley dist.. Bought the thing in 1992 from the original owner with 52,000 original miles. I now have 262,000 on the truck. Both front and rears have traclocks. Other than that, fairly stock.

The trans. "blew" at 54,000. Don't know what happened, it just blew. Took the truck to a trans. Shop that used to do "overflow" work for International dealer. They built my trans. With a shift kit, extra clutch pack and a rv converter. Like I said, it's got 262,000 miles. I change the fluids religiously every 10,000 miles.

I do most of the work myself, but have never had the trans. Serviced re: adjusting the bands. It has always shifted extremely well and has never given me problem.

Question: in reading your thread re: adjusting the bands, will doing this "harm" anything?
 
Adjusting bands is a simple periodic maintenance deal richard!

There is actually a considerable amount of travel in the servos that apply and release the bands, so therefore there is an extended maintenance interval regarding that issue. And...I too have rebuilt these trannys that had 150k+ miles on 'em in dodge pickups used in the oil patch back in texas. Those rides had never been maintained until they started slipping and were kept in service until they wouldn't untrack. They then got a simple, standard rebuilt and continued to be abused day in and day out!

Had the tf 727 been designed so that the low/reverse band could have been adjusted externally, not doubt we would have done many and that would have become part of what we called "major tune-up" back in the old days!

I understand your reluctance to fix sumthin' that ain't broke...but if ya let the low/reverse band go too long, there is a possibility that the servo will "flop" in it's bore (most common when engine is in fast idle on a cold morning and ya drop it into reverse), or the low /reverse band simply breaks under the same condition. So then ya got a "no-go" sitch to deal with.

Once that servo figgrs out it can flop at will, then it kinda takes on the habit! Lottsa aftermarket "cures" for that, but unless yore pumpin' 500+hp through one and abusin' it severely, it won't flop unless the band gits real loose (that also allows the apply strut to jump out of it's seat and then the band can't actuate at all).

The low/reverse band takes all the abuse due to normal driving patterns!

Great question, thanks for bringing this up!
 
Ok my tranny has been acting funny this month. When I accelerate it seems to downshift then slip between the 2 gears. I dropped the pan and saw a few metal slivers and no black gunk in this one. Would a band ajustment bring her back to normal operations?
 
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johnnyc said:
ok my tranny has been acting funny this month. When I accelerate it seems to downshift then slip between the 2 gears. I dropped the pan and saw a few metal slivers and no black gunk in this one. Would a band ajustment bring her back to normal operations?
Click to expand...

That is always the first thing to do, along with replacing the filter and of course the oil. Part of normal periodic maintenance, if the tranny is treated to good times onna regular basis, these can last virtually forever without an overhaul (if not thoroughly thrashed!).

Your symptoms sure indicate a band adjustment is needed, especially if this has come on somewhat gradually over time and become a bit worse week-to-week if used as a dd.

And does it do this only when cold?, only when hot?, or anytime?
 
Mm, thanks for the info on servicing a 727. You had answered my previous post about two month ago, and I am finally getting around to doing this adjustment. (finally got the nerve)

I have a couple of questions:

you refer to 72 inch/pounds for the two adjustments (kick down and reverse). I have a ft. Pounds wrench, what is the correct setting for this? Or did I miss it in your write-up?

Also, I have about 150,000 on the 727 and was wondering, will the "2 1/2" turns adjustment still work? Or do I take into consideration the wear of the bands? Or did I miss that too?
 
I think I got the magic # (the ft/pounds inch/pounds thing)

it is 6 foot pounds for the adjustment (72 inch lbs.), right?
 
richard said:
I think I got the magic # (the ft/pounds inch/pounds thing)

it is 6 foot pounds for the adjustment (72 inch lbs.), right?
Click to expand...

Sorry I didn't respond, we're building a tranny and shooting a video of the process right now!

Yes,...72in/lbs = 6 ft.lbs.

The band adjustment "specs" are always the same, no matter if new parts are installed, or servicing a 200k unit! The only time you use a different spec...is for the later variations or if the performance/aftermarket band replacement calls a different spec.
 
I have failed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't find any auto parts store that has a "inch/pounds " wrench. Not a frickin' one!! Autozone, pepboys, not even napa!!.

My torkwrench only goes down to 10 inch/pounds. Also, you were right about the socket. I guess I wil have to track one down.

Anyway, I dropped the pan, checked the residue (not much), only a thin "grey" film on the pan. Very clean fluid though. Buttoned her back up, filled her up and went driving to check her out.

I have never had a problem with shifting. When I had the tf rebuild (circa 1992), I had a rv converter put in, a shift kit, and an extra set of clutches (6 vs. 5). I have about 150,000 miles on it, have changed the tranny juice every 10k-15k miles.
I went back to the shop tha built it, told them this morning about my tranny, they remembered me!!!. They told me I could bring it in for an adjustment/servicing ($125.00). I said that it ran alright as of now and if it does, is it needing a servicing? They said if it has no problems, leave it alone.

