Power Problems

[ronmc1954]

ron,
I was wondering if I would have to use all those switches etc... Or can the isolator be used by its self? I understand the voltage will be split between the two batteries, which results in a slower charge, other than that is it possible and what are the drawbacks??
Thanks

Well people have done it without but from what I have learned the isolator protects your batteries and alt. From damage. And the bat switch has come in very handy when working on my Scout and it also keeps the batts seprate so they both don't go dead. Meaning never needing a jump start, if done right. If it were my Scout with a winch or plow dual batts would be the way I would go.

Ron

 

[Scoutboy74]

I'm frustrated.....
I shortened the cloth covered wire, it ended up being doubled over under the multitude of e-tape. I got it down to 3.3ohms thru the coil. The motor cranks real slow, but it did start.
I have to keep my foot on the gas to keep it running until it warmed up. I made some minor adjustments to the idle speed screw. I don't have a tac so I'm just going by ear. It still seams a bit high once warm. I ran it for a good 1/2 hour, I took a vacumme reading once warm and it is steady around 17.5hg.
I took the rig down the road about half mile,came back everything appeared good, it was actually running good for the first time in years. Here is where it goes bad. Shut the truck down because I wanted to try and adjust the timming a little to see if I could get it to crank quicker, and there was no change either way I turned the dizzy, then I seen some smoke comming from down near the starter. The wire was so hot it started to melt the tape around the end of the cable.
The power wire is hot at both ends.
What am I missing???


A little more info. More is better right... I took a voltage reading 12 at the battery.
Key off 12 at the coil where the resisted wire is, nothing on the other side.
Key on 12 at both sides of coil.

A lot to digest here. I'll try and work through this as best I can. Good job on the resistance adjustment. I forget now what carb you have. Sounds like your choke isn't functioning. Proper choke function is necessary for easier cold starting. This needs to be examined. If the idle speed is too high, it will throw off your vacuum reading and also your timing adjustments. Timing is best adjusted on a warm engine at curb idle.
Are you sure you're getting 12v at the coil with the key off? This shouldn't be. It should be dead zero on both posts with the key off. You need to find out why and how the coil is being energized with key off. Constant energy there is bad. In fact, were I you, I'd disconnect that battery this instant until you can determine what's causing that constant hot. There should only be 12 volts through the green wire during starter cranking. Once the engine is running, the green wire goes dead and the resistor wire takes over providing roughly 8 or 9 volts. Key off - engine off...both wires should be dead.

 

[wmnan]

Great just what I needed to hear. Lol. I will work on that this afternoon and get the rusults posted. Are there any other wires that need to be resisted inside the engine comp? I found 2 wires that have round connectors that are bolted together, it comes from the alt and goes into the the fuse panel. It starts out as a brown wire with white stripe and then it looks ltike the po spliced it with a red, then a green, the total lenght is like 8 or 9 feet. I looked in my toilet paper book and I can't find if it needs to be resisted anywhere.

 

[Scoutboy74]

There is one other resistor wire under the hood. It is a 24 gauge (tiny) brown with white stripe and runs from the #1 terminal of the alternator to the bhc. It should be one continuous wire run with a measured resistance between 10 to 50 ohms. Wires bolted together? That sounds sketchy. Are they under the hood or under the dash? Can you post a pic? Does the alternator gauge function on this rig?

 

[Scoutboy74]

I was a bit premature in agreeing with you a few days ago that your ignition/starter/alternator wiring was correct. Based on your smoking wires report, my recent review of the electrical schematic compared with a couple of your pics, and your description of wires bolted together...I have to re-nig on that assessment. My suspicion (and yours too) of these circuits should be back on the table. Obviously there is still some po virus rearing its ugly head. Every damn wire connected to that starter solenoid needs to be looked at and traced out to its termination. Same goes for the alternator.

