T407/TF 727 Band Adjustment

Hey guys,
great post and very informative. Need some help with my 727 tranny - my Dad rebuilt it, new bands, clutches, steels, etc. Turbo action valve body. We installed it in the car, filled it up with fluid, ran it through the gears, checked the fluid in nuetral and made sure it was full - the issue is that it would barely move in drive or in reverse - you could rev it way up and it would start to creep forward or in reverse, but it had to be revved up to do it. It would break the tires lose if you absolutely hammered on it, but then again would barely move if you revved it up to say 2500 or 3000 rpm. Any thoughts? The tranny is out of the car again and want to try to figure out what it is before putting it back in. I adjusted the low/reverse band per the instructions on here and it turned in about 4 turns to start with - is that enough to make this happen? Something wrong with the valve body, or something get put back wrong? Thanks
 
Since you refer to "car" I'm assuming you are running this trans inna chrysler vehicle or amc of some sort?

I'd need to know how the transmission was built, what components were used, etc. Some of the drag race friction materials must have an entirely different setup done in band adjustment, and some of that stuff is not suitable for street/trail use either.

I'm not familiar with the turbo action valve body variations, but I'm fairly sure they do about the same type of mods as done by B&M, transgo, etc., these units have all had valve body mods made since they were first introduced and there is nothing new under the sun!

Also, which valve body you describe is the one installed, there are quite a few variations?

Unless the band adjustment callouts for the friction materials installed and/or the valve body indicate anything different, I'd use the adjustment specs I've provided. If the tranny was a stocker, then the condition you describe could certainly be caused by too much band clearance.
 
Re: Dana/Spicer Transfer Case Guapo

Michael, I was reading your post on adjusting the tranny bands for the 727. Now I am in the process of adjusting my bands after my truck would not go into reverse.. Well while I was trying to adjust the rear band the adj. Screw just went all the way in and I heard something go up..needless to say I cannot torque the screw bc it just keeps going in just with my hand................please help????

Any advice is appreciated......



I have a 99 dodge ram 1500 I think the tranny is a 47re
 
Re: Dana/Spicer Transfer Case Guapo

guillermo said:
michael, I was reading your post on adjusting the tranny bands for the 727. Now I am in the process of adjusting my bands after my truck would not go into reverse.. Well while I was trying to adjust the rear band the adj. Screw just went all the way in and I heard something go up..needless to say I cannot torque the screw bc it just keeps going in just with my hand................please help????

Any advice is appreciated......



I have a 99 dodge ram 1500 I think the tranny is a 47re
Click to expand...

Moved this thread to a more appropriate sub-forum!

Based upon your description of what happened, either the low/reverse band broke (the area where the strut engages will break off the cast iron band unit), or...the apply strut fell out.

Usually if the strut falls out, it's because the band was so loose there was way too much "slack" in the apply system,...or the band had cracked but not yet parted.

Trying to re-install the strut without tearing down the trans can be done but it's like performing orthoscopic surgery and is very tedious. Normally the struts simply don't just fall out of position, if there was enough slack to allow that, then bend is broken or the apply servo is hanging.

You need to find the strut, it's a piece of hardened steel, about 1" by 1-1/4" and 3/16" thick. If the anchor of the band is broken off, you should be able to see the break with a flashlight.

Bummer!
 
I dont see any breaks or cracks in the lever. I did hear something go up when I was trying to adjust the screw. Now it is completely loose...I put it back while torquing with only my hand. Now it goes in reverse but it doesn't shift past third gear... I haven't touch the front band yet. Now if you could tell me a little about how to do that surgery. Or do you think it would be better idea to take it down and rebuild it?...the problem started really bad after I tried hauling a really heavy trailer. Please help me. I am kinda stuck w/o a vehicle at the moment...


Thanks alot
 
Re: Dana/Spicer Transfer Case Guapo

What exactly is "the apply servo". And where is the located????also the lever moves freely and on the opposite end is like a ball joint that pushes something up and in, (like a cone) when I move it. And I got it back out by putting the truck in reverse. But it goes up again with the push of my finger.....is this supposed to happen? I dont really want to take the tranny all the way off.. If I could fix it without doing so I think it would be a lot easier for me....thanks again...
 
