So I got some prices on rebuilding the tranny and t-case 727/20 is this something I can do or am I better off paying someone. What I want done is full seal replacement and r/r anything that needs it. Seems ok goes into gear nice and evrything it's just leaking atf all over looks like from the front
Torqueflite 727 Guapo
- Thread starter Michael Mayben
- Start date
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Marco...if ya simply wanna "reseal" the entire package, then yes, it's a fairly simple operation and straightforward. But it's not a "Saturday morning" kinda deal if ya wanna do it right. Depending upon how you approach work like this, I'd allow at least 20 hours of "straight time" to do this right in the learning mode! So that would be time spread over several sessions for most hobbyists. A "pro" would prolly bang it out (bench work only, no r&r), inna 'bout 5 hours flat rate at $90>$110 an hour plus parts in your local market?
And this would be a great how-to thread for the forum. I have most of the shots needed for this already, and a d20 in progress on the bench now. I also have a 4x2 tf 727 build for a tow rig in progress now which is identical except for the tail section so it's easy at this point to document info with pics.
All parts for this are readily available, but the two identical seals used behind the transfer case input gear on the 727 will have to be sourced separately, no big deal.
Once the entire package is out on the ground, my advice would be to first seal the front tranny input area and the two connections for the cooler fittings, and then powerwash the entire unit, getting it as clean as ya possibly can. Only then proceed with removing the transfer case from the tranny. The key to a successful "re-seal" is cleanliness and attention to detail.
And regarding the tranny itself, that would be the time to adjust the two bands since the pan will be off for a filter and pan gasket replacement, along with the two seals involved with the shift tower.
The front tranny leak is "normally" the seal which engages the nose of the torque converter. Behind that seal is a bushing, standard practice is to always replace the bushing along with the seal. For a novice, that is easier to do if the front pump is removed from the tranny but that is not imperative. There is a large "square cut" "o" ring that seals the peripheral of the front pump, but I've never seen a leak at that point unless the case itself was damaged during a previous overhaul attempt. And each of the bolts which retain the front pump have a special sealing washer which is an important item.
Removing the front pump will involve the use of a "technique" that is important to follow, and also requires at least one (preferably two) small slide hammer(s)or a shop-fabbed equivalent. For pump replacement, you will need to fab two line-up studs using 5/16"x18tpi bolts about three inches long.
The "seal" or "soft parts" kits available for the tf727 will have everything needed for the tranny but will also have several parts that are not used on the Scout II/IH variation. And...the output shaft seal in those kits will not work onna sii 4x4. That is why we have to source those two seals separately.
Ihon also has reseal kits for the d20 transfer case.
Another thing to pay attention to at that time would be the tranny mount itself, along with the shift cable and it's retaining clip.
The absolute best reference for the 727 tranny is..."torqueflite a-727 transmission handbook" by carl munroe. Isbn#1-55788-413-7. It even has several mentions of the ihc torqueflite variation! It has nothing included regarding a "married" 4x4 transfer case application, so the only real difference is the use of the tc adapter which uses the "special" output bearing and the two seals previously mentioned.
To replace those seals, the adapter does not have to be removed from the tranny, but is does need to come off if ya wanna replace the gasket between the tranny case itself and the adapter. There are no other soft parts in that tailhousing/adapter that need attention.
And this would be a great how-to thread for the forum. I have most of the shots needed for this already, and a d20 in progress on the bench now. I also have a 4x2 tf 727 build for a tow rig in progress now which is identical except for the tail section so it's easy at this point to document info with pics.
All parts for this are readily available, but the two identical seals used behind the transfer case input gear on the 727 will have to be sourced separately, no big deal.
Once the entire package is out on the ground, my advice would be to first seal the front tranny input area and the two connections for the cooler fittings, and then powerwash the entire unit, getting it as clean as ya possibly can. Only then proceed with removing the transfer case from the tranny. The key to a successful "re-seal" is cleanliness and attention to detail.
