Holley 23XX Series Modular Carb Stuff

[Erik VanRenselaar]

The speed shops in my area sell bulk Holley main jets. They keep them in large divided plastic boxes. Call around in your area...

 

[nick boone]

Thanks for the help identifying the vacuum bleed port on the metering body. I'll make sure it doesn't leak. The green accelerator pump cam is mounted on the same carb (part 442163-c91, list-6391-1).

First question, is this the correct carb for a 345 on a 1310? One website I found lists that part number only for a 1972 304.

Second question, I'm repolishing the pump cam arm because it was worn, should I go back with the green cam or start with white? 52 jets and 65 power valve currently installed. I can't find any posts where people use the green cam and I'm wondering why it's there.

1973 1310 (1-ton) 4x4 pickup. 345 engine, t-19 trans, NP205 transfer case, d70 front and rear with 4.88.

Nick

 

[Michael Mayben]

thanks for the help identifying the vacuum bleed port on the metering body. I'll make sure it doesn't leak. The green accelerator pump cam is mounted on the same carb (part 442163-c91, list-6391-1).

First question, is this the correct carb for a 345 on a 1310? One website I found lists that part number only for a 1972 304.

Second question, I'm repolishing the pump cam arm because it was worn, should I go back with the green cam or start with white? 52 jets and 65 power valve currently installed. I can't find any posts where people use the green cam and I'm wondering why it's there.

1973 1310 (1-ton) 4x4 pickup. 345 engine, t-19 trans, NP205 transfer case, d70 front and rear with 4.88.

Nick

Your list 6391-1 (actually -1a) is the correct app for some m/y '72 304 engines in "most" platforms. Don't get hung up on that, as the calibration differences between that list and other similar items is minute/inconsequential as far as engine tune/performance is concerned.

The oem main jet for that list is a #51 and uses a white accel pump cam, part number/id "218" cast into the cam body.

A green cam is a p/n 290 and is about 20% "fatter" (richer) in pickup point, lift, and duration than a white cam. That is the cam I normally use next in tuning these carbs if a more pronounced (fatter overall) pump shot (compared to a white cam) is needed during a dial-in process.

Typical main jet size used on all variations of the oem 2300 run between #50 and #53 no matter if used on a 304 or 345. The venturi diameters and the throttle body diameters are identical amongst all those list numbers.

So if idle quality and tip-in performance on your carb is satisfactory, I see no reason to change anything!

A manual transmission app used a manual choke carb, an auto-trans used a hot air (automatic) choke system.

The reference pages in the cts 2300 service manual have definitive carb calibration info for all Holley list numbers used in that era for all engines. But they do not define the accel pump cam color, that comes form the actual bill of materials (bom) for each individual list and is only available in the Holley references. Some of that info can be found on some websites, for some list numbers(that stuff was ripped off from various Holley carb references). And much info is also found on the Holley website...but it's far from being complete and definitive...for that you gotta use a Holley master reference, and even those are certainly not a complete compilation and lack much of the list information from the early 50's and some of the latest list numbers intro'd as "re-pops" in the last couple of years. The Holley performance products company we know today is not the same as the Holley corp. (oem supplier) that was acquired by borg warner in the late 80's.

For detailed Holley carb id info, I normally use at least four separate references and then patch the info together gathered from all, that can be somewhat time-consuming and confusing regarding many list numbers.

 

[nick boone]

Great info. Last question and I think I'll have this carb re-rebuilt and back on the truck. After reviewing your post...

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...tml?highlight=pump+discharge+weight#post16864

I realized that I only have one steel ball bearing in the pump discharge check valve location. How do I remedy this? Based on the screw length, I'm assuming I should have a second steel ball for the retaining weight. The only Holley kit I can find with these check balls is 36-118 which contains much more than I need.

Any suggestions on where I can find a spare ball? Just us a bb from my red rider? How much should it weigh? Is it identical to the seat ball?

Nick

 

[Michael Mayben]

Using a strong penlight, look down into the pump check valve "seat" area and determine it's shape. It will either be profiled for a "ball" or profiled for the needle tip. It's entirely possible that whatever you found in that location when ya tore into it was wrong (very common)!!