Hey micheal how you doing?

The 79 Scout 727 trans was rebuilt stock by a good shop about 2 yrs ago. It seems strong but it seems to slightly runaway rev/slip a little after several hours of driving only when I downshift manually from 3 to 2 during the crossing of the sierra Nevada.

Is this normal behavior for a 727 without a shift kit? What could this symptom indicate?

I aim to do a tranny service this weekend and will attempt to adjust the bands according to this thread. It has about 5-7k miles on it since the rebuild and this will be the first tranny service since.


I only rode this 727 hard once about a year ago pulling a uhaul 6x12 with a small Ford tractor loaded(about 5000 lbs total). The rig barely made it up a 18% 2 mile long grade in first gear wot turning about 2000rpm at 10mph with 3.07 gears. If I recall correctly though the runaway downshift issue was prevalent before this towing misadventure. Fluid smell checked ok and is still bright red.
 
rusty Scout said:
hey micheal how you doing?

The 79 Scout 727 trans was rebuilt stock by a good shop about 2 yrs ago. It seems strong but it seems to slightly runaway rev/slip a little after several hours of driving only when I downshift manually from 3 to 2 during the crossing of the sierra Nevada.

Is this normal behavior for a 727 without a shift kit? What could this symptom indicate?

I aim to do a tranny service this weekend and will attempt to adjust the bands according to this thread. It has about 5-7k miles on it since the rebuild and this will be the first tranny service since.


I only rode this 727 hard once about a year ago pulling a uhaul 6x12 with a small Ford tractor loaded(about 5000 lbs total). The rig barely made it up a 18% 2 mile long grade in first gear wot turning about 2000rpm at 10mph with 3.07 gears. If I recall correctly though the runaway downshift issue was prevalent before this towing misadventure. Fluid smell checked ok and is still bright red.
Click to expand...

Yes, what you describe is kinda "normal" with a manual downshift. That can be eliminated by maintaining heavy throttle pressure when manually downshifting. If you back out of the throttle when downshifting, the valve body gets kinda stupid mechanically speaking for an instant since it's not designed for that type scenario, go ahead and keep throttle applied when doing this, the tranny will bang hard and it luvs that kinda treatment. The "slip" is not good as that leads to excessive heat generation.

A shift reprogramming kit normally takes care of this anomaly as it corrects the designed-in "overlap" and cushioning effect that granny likes to have in her slushbox when it shifts!

Band adjustment at this point is simply part of preventative maintenance, and that way you will know it's correct for the future.
 
I found that a 11/32 12 pt box wrench will fit the bolt head to adjust the bands. Only need to find a 3/8 drive socket in that size.
 
Gotta ask this one. I've been working 6-7 days a week and wanted to do my band adjustment and filter/gasket/atf change. Got everything I needed from Jeff and then got too busy. Started calling around quzzing all the tranny shops with all my new found knowledge and the one guy that I found to be knowledgable with an "a" bbb rating said he would do the forward band adjustment for free but would not be willing to do a filter/gasket/atf change. Basically, because I have no clue about the previous 31 years of maintenance and the transmission shifts fine, he says that the new oil with all the detergents will probably break up some of the varnish in the system and cause a rebuild. That and the reverse park band shouldn't need any adjustment. After reading through this thread a few times and just all the old advice (if you haven't changed your atf in a 100k, don't) type of comments I'm starting to second guess myself. It seems like this situation was alluded to in this thread. Any thoughts. Transmission shifts fine. Slips in second gear for two seconds when it's below freezing. Put it in neutral while warming up and has stopped. Atf is red and doesn't smell like the pits of hell, but I do have two gallons of swepco in my garage now. So do I do the whole r&r or just do the forward bands and have a lifteime supply of fill up atf?
 
I disagree with your tranny guy completely regarding the tf 727 and tranny/band service.

These units were designed to be serviced every 30k miles or so. Most never got touched at all. I've done "first service" on these same units at 150k+ miles and never run into any sort of issue after the fact.

