T407/TF 727 Band Adjustment

[scoutpappa]

Gotta ask this one. I've been working 6-7 days a week and wanted to do my band adjustment and filter/gasket/atf change. Got everything I needed from Jeff and then got too busy. Started calling around quzzing all the tranny shops with all my new found knowledge and the one guy that I found to be knowledgable with an "a" bbb rating said he would do the forward band adjustment for free but would not be willing to do a filter/gasket/atf change. Basically, because I have no clue about the previous 31 years of maintenance and the transmission shifts fine, he says that the new oil with all the detergents will probably break up some of the varnish in the system and cause a rebuild. That and the reverse park band shouldn't need any adjustment. After reading through this thread a few times and just all the old advice (if you haven't changed your atf in a 100k, don't) type of comments I'm starting to second guess myself. It seems like this situation was alluded to in this thread. Any thoughts. Transmission shifts fine. Slips in second gear for two seconds when it's below freezing. Put it in neutral while warming up and has stopped. Atf is red and doesn't smell like the pits of hell, but I do have two gallons of swepco in my garage now. So do I do the whole r&r or just do the forward bands and have a lifteime supply of fill up atf?

 

[Michael Mayben]

I disagree with your tranny guy completely regarding the tf 727 and tranny/band service.

These units were designed to be serviced every 30k miles or so. Most never got touched at all. I've done "first service" on these same units at 150k+ miles and never run into any sort of issue after the fact.

If one of these transmissions is allowed to grossly overheat and "foul" the oil, they die! They don't continue to simply plug along. Just because the oil is "dark" does not mean there is anything truly wrong, it just means that at least once it overheated. But if it's still working now, then it will work once the service operation is performed if the service is performed correctly.

For a complete novice (but with needed tools), this May take most of a day to perform since you are going to also find other work to do once ya spend time bottomside! For a shop with a lift and oil drain assembly, this is a maximum 2 hour job.

Don't sweat it man! You have already worked through two major issues of po-scruud service jobs that had much to be delt with. A tranny service is nothing after what you have already done!

But please, do not put this operation off! If you do, the next thing we'll hear from ya is "where did reverse go this morning??".

 

[scoutpappa]

Always the voice of reason. It's shaping up for a full weekend so about the only things I lack are the eight point sockets and some permatex #97. I'll get it done.

 

[scoutpappa]

I'm committed now. This is what I am looking at with the pan dropped. I have to run to get a set of eight point sockets but it appears that at least the fluid, gasket and filter have been changed recently. Really this is a question because after reading this thread and the guapo thread about eighty times, I expected more sediment and the fluid to be more milky in the bottom. To my inexperienced eye this thing looks spotless for a thirty two year old transmission. There was no sediment at the bottom and very little of the minute size of metal flakes also. The true test will be where the bands are set, and even if this was done the week before I bought the truck, at least now I know where I am at in the maintenance cycle. So 30k from here I do it again. Mike, what are your thoughts?

 

[hawaii5hoe]

but please, do not put this operation off! If you do, the next thing we'll hear from ya is "where did reverse go this morning??".

Found this thread too late but I did put off having my tranny serviced and after a while of hearing a clunk when putting it in reverse.... I don't have reverse any more! I lost it at the mall and after giving up on waiting for the car parked in the stall in front of my Scout to leave so I could jump the curb and drive home, I put the Scout in neutral, put my back against the grill and began to crab walk backwards/push the Scout out of the stall, I would walk/push a little then pop up to look if any traffic was coming and walk/push a little more, take another peek....then I saw a guy and his girlfriend come out of barnes' and noble books. The guy looked at me like I was nuts and asked , "what are you doing?" I told him, "reversing." the guy got into his car with his girlfriend and drove away-I guess my wise ass answer didn't earn any help........

Moral of the story:
service or have your tranny serviced a regular intervals and wise ass answers will not earn help from strangers.....

I will be revisiting this thread when we get our tax return so I can finally service my poor scouts tranny, for now I'm stuck tactically parking so I don't have to reverse or doing my kooky crab walk reverse....

thanks to all who contributed to this informative thread.

Aloha,
jonesy

 

[scoutpappa]

It appears that the bands have been adjusted albeit incorrectly. The park/reverse band was barley one and a half in and the pita forward band was about one in or a little over, so took everything to 72"/lb and backed out two and a quarter. Sealed the pan, filled her up and took her around the block. Had the wife do it too. So (knock on wood) it feels like it is shifting smoother and pulling steadier, nothing dramatic with this one but from the above posted I think this May have been done in the not too far past. Now I hope have her set right but it hasn't broke down.