If the seat appears to be a hemisphere, then it receives a ball with an additional ball of the same weight/diameter on top to serve as the "hanging weight". That prevents the check ball from lifting off the seat in extreme operation.

One of the other two common configurations are a "short" needle (with a matching seat) that as what looks like either a roller bearing segment on top (hanging weight), or possibly an additional ball...either works just fine.

The third config is the "long" needle used by itself and is by far the most common.

The main thing to avoid is using a long needle along with some sort of hanging weight, that jams the needle into it's seat when the screw is tightened and of course it can't operate. I have a few of those in my scarp parts pile now.

So...if ya need to add a hanging weight, just about anything will work just fine..a steel bb, a lead shot or proper diameter lead split-shot, a short cut-off piece of a machine screw thread, etc. Once the shooter screw is tightened (and a seal ring is on top and underneath the shooter), if ya juggle the carb ya should be able to hear the check valve rattling inside which indicates it's free to move.

If you actually find that a needle should be installed, then ya can remove the needle from the old needle/seat combo and cut (grind) to length, iirc, the actual od of that needle is real close to perfect if not exactly the same!

 

[nick boone]

The attached pic shows the check valve seat area. Kind of hard to tell, but I think it's profiled for a needle tip.

Nick

 

[Michael Mayben]

I've certainly not seen every configuration of the 2300/4150/4160 accel pump check system, but ive yet to come across a "ball style" on the common IH-app 2300 list number carbs. I only know that they do exist in some list carbs, most likely very early stuff from the mid-50's used on Ford apps.

But...I have seen all kinds of balls and other widgets down in that hole on carbs sent in for reconditioning! That is because in the past someone has attempted a rebuild and when turning the carb body over, the check fell out and was never seen again.

Then...because they see a "ball" in the typical rebuild kits, they think that is where it goes. Any rebuild kit contains many parts that are not used in specific models, these items are very universal in nature, some more-so than others. And the instruction sheets included in the kits are simply "typical" and not an exact bom/drawing for that single list number.

The "long" needle is by far the most common I see on these oem 2300 list carbs I rebuild nearly every day for IH apps.

 

[ojh]

Michael I got that carb you sent me on the motor, no problems. I was spinng the motor over to get fuel into the bowl when the goddamn thing just started right up...they supposed to do that? Every other carb that people built for me I had to tap on the float bowl and need a screw stuck in somewhere before they'd run. It is sitting outside right now idling perfect, I had it in the garage spinning the motor, it started and I opened the door and drove it out and that is where is sits now, no shit. Thank you sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar, now about payment I am runningshort this week and...just kidding, thanks oj

 

[Michael Mayben]

No shit?? It actually started??? Even with no float in the bowl (it's still laying on the bench here along with the correct metering block gasket!!). Whatcha smokin' bro???

If yore short this week, welcome to the club (and welfare line).

Tell ya what...if ya kin kick up a judson blower kit (or even a 4-71 jimmy), we kin do an even-up swap!??

Otherwise...my "boys" there in virginny (chawlie and curt) will come collect after the first of the year!

 

[ojh]

Don't know nuthin about a 4-71 or judson, but I got a line on an old 8-71 bower. Ya think it'll get the job done?

 

[Benjamin7]

Hey michael, it's your oreegun buddy from k-falls reportin' in. I rebuild the 2300 that came on the motor I bought. The engine is still at the shop waiting for the hot tank, but like I said in my engine noise post I went ahead and rebuilt this 2300 with the kit that you supplied the p.n. For. Anyhoot, long story short is I put it all back together and for shits and giggles threw it on the 345 that is in the Scout right now. After about 10 cranks it fired right up. I was pleased because it sounded goood and was way more responsive than the smogerator that I removed. Well that was short lived. I was having a helluva time getting it to idle and not die below about 700 rpm. Everything seemed to be working fine but for the life of me I couldn't make the thing run right. So I got on here and read every post and think I might know the problem.
It looks like I'm missing the check needle that belongs in the pump shot thingymabob. There was nothing in there before and so I didn't realize it was missing until I read through all of these posts. How do I know what I should put on? Is there something on my 2110 that I can install in its place? The seat looks identical to the picture a few posts up. (good camera work I must say). What do I do?

The picture was post 86.