And regarding the tranny itself, that would be the time to adjust the two bands since the pan will be off for a filter and pan gasket replacement, along with the two seals involved with the shift tower.
The front tranny leak is "normally" the seal which engages the nose of the torque converter. Behind that seal is a bushing, standard practice is to always replace the bushing along with the seal. For a novice, that is easier to do if the front pump is removed from the tranny but that is not imperative. There is a large "square cut" "o" ring that seals the peripheral of the front pump, but I've never seen a leak at that point unless the case itself was damaged during a previous overhaul attempt. And each of the bolts which retain the front pump have a special sealing washer which is an important item.
Removing the front pump will involve the use of a "technique" that is important to follow, and also requires at least one (preferably two) small slide hammer(s)or a shop-fabbed equivalent. For pump replacement, you will need to fab two line-up studs using 5/16"x18tpi bolts about three inches long.
The "seal" or "soft parts" kits available for the tf727 will have everything needed for the tranny but will also have several parts that are not used on the Scout II/IH variation. And...the output shaft seal in those kits will not work onna sii 4x4. That is why we have to source those two seals separately.
Ihon also has reseal kits for the d20 transfer case.
Another thing to pay attention to at that time would be the tranny mount itself, along with the shift cable and it's retaining clip.
The absolute best reference for the 727 tranny is..."torqueflite a-727 transmission handbook" by carl munroe. Isbn#1-55788-413-7. It even has several mentions of the ihc torqueflite variation! It has nothing included regarding a "married" 4x4 transfer case application, so the only real difference is the use of the tc adapter which uses the "special" output bearing and the two seals previously mentioned.
To replace those seals, the adapter does not have to be removed from the tranny, but is does need to come off if ya wanna replace the gasket between the tranny case itself and the adapter. There are no other soft parts in that tailhousing/adapter that need attention.
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Thanks for the info michael, that's about how much time I figured for an amateur like me. The good thing is I have two of these tranny's but the other has a d300 on it. I will keep you posted as I go along. This weekend is pretty shot I will probably pull it tomorrow and that's it. Got to go hunting you know.
Jonsalter74
Member
I have the IH version of the torqueflite 727 in and a Scout II with a 304, I just had the trany rebuilt about 2000 miles ago, but the truck has been sitting for 2 years now. I just now got it back on the road, the first couple of days that I drove it all seemed fine but now it will not up shift into third gear. It shifts into all other gears including reverse, 1st and 2nd find but it will not jump up into the drive gear. Does anyone have any ideas on what might be wrong., and how to fix it?
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Welcome to the ihon forums jonsalter!
I believe what you are experiencing is a fairly common issue concerning vehicles that are not operated for lengthy periods of time. And that does not just include transmissions! Engines are greatly affected as well! Most especially the IH I-4 and sv motors can gobble the cam oem bearings under that type of "non-use".
The 727, like all other automatic transmissions are extremely complicated in their hydraulic circuitry. Very tight tolerances inside the valve body and governor assembly. Depending upon your shop situation, tool situation, and wrenching ability, there are some things you can possibly do yourself to make the tranny play nice again.
First off...do not add any kind of liquid snake oil to this transmission!!!! Please!!! That will fix nothing!
What is the year model of the vehicle in question and is the 727 original to the vin on that rig?? There are some major differences regarding the valve body between the "early" and "late" 727 used in the Scout II platform.
edit: I just found your other thread and see the rig under discussion is m/y '74. Are you sure that the engine/tranny/driveline is original to that vehicle??
Was the tranny shifting properly after the overhaul/re-install (I mean perfect operation??). Who did the install, a pro shop or you? Was it shifting properly when it was last operated and then parked?
Are you absolutely certain that the shifter/shift cable is correctly adjusted?? This is a very tedious operation onna Scout II, especially with an old, rotten cable, and will affect what you are experiencing. Before moving ahead in diagnostics, you must verify correct shifter/cable adjustment and operation through the entire range of motion of the shift lever, that May involve two people to do this, one to operate the lever, another underneath to observe operation.