 

[Michael Mayben]

So this wasn't so bad was it??

And the transmission has been serviced in the past, that appears to be a solid rubber pan gasket.

So what you have done is one more of the "certification" issues regarding this rig. We never know what we actually have until we take the risk to find out!

Next??

 

[scoutpappa]

Brakes, t-handle on back lift glass, horn, blinker cam, front end, gas tank, sending unit and float, electric fuel pump, double fuel filter setup, spring bushings, man does it ever end

 

[IHScott]

Hey fellas! I have questions. Just want to make sure I understand this correctly as I would like to service my bands this weekend as I need a filter change anyways and have the supplies ready. Both adjusting bolts get hand tightened in until they stop, then torqued past that to 72 inch/pounds then backed back out 2 and a half turns and voila, im good to go? I get a clunk when I put it in reverse, will this solve that issue by chance. If not what do I need to look for. It has all new u-joints, as I thought that was the issue originally. Also, is there a write up on the correct way to adjust the kickdown, that a dumb blonde guy would understand. My Scout shifts out very early and rarely kicks down unless im going really slow. Very annoying I gotta say. As always, the write-ups here are amazing, and thanks for any help.

K, going through the guapo thread now. Please disregard the adjustment question. Mm, you are the man!

 

[Michael Mayben]

Keep in mind that the "back off turns" for the band adjustment screws are for a transmission that is a total stocker. If any other transmission service has been done in the past that involved aftermarket bands or modifications to the valve body, the
back-off" specs could be a bit different.

Is the difference in 1/4 of a turn gonna be an issue??? Not at all. But there is a very fine line between right and either too loose or too tight.

The "clunk" sound you currently hear with reverse engagement could very well be related to a low/reverse band that is significantly "loose". That is due to the fact that band has to move much further when activated. Let that go too long and the band will break and/or the operational strut will fall out of position. By paying very close attention to the band adjustment before actually making the change, that gives ya an idea of what could have happened.

 

[IHScott]

I also have a weird shimmy kinda feel when I get on the gas a lil hard sometimes, was thinking maybe the filter was clogged and havin a hard time getting fluid pressure or something. Dont know if that even makes sense. Thats why I am actually getting into it this weekend. Not being anything close to a tranny guy, that was my first guess, but after all the reading im thinking that May be from needing band adjustments also. . Sure wish I had all your great IH knowledge, but being a member of this forum is the second best thing. Thanks so much Mike!

 

[Michael Mayben]

That "shimmy" feeling is something related to the entire 727 installation system used in both Scout II and fullsize rigs.

The fullsize stuff seems to have it in a much more pronounced fashion than a Scout II however. I have some definite ideas "why" it is there but no way to actually prove that without making some serious modifications to the entire transmission/transfer case mounting systems.

The fullsize stuff has the divorced transfer case with an entirely different engine and transmission mounting system compared to a Scout II.

On the other hand...is this "shudder" an issue? I don't think so at all, it is just part of the vehicle and we live with it!

This is not to say that a transfer case, driveshaft, engine mount, frame, crossmember can't certainly impact this whole deal. But once everything is in good order and the shimmy is still noticed at points, then we just ignore it.

 

[harley7985]

Hi all!

I have a -74 charger with a 360 engine and my problem is that my tranny will not go manually into 1st gear (via shift selector). It works excellent in "d" and shifts through all 3 gears and can manually be placed into all other gears, but not 1st gear. I have checked the linkage, and that is not the problem. The selector lever on the tranny itself will not move into 1st position. May this be an band adjustment issue or is it something damaged inside my tranny?
I really hope that you can give me an advice!

Best regards
halvar, norway

 

[Michael Mayben]

hi all!

I have a -74 charger with a 360 engine and my problem is that my tranny will not go manually into 1st gear (via shift selector). It works excellent in "d" and shifts through all 3 gears and can manually be placed into all other gears, but not 1st gear. I have checked the linkage, and that is not the problem. The selector lever on the tranny itself will not move into 1st position. May this be an band adjustment issue or is it something damaged inside my tranny?
I really hope that you can give me an advice!

Best regards
halvar, norway

Checking the shift linkage would be the first diagnostic effort, you have done that and the shifter system isn't the problem.

The next step would be to drain the oil and drop the pan. After doing that, when you look "up" at the shift column on the valve body, you will see a plastic crescent-shaped item (either black or green in color). That is the control device for the neutral safety switch which is screwed into the side of the transmission case. It is riveted to the metallic portion of that shift selector.