The shift is clean and crisp! Also, looking at your pictures, you have about 1/4 to 1/2 inch of bolt stud showing above the lock nut. I have about 1/4 max!! I thought about just taking of the lock nut and doing the adjusting thing, and then putting back the lock nut.

Anyway, locg story short, I would like to "adjust" the tranny based on your previous posting. Sounbds like good common sense. My question is: the 72 inch pounds thing: will "feeling it" at about "less than 10 inch pounds" work? Or are you dead set on the 6 foot pds/ 72 inch pounds thing??

Three hours under my ss2 is very relaxing!!! Unfortunately, I have a wife that wonders why I love to lie on my back so much, on the cold cement!!!
 
Richard, this adjustment does require the precision of the inch/lb wrench, or in the absence of that, a ft/lb wrench that will adjust low enough. Guesstimating won't get it. The amount of adjustment bolt protrusion visible is directly proportional to how worn the band is. This will be different for every transmission and is not an alternate means for adjusting the band tension. The shortcut is the shortcut, and that's the procedure outlined by mm. Do you have a harbur fake tulz or any specialty type tool store in your area? I had the same trouble locating an inch/lb torque wrench. The best I was able to find was a 3/8 inch drive ft/lb clicker wrench that starts at 5 ft/lbs. That was an hft special. It's a far cry from mayben's ultra-hip, old-skule inch/lb wrench, which I had the privilege of caressing in my own hands just a few hours ago,:icon_heartbeat: but it gets the job done. Wrench envy suks!
 
Yes, the hf "micrometer-style" torque wrench will work just fine!

The 72 in./lb. Setting is to simply provide a universal standard that is measurable for "pre-load" for mechanics that deal in this arena. Any slushbox that uses "bands" (late model electronic boxes do not), use the same process, this is not unique to the tf 727 alone!

Band adjustment is just like fluid/filter change, it's a maintenance procedure so that the tranny won't fail due to long term wear without compensation! With proper maintenance, these units can easily go 200k or longer in daily service! Once a band (or clutch) starts slipping, the tremendous heat generated spikes and from then on, it's downhill in fairly short order.

And there were several different length adjusting screws used, so "stickout" is not an indicator of proper tensioning or "wear" of the band actuation system on any box.

The old skool torque wrenches are known in the trade as "deflecting beam" design are very serviceable if handled carefully over the years. For those of ya interested in 'em, just goggle-up "deflecting beam torque wrench", sears used to sell 'em for $12.95 before harbor freight started killing sears/craftsman brand!

Scoutboy, bryce, and I had a huge long dead politician's weekend (great fun and male bonding took place!!!) trying to wrap the 727 rebuild video, but we ran into quite a few problems regarding scoutboy's core that had been previously botched. I learned much new stuff myself I'd never encountered before, and the failure of that trans was the result of someone installing the wrong/butchered kickdown servo in the past. This deal is compounded by the fact that the trannys we used for the teardown portion of the shoot are not the same unit as we are using to rebuild for scoutboy, and I did not tear that one down from the beginning, so we're finding schnizz here that trever did not know anything about when he pulled it down, otherwise we would have been able to correct the problems outside of the video shoot weeks ago! This is all part of the educational process, and for me, that began nearly 50 years ago and continues to this day!

So...we did not wrap this project afterall, now we gotta spend one more weekend completing the video shoot and scoutboy's tranny before the finished product is posted for reference.
 
Hey guys,
great post and very informative. Need some help with my 727 tranny - my Dad rebuilt it, new bands, clutches, steels, etc. Turbo action valve body. We installed it in the car, filled it up with fluid, ran it through the gears, checked the fluid in nuetral and made sure it was full - the issue is that it would barely move in drive or in reverse - you could rev it way up and it would start to creep forward or in reverse, but it had to be revved up to do it. It would break the tires lose if you absolutely hammered on it, but then again would barely move if you revved it up to say 2500 or 3000 rpm. Any thoughts? The tranny is out of the car again and want to try to figure out what it is before putting it back in. I adjusted the low/reverse band per the instructions on here and it turned in about 4 turns to start with - is that enough to make this happen? Something wrong with the valve body, or something get put back wrong? Thanks
 
Since you refer to "car" I'm assuming you are running this trans inna chrysler vehicle or amc of some sort?

I'd need to know how the transmission was built, what components were used, etc. Some of the drag race friction materials must have an entirely different setup done in band adjustment, and some of that stuff is not suitable for street/trail use either.

I'm not familiar with the turbo action valve body variations, but I'm fairly sure they do about the same type of mods as done by B&M, transgo, etc., these units have all had valve body mods made since they were first introduced and there is nothing new under the sun!

Also, which valve body you describe is the one installed, there are quite a few variations?

Unless the band adjustment callouts for the friction materials installed and/or the valve body indicate anything different, I'd use the adjustment specs I've provided. If the tranny was a stocker, then the condition you describe could certainly be caused by too much band clearance.
 
Re: Dana/Spicer Transfer Case Guapo

Michael, I was reading your post on adjusting the tranny bands for the 727. Now I am in the process of adjusting my bands after my truck would not go into reverse.. Well while I was trying to adjust the rear band the adj. Screw just went all the way in and I heard something go up..needless to say I cannot torque the screw bc it just keeps going in just with my hand................please help????