Have you attempted to adjust/change the throttle pressure control from the carb linkage (the so-called "kickdown")?? If so, did that do anything regarding overall shifting either up or down?
Other than shift cable adjustment/verification, there are most likely two issues affecting what you describe.
A) the 2/3 shift valve is sticking/hanging in the valve body.
B) the governor internal components are sticking/stuck.
Both of these conditions are caused by the "sitting syndrome" in most cases. That is due to internal corrosion (possibly not even visible to the naked eye) of these parts made to extremely precise tolerance and fit. This type corrosion is caused by drainback of the hydraulic fluid and lack of parts movement on a normal basis and is the byproduct of moisture condensation inside the transmission (same thing happens inside an in-op engine).
While it's possible that continued attempts at driving the rig "might" suddenly cause the "stuck" parts to free up and normal operation resume, in the mean time severe internal tranny damage can result also!
So give us some more information and we'll see where to go from here. Both of the conditions that I suspect May be root cause for your problem can be corrected with the tranny installed in the vehicle. But to service the governor mechanism, the transfer case and transfer case adapter (tail housing) must be removed. And the governor assembly itself must be treated as if it's inna "clean room" environment!
I believe what you are experiencing is a fairly common issue concerning vehicles that are not operated for lengthy periods of time. And that does not just include transmissions! Engines are greatly affected as well! Most especially the IH I-4 and sv motors can gobble the cam oem bearings under that type of "non-use".
The 727, like all other automatic transmissions are extremely complicated in their hydraulic circuitry. Very tight tolerances inside the valve body and governor assembly. Depending upon your shop situation, tool situation, and wrenching ability, there are some things you can possibly do yourself to make the tranny play nice again.
First off...do not add any kind of liquid snake oil to this transmission!!!! Please!!! That will fix nothing!
What is the year model of the vehicle in question and is the 727 original to the vin on that rig?? There are some major differences regarding the valve body between the "early" and "late" 727 used in the Scout II platform.
edit: I just found your other thread and see the rig under discussion is m/y '74. Are you sure that the engine/tranny/driveline is original to that vehicle??
Was the tranny shifting properly after the overhaul/re-install (I mean perfect operation??). Who did the install, a pro shop or you? Was it shifting properly when it was last operated and then parked?
Are you absolutely certain that the shifter/shift cable is correctly adjusted?? This is a very tedious operation onna Scout II, especially with an old, rotten cable, and will affect what you are experiencing. Before moving ahead in diagnostics, you must verify correct shifter/cable adjustment and operation through the entire range of motion of the shift lever, that May involve two people to do this, one to operate the lever, another underneath to observe operation.
Have you attempted to adjust/change the throttle pressure control from the carb linkage (the so-called "kickdown")?? If so, did that do anything regarding overall shifting either up or down?
Other than shift cable adjustment/verification, there are most likely two issues affecting what you describe.
A) the 2/3 shift valve is sticking/hanging in the valve body.
B) the governor internal components are sticking/stuck.
Both of these conditions are caused by the "sitting syndrome" in most cases. That is due to internal corrosion (possibly not even visible to the naked eye) of these parts made to extremely precise tolerance and fit. This type corrosion is caused by drainback of the hydraulic fluid and lack of parts movement on a normal basis and is the byproduct of moisture condensation inside the transmission (same thing happens inside an in-op engine).
While it's possible that continued attempts at driving the rig "might" suddenly cause the "stuck" parts to free up and normal operation resume, in the mean time severe internal tranny damage can result also!
So give us some more information and we'll see where to go from here. Both of the conditions that I suspect May be root cause for your problem can be corrected with the tranny installed in the vehicle. But to service the governor mechanism, the transfer case and transfer case adapter (tail housing) must be removed. And the governor assembly itself must be treated as if it's inna "clean room" environment!