My suggestion is that the plastic segment has broken (most likely through it's rivet holes) and still partially mounted to the arm but has fallen out of position and is preventing the shift selector from going into the manual first shift position.

Some transmission supply warehouses in the u.s. Do carry an aftermarket replacement for that part. The shift lever assembly will have to be removed from the valve body in order to replace it however.

This picture shows the part (black in color) mounted to a valve body sitting on the bench, looking down from the top.

 

[Mark Pietz]

I had a '73 t'all with the 392 and 727 and divorced t/c. After having that one rebuilt by a very reputable shop (did my other stuff too), and having the low gearset installed, it had that shudder coming off the line. He worked with it a while and observed that it was because the t/c's mounting setup lets the t/c hang relatively free like a pendulum. He recommended that a simple brace from the t/c to the frame would fix it, as that was also a complaint with dodges, and the solution.

 

[harley7985]

Thanks a lot michael! That sounds like a very possible reason for the problem! I guess I just have to drop the pan and take out the valve house and take a look. Are there any springs, balls, oil lines or something that is attached to the valve house or is it as easy as just removing the bolts and take the house out? Is there any gasket between the valve house and the tranny house or is it only the gasket at the pan?

Halvar

 

[Michael Mayben]

thanks a lot michael! That sounds like a very possible reason for the problem! I guess I just have to drop the pan and take out the valve house and take a look. Are there any springs, balls, oil lines or something that is attached to the valve house or is it as easy as just removing the bolts and take the house out? Is there any gasket between the valve house and the tranny house or is it only the gasket at the pan?

Halvar

Doing the rest of the diagnostics, you should only remove the pan and then the filter. Also remove the control lever from the shift lever on the exterior so you can work it by hand. Then look/feel the shift quadrant and determine what has happened.

One other issue involves the same shift system...if the plastic follower is not damaged, then it's very possible that the quadrant has come loose on it's housing (it's a press-fit when manufactured). That is another common occurrence. If it is loose, then it May be removed and the parts reassembled back into proper position and then a very small weld placed on the top to mate the parts together. In fact, the picture I posted does show a quadrant that has been repaired in the past.

To remove the valve body, both shift levers must be removed. The transmission should also be placed in neutral. That allows the parking rod to pull straight out of it's detent inside the tailhousing. No gasket is involved, the valve body simply bolts directly to the main assembly.

Once the valve body is dropped down, there is a large spring that is between the valve body and the accumulator piston. It simply sits in that space and is not a problem to reinstall later. If the transmission has had a transgo or B&M shift kit installed, then that spring will not be there as it was discarded when either kit was installed.

 

[sokoji]

This May be a stupid question, but just have to ask to make sure. So I'm doing the band adjustment after installing the transgo shift kit, and it says depending on how many wraps in the bands to back it off different amounts for the rear band. It says for single wrap to do 2.5 turns and for double wrap 3.5. It goes to say that a double wrap has three sections across it. Now I can see three different sections in the front band, but the rear band is all one section, so would it be a single wrap?

 

[drake]

Mr. Mayben
I have been reading through the trans tech forum for 3 days now, and I have ordered my carl munroe "bible". The trans is out, on the stand, and ready for an overhaul. I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to explain the workings of the tf 727. This will be my first tranny build and I probably wouldn't be able to complete the task without ihon forum.

 

[mdupser]

Hey guys I am new to this forum and am pretty handy with basic stuff like changing radiators, water pumps, steering pumps. But never touched the inside of an engine or transmission. Whle changing fluid and filter on my brothers 86 dodge ram w150 with the 727 I decided to do the band adjustment per the manual. Well I completed zoned out even though it seemed crazy to torque to 72 ft lbs . When I finally realized this could not be right I backed everything off and redid it with ft inchs but the adjustment bolt seemed to be very loose after I backed it off. Have I just trashed the reverse low on this tranny? Could I have done something to band assembly that I could fix wo replacing band? I am desperate here...I am scared sh?tless to button this up, start up the truck and completely trash the tranny. Any help would be greatly appreciated you guys really know your stuff!
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michael mayben

"and to address ron's question...complete loss of reverse gear (as in..."worked when parked, now it won't go") is normally because the band has not been adjusted during it's life and the extreme amount of slop caused the "anchor" on the band (it's a rigid band) to break off when applied onna "cold" tranny and the pieces of the apply linkage and the band are floating around up inside the case! That means major overhaul time to repair.[/quote]