Any advice is appreciated......



I have a 99 dodge ram 1500 I think the tranny is a 47re
 
Re: Dana/Spicer Transfer Case Guapo

guillermo said:
michael, I was reading your post on adjusting the tranny bands for the 727. Now I am in the process of adjusting my bands after my truck would not go into reverse.. Well while I was trying to adjust the rear band the adj. Screw just went all the way in and I heard something go up..needless to say I cannot torque the screw bc it just keeps going in just with my hand................please help????

Any advice is appreciated......



I have a 99 dodge ram 1500 I think the tranny is a 47re
Click to expand...

Moved this thread to a more appropriate sub-forum!

Based upon your description of what happened, either the low/reverse band broke (the area where the strut engages will break off the cast iron band unit), or...the apply strut fell out.

Usually if the strut falls out, it's because the band was so loose there was way too much "slack" in the apply system,...or the band had cracked but not yet parted.

Trying to re-install the strut without tearing down the trans can be done but it's like performing orthoscopic surgery and is very tedious. Normally the struts simply don't just fall out of position, if there was enough slack to allow that, then bend is broken or the apply servo is hanging.

You need to find the strut, it's a piece of hardened steel, about 1" by 1-1/4" and 3/16" thick. If the anchor of the band is broken off, you should be able to see the break with a flashlight.

Bummer!
 
I dont see any breaks or cracks in the lever. I did hear something go up when I was trying to adjust the screw. Now it is completely loose...I put it back while torquing with only my hand. Now it goes in reverse but it doesn't shift past third gear... I haven't touch the front band yet. Now if you could tell me a little about how to do that surgery. Or do you think it would be better idea to take it down and rebuild it?...the problem started really bad after I tried hauling a really heavy trailer. Please help me. I am kinda stuck w/o a vehicle at the moment...


Thanks alot
 
Re: Dana/Spicer Transfer Case Guapo

What exactly is "the apply servo". And where is the located????also the lever moves freely and on the opposite end is like a ball joint that pushes something up and in, (like a cone) when I move it. And I got it back out by putting the truck in reverse. But it goes up again with the push of my finger.....is this supposed to happen? I dont really want to take the tranny all the way off.. If I could fix it without doing so I think it would be a lot easier for me....thanks again...
 
Hey micheal how you doing?

The 79 Scout 727 trans was rebuilt stock by a good shop about 2 yrs ago. It seems strong but it seems to slightly runaway rev/slip a little after several hours of driving only when I downshift manually from 3 to 2 during the crossing of the sierra Nevada.

Is this normal behavior for a 727 without a shift kit? What could this symptom indicate?

I aim to do a tranny service this weekend and will attempt to adjust the bands according to this thread. It has about 5-7k miles on it since the rebuild and this will be the first tranny service since.


I only rode this 727 hard once about a year ago pulling a uhaul 6x12 with a small Ford tractor loaded(about 5000 lbs total). The rig barely made it up a 18% 2 mile long grade in first gear wot turning about 2000rpm at 10mph with 3.07 gears. If I recall correctly though the runaway downshift issue was prevalent before this towing misadventure. Fluid smell checked ok and is still bright red.
 
rusty Scout said:
hey micheal how you doing?

The 79 Scout 727 trans was rebuilt stock by a good shop about 2 yrs ago. It seems strong but it seems to slightly runaway rev/slip a little after several hours of driving only when I downshift manually from 3 to 2 during the crossing of the sierra Nevada.

Is this normal behavior for a 727 without a shift kit? What could this symptom indicate?

I aim to do a tranny service this weekend and will attempt to adjust the bands according to this thread. It has about 5-7k miles on it since the rebuild and this will be the first tranny service since.


I only rode this 727 hard once about a year ago pulling a uhaul 6x12 with a small Ford tractor loaded(about 5000 lbs total). The rig barely made it up a 18% 2 mile long grade in first gear wot turning about 2000rpm at 10mph with 3.07 gears. If I recall correctly though the runaway downshift issue was prevalent before this towing misadventure. Fluid smell checked ok and is still bright red.
Click to expand...

Yes, what you describe is kinda "normal" with a manual downshift. That can be eliminated by maintaining heavy throttle pressure when manually downshifting. If you back out of the throttle when downshifting, the valve body gets kinda stupid mechanically speaking for an instant since it's not designed for that type scenario, go ahead and keep throttle applied when doing this, the tranny will bang hard and it luvs that kinda treatment. The "slip" is not good as that leads to excessive heat generation.

A shift reprogramming kit normally takes care of this anomaly as it corrects the designed-in "overlap" and cushioning effect that granny likes to have in her slushbox when it shifts!

Band adjustment at this point is simply part of preventative maintenance, and that way you will know it's correct for the future.
 
I found that a 11/32 12 pt box wrench will fit the bolt head to adjust the bands. Only need to find a 3/8 drive socket in that size.
 
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