If one of these transmissions is allowed to grossly overheat and "foul" the oil, they die! They don't continue to simply plug along. Just because the oil is "dark" does not mean there is anything truly wrong, it just means that at least once it overheated. But if it's still working now, then it will work once the service operation is performed if the service is performed correctly.

For a complete novice (but with needed tools), this May take most of a day to perform since you are going to also find other work to do once ya spend time bottomside! For a shop with a lift and oil drain assembly, this is a maximum 2 hour job.

Don't sweat it man! You have already worked through two major issues of po-scruud service jobs that had much to be delt with. A tranny service is nothing after what you have already done!

But please, do not put this operation off! If you do, the next thing we'll hear from ya is "where did reverse go this morning??".
 
Always the voice of reason. It's shaping up for a full weekend so about the only things I lack are the eight point sockets and some permatex #97. I'll get it done. :icon_eh2:
 
I'm committed now. This is what I am looking at with the pan dropped. I have to run to get a set of eight point sockets but it appears that at least the fluid, gasket and filter have been changed recently. Really this is a question because after reading this thread and the guapo thread about eighty times, I expected more sediment and the fluid to be more milky in the bottom. To my inexperienced eye this thing looks spotless for a thirty two year old transmission. There was no sediment at the bottom and very little of the minute size of metal flakes also. The true test will be where the bands are set, and even if this was done the week before I bought the truck, at least now I know where I am at in the maintenance cycle. So 30k from here I do it again. Mike, what are your thoughts?

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michael mayben said:
but please, do not put this operation off! If you do, the next thing we'll hear from ya is "where did reverse go this morning??".
Click to expand...

Found this thread too late but I did put off having my tranny serviced and after a while of hearing a clunk when putting it in reverse.... I don't have reverse any more! I lost it at the mall and after giving up on waiting for the car parked in the stall in front of my Scout to leave so I could jump the curb and drive home, I put the Scout in neutral, put my back against the grill and began to crab walk backwards/push the Scout out of the stall, I would walk/push a little then pop up to look if any traffic was coming and walk/push a little more, take another peek....then I saw a guy and his girlfriend come out of barnes' and noble books. The guy looked at me like I was nuts and asked , "what are you doing?" I told him, "reversing." the guy got into his car with his girlfriend and drove away-I guess my wise ass answer didn't earn any help........

Moral of the story:
service or have your tranny serviced a regular intervals and wise ass answers will not earn help from strangers.....

I will be revisiting this thread when we get our tax return so I can finally service my poor scouts tranny, for now I'm stuck tactically parking so I don't have to reverse or doing my kooky crab walk reverse....:out:

thanks to all who contributed to this informative thread.

Aloha,
jonesy
 
It appears that the bands have been adjusted albeit incorrectly. The park/reverse band was barley one and a half in and the pita forward band was about one in or a little over, so took everything to 72"/lb and backed out two and a quarter. Sealed the pan, filled her up and took her around the block. Had the wife do it too. So (knock on wood) it feels like it is shifting smoother and pulling steadier, nothing dramatic with this one but from the above posted I think this May have been done in the not too far past. Now I hope have her set right but it hasn't broke down. :eek6:
 
So this wasn't so bad was it??

And the transmission has been serviced in the past, that appears to be a solid rubber pan gasket.

So what you have done is one more of the "certification" issues regarding this rig. We never know what we actually have until we take the risk to find out!

Next??
 
Brakes, t-handle on back lift glass, horn, blinker cam, front end, gas tank, sending unit and float, electric fuel pump, double fuel filter setup, spring bushings, man does it ever end :out:
 
Hey fellas! I have questions. Just want to make sure I understand this correctly as I would like to service my bands this weekend as I need a filter change anyways and have the supplies ready. Both adjusting bolts get hand tightened in until they stop, then torqued past that to 72 inch/pounds then backed back out 2 and a half turns and voila, im good to go? I get a clunk when I put it in reverse, will this solve that issue by chance. If not what do I need to look for. It has all new u-joints, as I thought that was the issue originally. Also, is there a write up on the correct way to adjust the kickdown, that a dumb blonde guy would understand. My Scout shifts out very early and rarely kicks down unless im going really slow. Very annoying I gotta say. As always, the write-ups here are amazing, and thanks for any help.