 

[Michael Mayben]

hey michael, it's your oreegun buddy from k-falls reportin' in. I rebuild the 2300 that came on the motor I bought. The engine is still at the shop waiting for the hot tank, but like I said in my engine noise post I went ahead and rebuilt this 2300 with the kit that you supplied the p.n. For. Anyhoot, long story short is I put it all back together and for shits and giggles threw it on the 345 that is in the Scout right now. After about 10 cranks it fired right up. I was pleased because it sounded goood and was way more responsive than the smogerator that I removed. Well that was short lived. I was having a helluva time getting it to idle and not die below about 700 rpm. Everything seemed to be working fine but for the life of me I couldn't make the thing run right. So I got on here and read every post and think I might know the problem.
It looks like I'm missing the check needle that belongs in the pump shot thingymabob. There was nothing in there before and so I didn't realize it was missing until I read through all of these posts. How do I know what I should put on? Is there something on my 2110 that I can install in its place? The seat looks identical to the picture a few posts up. (good camera work I must say). What do I do?

The picture was post 86.

Without a check in the accel pump well, liquid fuel is being pulled right up through the accel pump shooter nozzles and you should be able to see it drooling while the motor is running. Looks like sinus drainage right out of the tiny nozzles in continuous drips. Thus your idle quality is shit and can't be compensated for through adjustment of the mixture screws.

In a previous post I mentioned I'd never seen a "check ball" in the accel pump well only in a Holley modular carb of any list number. Well now I have!

I just completed Sunday a 2300 for a long-time ihon customer that Jeff sent up. An absolute virgin 2300 with the same list as yours, what's the chances of that happening?? From the looks of that carb when I ripped into it, it has never been touched before! And, it does use a ball as an accel pump check! The ball measures 0.157" in diameter and is actually a replacement ball supplied in the wells kits I use on 1904 holleys for another position! I have many of those balls as I toss nothing out!

So...using a bright light and a magnifying glass, see if you can determine if the bottom of that hole which is the seat, has a "long" taper" to it's form or a simple "indentation" which would accept a ball.

I actually believe that the "taper" seat will accept a ball and seal just fine...but I would use two balls, the second adds some weight to the check valve, what is referred to as a "hanging weight".

So..see what you think...and then send me your mail to addy to:

michael@IHPartsAmerica.com

And I'll drop a "short needle" in the mail to ya, along witha few balls. If ya end up using the needle, then you will place one of the balls on top of the needle before installing the shooter. I don't have any spare "long" needles.

The needles are salvaged out of carbs that are parts donors, I have very few of those, but I May have a source for new stuff like that now, I won't know for sure until the wholesaler's catalog arrives by ups tomorrow.

Yes, your 2210 does have a very similar needle as it's "check" for the accel pump circuit, but it's diameter is somewhat larger and will not fit the hole on the 2300.

 

[Benjamin7]

Wow! That's crazy. I would say that my carb has never been rebuilt either... Based on the fact that I had to actually drive the parts appart with a hammer and chisle (very carfully) appart. The gaskets were bonded to the metal and actually came appart from the middle. Since it's my first rebuild I thought maybe it was normal but after reading all of this info I'm thinking it was possible the original gaskets. Anyhoot, it appears that the hole would accept a ball and not a needle. If I saw that picture in the post I mentioned before and didn't know where it came from I would say it was my carb. It is identical. So I guess send me a needle and 2 of the balls and I'll try them all. In the mean time this truck will sit un-carburated.... Do you think I could throw a couple bb's in there 'till you get those here?

 

[Michael Mayben]

Bb's?? Maybe. But they ain't hardly round like a precision ground ball bearing!

As for the "stuck" gaskets, that is perfectly normal. The oem gaskets were a brown fiber paper treated with a coating that reacted to "pressure" when the screws were tightened. That kept 'em leak free.

Later, a different type paper was used in the factory assemblies, a black material that also was coated. Those gaskets did not shrink over an extended period of time like the brown paper gaskets did, but they are still a bitch to remove. Most all "aftermarket" kits (not Holley label) still use the black gaskets, the napa kits use some black gaskets that are particularly crappy in quality.

About 15 years ago, Holley changed bowl and metering block gasket material to a blue, neoprene-coated fiber material. Those are the best yet, but over time the blue coating will stick somewhat but not a bad as the brown or black. And so far, I've noticed that e10 does not create any "blue" gasket deterioration though it is harmful to other components.

