Scout II Doesn't Always Start!

[ScoutII22]

Just after I posted that last post. I tried it again. It started, and the exact same thing happened. Except now instead of getting zero spark, it tries to start, for about 1 second, then goes back to just turning over

 

[Scoutboy74]

I really think you should stop trying to run it until you've corrected the funky wiring. I know it sorta kinda works sometimes, but that obviously isn't good enough. You May be playing with fire here, quite literally. Whoever installed that remote relay should have consulted for wiring advice. Your net is open too wide right now. You undoubtedly have a number of contributing issues to correct. The key to successful automotive diagnosis and repair is to keep your focus narrow and deal with one system or micro-system at a time until you are certain everything is as it should be. Then you can move on to the next weak link in the chain. The shotgun approach wastes time and money. So, focus on the battery to relay to starter circuitry first and forget about the carb for now.

 

[ScoutII22]

Okay, so after I re-wire the relay. Whats next?

 

[ScoutII22]

Okay if you look at the picture of my relay, do you have any idea what that black wire is coming from the 'I' terminal.

 

[Scoutboy74]

okay, so after I re-wire the relay. Whats next?

We'll get there. Patience grasshoppa. One thing at a time.

okay if you look at the picture of my relay, do you have any idea what that black wire is coming from the 'I' terminal.

It has a factory ring terminal on it. I have an idea, but I hate to guess and be wrong. Every stock wire in your Scout had a circuit id number printed onto it at both ends. Usually those numbers are worn off or illegible by now, but you might get lucky. If you see a number on it and can read it clearly, post it, and I can id it for you. Usually there are no shortcuts for tracing and labeling the wires yourself as you go. Its painstaking work, but guessing doesn't get the job done.

 

[ScoutII22]

The wire reads "cz17" and on the relay, does it matter which side the battery goes into and comes out of? Like does the battery have to go into the left side and come out the right?

 

[ScoutII22]

The wire says "cz17" on it in white. I re wired everything to the way you told me. Whats next? Try and start it? Im not sure if this messsage already got posted, it says it didnt, so im gonna re do it.

 

[Scoutboy74]

Okay, circuit 17 is the wire from your ignition switch that formerly ran down to the 's' terminal down on your starter solenoid. It should now be attached to the 's' or 'I' terminal of the Ford piece depending on how it is labeled. Could I see some pics of the work you've done? Think of me as your supervisor or inspector. I need to confirm some things with you and then sign off on what you've done before you can hit the key again.

 

[ScoutII22]

The cz17 wire, never ran down to the s terminal on the starter. The only wire that ran to the s terminal on the starter is the yellow wire I mentioned earlier, which is now running to the s terminal on the relay, from the s terminal on the starter. I'm going to take pictures right now and I will post them.

 

[ScoutII22]

Here you go.

 

[Scoutboy74]

Okay, you're getting there, but I do want you to make a couple adjustments. First, that 17 wire did originally go down to the starter solenoid like I said, before the Ford relay was installed. Someone re-routed it and added those yellow wires thinking they had hooked up the remote relay correctly...epic fail. Anyway, are either of the small terminals on that relay labeled as 's'? That is the post where wire 17 needs to be connected now. If that's where you have it, great.
Next, that yellow wire running from the solenoid 's' terminal up to the right hand small terminal on the relay can be removed. I see that you made a jumper wire as per the diagram, but it is kinda small gauge. That's my bad, as I did not specify to use a 10 gauge chunk for that. What you have will work for now, but just keep it in mind if/when you get bored to make up a new jumper with thicker gauge wire.
Now I want to focus on those two wires as seen in your third pic that you moved from the solenoid up to the relay. It looks like at least one of them May have been heat damaged and wrapped in a black tape bandaid. It probably wouldn't hurt to snip off a few inches on both if there is enough slack and start over. Also, the one wire at least appears to still have some markings on it. If you can pull numbers from either or both before you snip, please do.
That should take care of it. Be careful when you re-connect your battery. Unhook it quickly if you notice any sparks or see/smell smoke. Don't leave it hooked up unattended for the time being. Just wedge the clamp on the battery post snugly by hand, but not so tight that you can't twist it off quickly by hand. Who knows what other po electrical gems could be lying in wait. If things tolerate being hooked up without making sparks and smoke, go ahead and try starting it. Don't get too upset if it still runs like garbage. Remember, we've fixed an issue. That doesn't mean we've fixed every issue. Be prepared to deal with others in a similar, methodical fashion.