 

[Scoutboy74]

Since I'll be outside and away from the pooter much of the day, here's your homework assignment. Focusing first on the starter solenoid gang of wires, we want the following in place:

a. One 4ga cable running from the battery + terminal directly to the large solenoid lug.
B. One 10ga wire (originally red with a fusible link) running from the large solenoid lug up to the bhc where it penetrates the firewall before terminating at the + lug of the alternator/ammeter gauge, known as circuit 14. Make note of any po splices or unions with other wires. It should be a solitary and continuous run other than the factory junction at the bhc.
C. One 16ga wire running from the large solenoid lug to the #2 alternator terminal, known as circuit 7. Make note of any splices/unions just as with #b above.
D. One 14ga wire running from the solenoid 's' lug up to the bhc, known as circuit 17 and originating from an 'I' terminal of the ignition switch. Again this should be free of splices/unions aside from the bhc. This wire completes the circuit to engage the solenoid plunger, which then allows the starter motor to turn.
E. One 16ga wire running from the solenoid 'r' lug to the coil + lug, known as circuit 16a. As before, check for splices/unions. Should be hot only during starter cranking. Must be dead 0 volts at all other key switch positions. All this wire does is momentarily bypass the resistor/ballast feed to the coil while the starter motor cranks. There should be no other wires connected to the solenoid aside from these five.

Now focusing on the alternator gang:

a. One 10ga wire secured to the 'b' or 'bat' lug with a nut, known as circuit 2. Should make a solitary and continuous run to the bhc, penetrate the firewall, and terminate at the - (negative) lug of the ammeter/alt gauge.
B. One 24ga resistor wire connected directly to alt terminal #1, known as circuit 1 (brown w/white stripe discussed two posts ago) and runs to the bhc where it penetrates the firewall and terminates at an 'I' terminal of the iggy switch. Has a measured resistance between 10 and 50 ohms. This as the 'exciter' wire, which prompts the internal voltage regulator inside the alternator to increase/decrease output based on current draw/load/drain etc.
C. Refer to #c of solenoid gang discussion above.

Finally focusing on the coil gang:

a. One 16/18ga black wire running from coil - (neg) to breaker points inside distributor.
B. Refer to #e of solenoid gang discussion above.
C. One 20ga resistor wire wrapped in cloth insulation, known as
circuit 16, originally 72 inches in length, with a measured resistance of 1.8 ohm. This wire should only display voltage when key switch is in on position. Should be stone cold dead when the key is in off or acc positions. To reiterate, the coil + lug has two wires connected. Both are called upon to supply voltage to the coil in differing situations, however neither should be energized when the key is switched to off or acc. Make it so, numba one!

This should keep you busy for awhile.

 

[wmnan]

Got it. I was tracking the same thing. Today a got some electric parts cleaner and dielectric grrease, cleaned up those bhc's, put the connectors back together and nothing. I removed all the grease recleaned them with epc put them back together without grease nothing. It has been a long wet cold day here in pa. I will trace every wire and post findings in a few days.

The alt gage does work showes a positive charge, if I hade to guess I would say around 15 amps. The alt was pushing 15 amps befor.

I do believe that brown wire with stripe has been modified, the bolt is on ec side and the wire runs thru the bh in it's own modified hole. If I don't get a pic tonight I will post it along with all the other updates.

The carb is a an aftermarket Holley. (autoline c-7098). I am going to say it is similar to a 2300 with an electric choke. The choke does apear to work correctly, but I think it opens a bit fast, 2 or 3 mins and it is wo.

 

[Scoutboy74]

I'd not heard of these autoline remans before, so I had to edjumuhkate mysef on 'em a bit. Appears to be the oem design Holley 2300 with a 'lektrik choke. They look real purdy in the pics. Did they do a nice job on it in your estimation? Choke plate should start out almost completely closed when cold and be fully opened inside of 5 minutes. There should also be a fast idle cam that keeps the revs up around 1600, but gradually steps it down in @ 300 rpm increments until the choke is fully open.
Since you saw smoke escaping from the solenoid region, I'm not surprised you have nothing at the bhc. Your most recent failure could be right there at the solenoid which is upstream from the bhc. I bet when you make a close inspection you will find one or more crispi-fried wires there. I feel your pain on the cold, nasty weather, although it has been quite pleasant here in sw orygun the past few days. The po virus often leads to countless hours of hair pulling and teeth grinding. We'll eventually find and rectumfy the problems. If I could have my boots on your soil with diagrams in hand this process would be a bit faster. Small snapshots with back and forth he said/he said is kinda slow and plodding, but its the best we can do.