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Jonsalter74
Member
Thank you for the reply. When I got the transmission rebuilt the tranny worked great. I had it rebuilt by a professional shop. My Scout is a 74. I am resonably sure it is the original drive line (so said the people I bought it from) however I will verify the numbers and make sure. I have not checked the the shift cable however I had to pull the shift cable two weeks ago to get at the neutral switch. It shifted fine after I reinstaled it but possible it has sliped or come out of adjustment. Also I had the carb off and rebuilt it so maybe the kick down is out of adjustment as well. I will check both of these this week and see what I come up with. If you have any more suggestions please let me know I will post what I find out later.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Great! That's want we wanna hear...logical progression!
If...the kickdown is held all the way "back" (full line pressure mode), then it would not upshift to 3rd until around 60>70mph depending upon tire size and gearing. Maybe the kickdown linkage needs attention since ya did remove at least part of that when ya diddles the carb.
See this recent post from chris, which also contains some other links to the "kickdown" subject:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...-727-kickdown-linkage-how-heck-does-work.html
If...the kickdown is held all the way "back" (full line pressure mode), then it would not upshift to 3rd until around 60>70mph depending upon tire size and gearing. Maybe the kickdown linkage needs attention since ya did remove at least part of that when ya diddles the carb.
See this recent post from chris, which also contains some other links to the "kickdown" subject:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...-727-kickdown-linkage-how-heck-does-work.html
DF Sales&Marketing
Oil Tech Moderator
Michael,
I'd just like to add the fact that the swepco 714-20 atf is a great product to use in those trannies..... In fact you can use it as a replacement for all dexron, most mercon, and all chrysler specifications including the atf+4.
It provides smoother, yet more positive shifting to help reduce heat build up and has a higher additive package than anything else on the market. Transmissions typically run cooler, even without add - on transmission coolers.
I've supplied customers for practically any type of application, including from toyota to cat haul trucks, as well as drag car racing.
Jeff also stocks this item for his customers.
Dick
I'd just like to add the fact that the swepco 714-20 atf is a great product to use in those trannies..... In fact you can use it as a replacement for all dexron, most mercon, and all chrysler specifications including the atf+4.
It provides smoother, yet more positive shifting to help reduce heat build up and has a higher additive package than anything else on the market. Transmissions typically run cooler, even without add - on transmission coolers.
I've supplied customers for practically any type of application, including from toyota to cat haul trucks, as well as drag car racing.
Jeff also stocks this item for his customers.
Dick
Jonsalter74
Member
Ok I know it has been a while but with the hollidays I just have not been able to even look at the Scout. Ok this is what I have done.
I checked the kickdown and it looks like it is correctly adjusted. It is all the way forward when the throttle is closed, seems to have a full range of motion through out the travel of the throttle.
I also checked the shifter cable, it is new and appears to be in good shape. The cable feels like it engages all the shift points but in the transmission does not shift into the gears. If I am driving the Scout and shift through the gears it will go into first gear but not into the rest.
This is the full senario gear by gear:
park: works fine
reverse: works fine
nuetral: works fine
1st: when the truck is in drive it starts out in first and works fine.
2nd: the Scout does not shift up into 2nd from first while the truck in dive or when it is manualy shifted in to secound.
Drive gear: does not shift up to drive by manualy shifting or by increasing speed.
If this is a valve body problem such as the 1/2 valve and the 2/3 valve sticking do you have any pictures or a link so that I can either replace the valves or try to unstick them.
The other problem that was suggested was the govener in the back of the transmission being stuck if this is the case, is there a place I can go for some pictures and a run down with how to do this.
I am trying not to take this to a tranny guy because everytime they look at the thing I have to sell a body part to pay for it. If you have any more suggestions on what to try or need more information let me know I May have to sell some digits.
Thanks
I checked the kickdown and it looks like it is correctly adjusted. It is all the way forward when the throttle is closed, seems to have a full range of motion through out the travel of the throttle.
I also checked the shifter cable, it is new and appears to be in good shape. The cable feels like it engages all the shift points but in the transmission does not shift into the gears. If I am driving the Scout and shift through the gears it will go into first gear but not into the rest.