The "mr. Gasket" replacements gaskets for these carburetors are shit, don't ever use those! Twenty years ago, mr. Gasket stuff was ok, but I don't touch their shit now.

This crap that is sold as "carb dip" under the berryman's label nowadays still smells like hell, but does not clean worth a dam since it's so watered down due to environmental restrictions. And the smell never goes away.

I use tyme cold parts cleaner which is an outstanding product marketed by crc. I clean/soak all carburetor components, it won't damage any plastic/rubber/nylon pieces. It is neutralized/rinsed with hot water. Any remaining residue or gasket material is then removed with walmart's house brand carb cleaner, the finest and cheepest I've ever used! I buy it weekly by the case at the local wallyworld, nothing else on the market compares for the money.

I also use tyme for soaking pistons/rods, engine fasteners, oil pump components, anything that can fit in the soak bucket.

For "white rust" corrosion caused by moisture exposure and e10 (alcohol), I have another process that I won't discuss here since it's not hobbyist-friendly and could make a big mess if it's not carefully monitored! That is used for deep cleaning Holley metering blocks (and other parts) after the small core plugs are removed. Ultra-sonic cleaning won't touch that shit.

 

[Benjamin7]

You had to say "napa" didn't you? I think I May coin the term "crapa". Ya, I used the napa kit. Owell right? The gaskets that were on it were the black fiber gaskets and damn they stuck hard. Like I said, I had to drive them appart. I did use barrymans (as per trevers advice, trever you're on my shit list), and ya, it didn't work that great but the carb wasn't too dirty besides a lot of rust deposits. Do you think I can get some decent ball berrings from the parts munkees? If I go and ask for something specific they get all dumb and are like "what vehicle??? What vehichle damnit?!?!? I can't look it up if I don't know what vehicle!!!!" anyways it's irritating. What should I ask for? .175 inch ball bearings??

 

[Scoutboy74]

Hail...who do ya think first tolt me ta git that stinkin' shit about 2 yars ago? Hiz inishuls don't stand fer mars n milkyway, bud! I fergot that he had a change of heart 'bout the berrymans. This oldtimers iz the shits. I've still got a gallon jug of stinkjuice that's only had one dip in it. Ya think I'm gunna toss that shit afore I rebuild my next 2300? Fook no! Mayben knows I'm way too dam cheep tuh do anythang like that! So wut if it smails lyk my last wooman friend? it's all gud.
I coined the term crappa years ago. I thought I dun tolt ya ta git the Holley kit? Whydya go off the reservashun on that deal? It ain't lyk me tuh ever give ya bad advice!

 

[Benjamin7]

Galdurn I thot I dun got the gud stuf on da napashiz... They tol me idwus da gud stuf... A feal a bit tuk up bi it awl... Il stil keep da berryman crud... It May turn up ta be sum gud sooner er later. Nex tyme I gunna ask for mars and milky way befer I ask no Scout boy. He hehe

 

[Michael Mayben]

The accel pump check sets are taped to a card and will be mailed to ya today.

The berryman's shit will do inna pinch but don't ever take it in the house and always flush the shit outside, preferably using some treehuggers water faucet and front porch.

Crc has not always marketed tyme inna one gallon can. And that can is not a dip/soak can, it's a simple gallon jug. So it's fine if ya have a container to put it in large enuff to soak all the parts (a plastic five gallon paint pail with lid is perfect). Most hobby-types ain't gonna invest $125+ inna five gallon soak can of tyme in order to do one or two carbs every other year!

And the berryman's carb dip is not the same thing as berryman's chemtool which is primarily acetone/mek/etc. But chemtool is not even close to as effective as the wallyworld carb cleaner and is nearly three times the cost per can! But ventilate when using the shit...it even fooks up my oldazz toxic haid! And it don't mask the pain of kidney stones near as guud as morphine.

 

[Scoutboy74]

Hey mayben, when ya send out that parcel, put a lipstik smoochy and a squirt uh momma's purdy toilet water on it. Ben's better half git's a real kik outta them kinda u.s. Mail gags!

 

[Michael Mayben]

Ok, that way she'll think ben's blowin' smoke with lady caca insteada sum old fooker in the valley!