 

[wmnan]

I will be busy at work for the next couple days, I have a big inspection and will be workin some late uns.
The carb seams to be doing ok, when I first put it on it ran gud for bout 2 weeks, I had someone look the rig and they made some adjustments, but it has never been "right", but I have come to the conclusion that there were proly other issues and the carb should have beenleft alone, say la vee. There is no fast idle cam an this carb. I do have 2 old 2100's that I might be able to rob some parts from, but I will get you some gud pics of what I got going on for we get the cart rollin.
Good night.

 

[Scoutboy74]

I find it hard to believe that there is no fast idle provision on your carb. That's like a reeses peanut butter cup without the chocolate. A carb choke system that doesn't increase engine speed during warmup is practically worthless. One should not have to feather the throttle or carefully position a brick paver on the accel pedal in order to keep the engine running. You'll have to prove it to me with some good carb pics...time permitting of course. I think it exists and simply needs adjustment in order to actuate properly. The motorcraft 2100 carbs you mentioned May appear somewhat similar at first blush, but there really won't be anything of consequence that can be transferred over to the Holley. Have fun at work.

 

[wmnan]

No motocrafts, the 2 carbs I have are holleys with manual chokes. I will try to get some pics tonight if its not to late when I get home. Oh.. And thanks for the homework. Lol

ok, here are some pics. Suprisingly no wires on starter are burned..... But the battery is toast, it wont even make the selodoid click. I put my spare in and it cranked up. With some help from my foot. I didn't play with it to much, I still need to trace all the wires and verify their connection are correct.

I will load the pics starting with the carb on the rig and then of my two manual carbs.

 

[wmnan]

I owe you one more pic, the one I really wntd didnt come out.

 

[wmnan]

Here is the last pic, the cam that is in there has no steps, I tried but cant get a good pic of the cam without pulling the choke off.

 

[Scoutboy74]

Oh goody. I have plenty of remarks to make about what I see. Shocking right?

Carb pic 1: you have an electric choke, so the hot air tube is now redundant. It May also have the effect of heating the thermal spring inside the black plastic cover up faster than necessary which might be pulling the choke plate open too soon. You can remove that hot air tube with no ill effect and place it above your mantel as a souvenir if you'd like.

Carb pic 2: is the power for the electric choke coming from a key switch on source other than the coil + terminal?

Carb pic 3: you can see the fast idle cam adjustment screw in the lower right corner of the pic. Does it engage the amber colored fast idle cam at all?

Carb pic 4/5: the vac lines seen in the lower right of the pic...they're connected to the vacuum tree under the throttle cable bracket right? They're hideous and can be discarded. They're not serving any purpose. The bottom of that tree penetrates a coolant passage and reacts to heat as the coolant warms. It was part of your original emission system, which is long gone now. So long as nothing is connected to it, all of the ports can be left vacant. It won't create a vacuum leak since it requires a manifold vacuum line connected to it in order to function in the first place.

All old carb pics: those are Holley 22xx models and are quite different from your 2300. None of the parts will transfer over. About the only value in them is to some Scout owner who's ride is still subject to under-hood visual inspection for smog certification.

Starter pic: wow! Look at the crispy battery cable! No wonder you've lost cab power. There's where you lost it. That damaged chunk will need to be hacked off and a new ring terminal crimped on...or might be better to replace the entire cable.

Supplemental carb pic: well, the provision for fast idle is there. It is either out of adjustment or the supplied fast idle cam is incorrect. They can be changed.

 

[wmnan]

Good evening...
Inspection went better than expected.
The wires all checked out. They are run where they need to be.
No unreasonable breaks other than that brown and white resistence wire which has those two round connectors, which by the way I think I found the resistor that belongs to it. Short story I got a bunch of extra parts with the rig when I bought it 8+ years ago. Ye I have neglected it as it was orginally only going to be a plow truck. My intent was to run it in the ground and then take it for scrap. I only paid $700 for it and that was with a plow. The resistor is only showing 2.4 ohms with the meter set on 200. Pic attached.