This is the full senario gear by gear:
park: works fine
reverse: works fine
nuetral: works fine
1st: when the truck is in drive it starts out in first and works fine.
2nd: the Scout does not shift up into 2nd from first while the truck in dive or when it is manualy shifted in to secound.
Drive gear: does not shift up to drive by manualy shifting or by increasing speed.
If this is a valve body problem such as the 1/2 valve and the 2/3 valve sticking do you have any pictures or a link so that I can either replace the valves or try to unstick them.
The other problem that was suggested was the govener in the back of the transmission being stuck if this is the case, is there a place I can go for some pictures and a run down with how to do this.
I am trying not to take this to a tranny guy because everytime they look at the thing I have to sell a body part to pay for it. If you have any more suggestions on what to try or need more information let me know I May have to sell some digits.
Thanks
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Sorry I overlooked this post jon!
One more thing to try...review the "band adjustment" thread in this forum and adjust the front (kickdown) band, paying close attention as to whether it's very "loose" as I described. This is a shot in the dark, but since the tranny is a fairly recent overhaul, it's possible the band was not adjusted properly when being rebuilt. I've repaired two trannys in the last year or so that had that issue. It's definitely worth a try.
Do not drop the pan and mess with the low/reverse band, that is not your problem!
Then if the upshift problem still exists, here's an idea...
I'll start a new thread on how to r&r a valve body inna Scout II 727 application. I'll do this with a tranny on the bench...pics of each step as I normally do. With normal hand tools you can certainly do this yourself and there is little/no chance of scruuin' up anything.
I'd rather you did not try and tear into a valve body on your own. Yeah ...with several books ya might be able to struggle through this, but it's not something I'd attempt if you did not have close supervision. I taught this kinda stuff inna community college for 14 years so I do know that doing this type training inna classroom setting is very problematic, much easier to do one-on-one! And I do this kinda stuff here for folks one-on-one fairly often.
But here's an offer ya can't beat...I'll send you a fresh valve body (no tf-2 kit unless ya wanna pay for that extra). It will be ready to install, and I'll shoot some pics and do a simple narrative regarding tearing into it so folks can see how tedious this is. But the one you will receive will be plug and play in your transmission and will function as new.
If that solves the problem, then you will call Jeff at ihon and he's gonna nick yore credit card for $85 plus the cost of shipping (about $15). If you want a tf-2 kit installed, then the total cost for the parts and overhaul/install/mods will be $178 plus the same shipping charge. Then you will return your current core valve body to me (instructions will be included) and we'll all be happy! These prices are way under what a local tranny shop would charge for the same deal.
If this does not fix it, or makes it "better" but not perfect, then I'll talk ya through removing and servicing the governor. In order to do that, you will have to remove the transfer case and set aside. Then you will need to secure the engine in the frame and remove the tranny cross member and then the output gear and tailhousing. This will allow access to the governor. The tranny does not have to come out of the frame for doing this operation.
Servicing the governor must be done in a very clean manner. It is a simple system, but ya really have to play close attention to the way the parts come out...and go back in!
You can contact your tranny guy regarding the cost of r&r and rebuild of your valve body, I'm betting his quote will be in the neighborhood of $315, so by going the diy route you are able to save at least one hand's worth of digits.
Or...ya could have the tranny guy do a complete "oil pressure" diagnostic on it to come to the conclusion the valve body has issues, cost for that would be around $165 I'm guessing just for the diagnostic, no repair!
One more thing to try...review the "band adjustment" thread in this forum and adjust the front (kickdown) band, paying close attention as to whether it's very "loose" as I described. This is a shot in the dark, but since the tranny is a fairly recent overhaul, it's possible the band was not adjusted properly when being rebuilt. I've repaired two trannys in the last year or so that had that issue. It's definitely worth a try.
Do not drop the pan and mess with the low/reverse band, that is not your problem!
Then if the upshift problem still exists, here's an idea...