 

[ScoutII22]

Okay, fixing all that right now, the 17 wire was already connected to the s on the relay, so I'm good there. The black wire with the tape around it is a '7' wire. And the other black one next to it just says 'fuseable link'

 

[Scoutboy74]

Circuit 7 is the wire that runs up to the #2 terminal of your alternator. The other wire would be circuit 14 which is the main power feed that travels through the bulkhead for distribution into the cab.

 

[ScoutII22]

So are those two wires correct in being where they are?

 

[Scoutboy74]

Yes. You May need to flip flop your battery cables at the the relay. I'm not sure if that order makes a difference or not. Try it the way you have it first and if it does something crazy like engage the starter immediately or you can't get the starter to engage, disco the battery, do the flip flop and try it again.

 

[ScoutII22]

This is the new fixed set up. I started it and its running right now.

 

[Scoutboy74]

Cool! Notice any difference? Started easier...the same...worse? Running better...the same...worse? Can you shut it off?

 

[ScoutII22]

Started the same, running the same, and within my last post and right now, it shut right off without dying, its like I turned off the key, but I didnt. It just turns off. And now it wont start back up. When I crank it, acts like its about to start but then just stops. It catches and stops.

 

[ScoutII22]

Well actually now it just cranks and cranks and I dont believe I am getting spark.

 

[Scoutboy74]

Okay. We're moving our focus to a new area. I have some questions for you. In your first post, you mentioned that you changed out all the spark plugs. Which brand did you use, what gap did you set them to, and did you do them one at a time? Could you please snap some pics of your carb minus the air filter canister from both sides?

 

[ScoutII22]

I used champion spark plugs, I bought them pre set from like autozone, when they type in 79 International Scout II 345 5.6 spark plugs, the champions came up so I bought those. But the thing is that I am not getting spark from the coil.
Could this be a ignition switch problem, or maybe a distributor wire problem?
Ill get on those pictures of the carb right now.

 

[Scoutboy74]

I'm not ready to jump to the conclusion that the coil isn't making spark. This could be a problem with your choke function and/or fuel delivery. Champion spark plugs are total junk. They fuel foul extremely easily. Once upon a time they May have been alright, but that was decades ago. I highly recommend you switch to either ngk 3332 or autolite 85 with minimum gap of .035 max gap of .040 at your earliest convenience. Buy a feeler gauge too if you don't have one.

 

[ScoutII22]

Pictures of the carb

 

[Scoutboy74]

We've got some issues here, buddy. You're carb has a manual choke, but you don't have a choke cable connected and therefore you have no way of gradually opening the choke up as the engine begins to warm. That big brass butterfly plate over the carb opening is your choke plate. It needs to be closed up like it is now when the engine is cold started, and then gradually opened to full vertical within a few minutes of running. What's happening right now is that the plate is staying closed. The cold engine wants to be choked, but as it warms it wants more air. With the plate closed, the air fuel ratio is way too Rich, which a warming engine doesn't like. I bet it spews dark smoke from the tail pipes and stinks to high heaven of Rich fuel right before it coughs, sputters and dies. I also bet that if you pull the plugs, they will all be covered in black soot and are now even more worthless than they were when new. So, add a universal choke cable to your grocery list and head on back down to the parts store. No sense in trying to run the thing any longer until we make some more adjustments.

 

[ScoutII22]

I know what your saying about the choke needing a manual choke, I know I need that, the problem with what your saying is, that is not the issue. My father is out there working the choke as im starting it. And once I get it running, it runs. We pulled a spark plug wire, and connected it to an extra spark plug, we got spark. We then hooked it back up, we started the engine, and then it died. We pulled the same spark plug wire, connected it to the same extra spark plug, and there was no spark. Therefore it is not a carb issue, it is a spark issue.