I had to take the choke off in order to see the steps. The screw only touched the highest step and missed the rest. I adjusted it to hit all but the last one, but it is so tight that it won't let the choke pull steps down. I will try to adjust it more tomorrow night. When it is a cold engine again.

I removed the hot air tube. And got rid if the bhc's all together. They are all spliced with wire connectors. I know this sis not the preferred method, and I have no intention of keeping it that way, I just needed to eliminate the groddy bhc and get to clean wires.

 

[Scoutboy74]

Glad the inspection went well. That is a porcelain ballast resistor and with the 2.4 ohm resistance, I don't think you will have much use for it, but you can keep it stashed away if you'd like. It is not meant to be used in conjunction with the small gauge resistor wire which runs between the alternator #1 terminal and the bhc that has been modified.

Part of the auto choke adjustment involves the black thermal cover. By loosening the set screws, that cover or dial can actually be rotated in accordance with some index marks for a more Rich or lean setting. It takes some trial and error to get it set properly. And of course, what works well in the dead of winter May be overkill in the warmer months, which means more adjusting for those conditions.

I'm still perplexed as to why your battery cable got hot enough to sizzle like that. My speculations are: a. There is significant build up of lead acid corrosion hidden inside the cable. Corrosion creates electrical resistance. Electrical resistance creates heat...ergo crispy cable. Solution...replace the cable. Or b. The alternator is putting out too much current and that union at the starter solenoid is where things came to a head electrically speaking. With your intermittent power disruptions, option a seems to be the most logical scenario.

Are you waiting to take voltage readings at the coil + with the key off until you can get the battery cable replaced? That would be a good idea, but I still want to hear those results from you.

 

[wmnan]

Thanks, we always expect the worst with our inspections.
Ok, so here are the nembers, and I don't think you are going to like them.
First. The coil is getting nothing with the key off. Goody!
Engine running: 14 on the resisted wire and 13 to the dizzy.
Alt: engine running as follows. Red 14.8, black 15.6, blue 15.4.
Key off blue and red 12.35.

Selonoid, engine running: white 0, pos + from bat 14.8, green 13.7.

I cut about 2 inches off the end of the pos cable to the start and replaced the end, auto store didn't have a cable in stock long enough. Suprisingly the copper wire inside was fairly clean, just a touch of tarnish, but no corrosio

I adjusted the choke and idle cam screw, it still seams real tight and doesn't let the choke pull it down. I did just a little adjusting of the carb mixing screws because it was idleing rough. It is smoother now, but I am sure far from where it needs to be. One step at a time.

I know it seams like I am jummping around, but I really am just trying to work on one issue at a time. It just seams like an adjustment in one location effects 3 others.

 

[Scoutboy74]

Zero at coil + with key off is what we want.
I don't like the coil + gaining voltage while the engine is running. It should display less than 12 volts through the resistor wire.
Your alternator should output a maximum of 14 volts at engine speeds above 2k rpms. A couple decimal points above that...probably not a big deal. Upper 14's and above with engine speed below 2k rpms shouldn't be happening. I know you said you had this alt tested, but a good alternator would not produce readings that high. You have another alternator, right? Its a pain, but I think you need to swap alts and retest.

 

[wmnan]

Swapped the alt. Had to swap the pully as well, I couldn't get enough tension on it.
Here are teh numbers, warm engine, at idle of approx 700.
I hope to get a tac for Christmas..
Alt red 14.8, black 11.8, blue 14.8.
Coil: 12.2, 9.3 to dizzy..
I will get the alt model numb for you later. I have to run out.

 

[Scoutboy74]

Well I think that's better. The 14.8 is still a bit higher than I'd like to see, but might be good enough that your battery cable won't turn into chicken fried steak. Might be time now to run it for a while with a sharp eye and nose trained on the solenoid area for any signs of excess heat/smoke.