I'll start a new thread on how to r&r a valve body inna Scout II 727 application. I'll do this with a tranny on the bench...pics of each step as I normally do. With normal hand tools you can certainly do this yourself and there is little/no chance of scruuin' up anything.
I'd rather you did not try and tear into a valve body on your own. Yeah ...with several books ya might be able to struggle through this, but it's not something I'd attempt if you did not have close supervision. I taught this kinda stuff inna community college for 14 years so I do know that doing this type training inna classroom setting is very problematic, much easier to do one-on-one! And I do this kinda stuff here for folks one-on-one fairly often.
But here's an offer ya can't beat...I'll send you a fresh valve body (no tf-2 kit unless ya wanna pay for that extra). It will be ready to install, and I'll shoot some pics and do a simple narrative regarding tearing into it so folks can see how tedious this is. But the one you will receive will be plug and play in your transmission and will function as new.
If that solves the problem, then you will call Jeff at ihon and he's gonna nick yore credit card for $85 plus the cost of shipping (about $15). If you want a tf-2 kit installed, then the total cost for the parts and overhaul/install/mods will be $178 plus the same shipping charge. Then you will return your current core valve body to me (instructions will be included) and we'll all be happy! These prices are way under what a local tranny shop would charge for the same deal.
If this does not fix it, or makes it "better" but not perfect, then I'll talk ya through removing and servicing the governor. In order to do that, you will have to remove the transfer case and set aside. Then you will need to secure the engine in the frame and remove the tranny cross member and then the output gear and tailhousing. This will allow access to the governor. The tranny does not have to come out of the frame for doing this operation.
Servicing the governor must be done in a very clean manner. It is a simple system, but ya really have to play close attention to the way the parts come out...and go back in!
You can contact your tranny guy regarding the cost of r&r and rebuild of your valve body, I'm betting his quote will be in the neighborhood of $315, so by going the diy route you are able to save at least one hand's worth of digits.
Or...ya could have the tranny guy do a complete "oil pressure" diagnostic on it to come to the conclusion the valve body has issues, cost for that would be around $165 I'm guessing just for the diagnostic, no repair!
Jonsalter74
Member
Thanks for the info, I will check the band for correct adjustment then if that does not work I will take you up on your valve body deal. Thanks for your help
IHC Torqueflite 727 interchange
I've read through the above posts, but would like to clarrify one thing...
Are there just two ihc tf727 versions? Scout with married transfer case, and pickup/Travelall?
In April I will picking up my Dad's old (and originally my grandpa's) '72 1210 4wd pickup with a 100k mile 392 (4-barrel Holley) and automatic. It is out of state, so I can't go id or check anything right now.
The truck was retired last year when it lost reverse. Apparently there is broken stuff in the pan. It was rebuilt and resealed about 20 years ago, and shifted great until it broke. No reverse on a farm truck = parked & tarped.
I'm assuming and hoping it's a tf727, but it is my 1972, when they shifted from bw to the tf.
Are all the 2wd/4wd pickup tf727's the same? All years? I'm not sure if I want to pick one up used and install it or rebuild the existing one. I'm very tight on cash (always have been, not just now) and my first goal is to get the truck driveable at least around town.
I'm a newbie, and hope I haven't asked a question that's already been answered here, but did look around for an hour or so last night...
Rob jacox
bend, or
soon to have a '72 1210
I've read through the above posts, but would like to clarrify one thing...
Are there just two ihc tf727 versions? Scout with married transfer case, and pickup/Travelall?
In April I will picking up my Dad's old (and originally my grandpa's) '72 1210 4wd pickup with a 100k mile 392 (4-barrel Holley) and automatic. It is out of state, so I can't go id or check anything right now.
The truck was retired last year when it lost reverse. Apparently there is broken stuff in the pan. It was rebuilt and resealed about 20 years ago, and shifted great until it broke. No reverse on a farm truck = parked & tarped.
I'm assuming and hoping it's a tf727, but it is my 1972, when they shifted from bw to the tf.