K, going through the guapo thread now. Please disregard the adjustment question. Mm, you are the man!
 
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Keep in mind that the "back off turns" for the band adjustment screws are for a transmission that is a total stocker. If any other transmission service has been done in the past that involved aftermarket bands or modifications to the valve body, the
back-off" specs could be a bit different.

Is the difference in 1/4 of a turn gonna be an issue??? Not at all. But there is a very fine line between right and either too loose or too tight.

The "clunk" sound you currently hear with reverse engagement could very well be related to a low/reverse band that is significantly "loose". That is due to the fact that band has to move much further when activated. Let that go too long and the band will break and/or the operational strut will fall out of position. By paying very close attention to the band adjustment before actually making the change, that gives ya an idea of what could have happened.
 
I also have a weird shimmy kinda feel when I get on the gas a lil hard sometimes, was thinking maybe the filter was clogged and havin a hard time getting fluid pressure or something. Dont know if that even makes sense. Thats why I am actually getting into it this weekend. Not being anything close to a tranny guy, that was my first guess, but after all the reading im thinking that May be from needing band adjustments also. :icon_eh:. Sure wish I had all your great IH knowledge, but being a member of this forum is the second best thing. Thanks so much Mike! :thumbsup:
 
That "shimmy" feeling is something related to the entire 727 installation system used in both Scout II and fullsize rigs.

The fullsize stuff seems to have it in a much more pronounced fashion than a Scout II however. I have some definite ideas "why" it is there but no way to actually prove that without making some serious modifications to the entire transmission/transfer case mounting systems.

The fullsize stuff has the divorced transfer case with an entirely different engine and transmission mounting system compared to a Scout II.

On the other hand...is this "shudder" an issue? I don't think so at all, it is just part of the vehicle and we live with it!

This is not to say that a transfer case, driveshaft, engine mount, frame, crossmember can't certainly impact this whole deal. But once everything is in good order and the shimmy is still noticed at points, then we just ignore it.
 
Hi all!

I have a -74 charger with a 360 engine and my problem is that my tranny will not go manually into 1st gear (via shift selector). It works excellent in "d" and shifts through all 3 gears and can manually be placed into all other gears, but not 1st gear. I have checked the linkage, and that is not the problem. The selector lever on the tranny itself will not move into 1st position. May this be an band adjustment issue or is it something damaged inside my tranny?
I really hope that you can give me an advice!

Best regards
halvar, norway
 
harley7985 said:
hi all!

I have a -74 charger with a 360 engine and my problem is that my tranny will not go manually into 1st gear (via shift selector). It works excellent in "d" and shifts through all 3 gears and can manually be placed into all other gears, but not 1st gear. I have checked the linkage, and that is not the problem. The selector lever on the tranny itself will not move into 1st position. May this be an band adjustment issue or is it something damaged inside my tranny?
I really hope that you can give me an advice!

Best regards
halvar, norway
Click to expand...

Checking the shift linkage would be the first diagnostic effort, you have done that and the shifter system isn't the problem.

The next step would be to drain the oil and drop the pan. After doing that, when you look "up" at the shift column on the valve body, you will see a plastic crescent-shaped item (either black or green in color). That is the control device for the neutral safety switch which is screwed into the side of the transmission case. It is riveted to the metallic portion of that shift selector.

My suggestion is that the plastic segment has broken (most likely through it's rivet holes) and still partially mounted to the arm but has fallen out of position and is preventing the shift selector from going into the manual first shift position.

Some transmission supply warehouses in the u.s. Do carry an aftermarket replacement for that part. The shift lever assembly will have to be removed from the valve body in order to replace it however.

This picture shows the part (black in color) mounted to a valve body sitting on the bench, looking down from the top.
 

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I had a '73 t'all with the 392 and 727 and divorced t/c. After having that one rebuilt by a very reputable shop (did my other stuff too), and having the low gearset installed, it had that shudder coming off the line. He worked with it a while and observed that it was because the t/c's mounting setup lets the t/c hang relatively free like a pendulum. He recommended that a simple brace from the t/c to the frame would fix it, as that was also a complaint with dodges, and the solution.
 
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