Are all the 2wd/4wd pickup tf727's the same? All years? I'm not sure if I want to pick one up used and install it or rebuild the existing one. I'm very tight on cash (always have been, not just now) and my first goal is to get the truck driveable at least around town.
I'm a newbie, and hope I haven't asked a question that's already been answered here, but did look around for an hour or so last night...
Rob jacox
bend, or
soon to have a '72 1210
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Welcome to the forum rob!!! What's with all this activity IH-wise outta bend recently?? I'm yore neighbor 65 miles west down hiway 126.
Regarding "which" tranny you might encounter, the "phase-in" of the tf 727 for IH apps was not a "clean vin cut" kinda deal...it was...a "phase-in". And many of the rigs which were oem with the borg warner slushbox have been converted over to 727 by now...in fact...I'm building a 727 right now for doing that, it's going into a '64 travelette.
Easiest way to tell for a novice to this stuff is simply use a magnet! If it sticks to the bellhousing/case of the tranny, it's a cast iron borg warner. If it don't stick , then it's an aluminum tf 727.
Same for the Scout 810/Scout II platform, the tf 727 was phased in, and yes...that one is only a married d20 transfer case app if 4x4.
A 4x4 pickall if oem with a 727 will have a divorced np 205 transfer case. If original with a borg warner slushbox, then it could be a np201 or who knows as nearly any tc could be "spec'd by a dealer for a fleet buy. The only thing that really matters is what the vehicle under discussion has...not what is "original"!
If the tranny is a 727, then yes, the 2x4 and 4x4 versions are the same, both use the very short tailhousing.
I would never go to all the trouble of installing an "unknown" used slushbox! Ya oughta see some of the "used" ones I have here in the shop right now!!!
The "no reverse" issue is quite common, that is caused by lack of maintenance over the years and is not a fundamental "weakness" in a 727!!!! Anyone who claims that is full of shit!
The rear band is broken and the strut May have fallen into the pan. Just typical "overhaul" kinda stuff that is done every day.
If the tranny is a bw...then it could be a few other things...and while we do have a parts source for those trannys....rebuilding one is gonna run much more than swapping in a 727.
I do slushboxtranny work for ihon under "contract/sublet". If ya wanna take a trip down the hill I'll be glad to show ya some pickall versions of a 727 undergoing build now, and I do have a few cores that will be suitable for a swap if you go that route.
Making up mounts and all is no problem, but the 727 inna pickall is a side mount tranny and the oem mounts for those two points are very pricey. And by far the best solution for the "kickdown" and throttle control is the lokar cable set up. The bw tranny uses both a vacuum system and and electric switch for that function, totally different from a tf 727 which used no vacuum.
The rig discussed in these threads is a m/y '71 (build date of feb./71) and izza bw slushbox. It also had no reverse (prolly why it was parked many years ago):
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/I-h-s-t-o/815-miz-phelpsette-phase-II.html
Come on down for a visit!!!
P.s. I'd be more than happy to work with ya on bringing the family heirloom to life! I have many friends around the country who are doing the same right now, many of 'em were raised in the rig, raised their own kids in the rig, and now their grandkids are doing restos on the same rig!!!
Regarding "which" tranny you might encounter, the "phase-in" of the tf 727 for IH apps was not a "clean vin cut" kinda deal...it was...a "phase-in". And many of the rigs which were oem with the borg warner slushbox have been converted over to 727 by now...in fact...I'm building a 727 right now for doing that, it's going into a '64 travelette.
Easiest way to tell for a novice to this stuff is simply use a magnet! If it sticks to the bellhousing/case of the tranny, it's a cast iron borg warner. If it don't stick , then it's an aluminum tf 727.
Same for the Scout 810/Scout II platform, the tf 727 was phased in, and yes...that one is only a married d20 transfer case app if 4x4.
A 4x4 pickall if oem with a 727 will have a divorced np 205 transfer case. If original with a borg warner slushbox, then it could be a np201 or who knows as nearly any tc could be "spec'd by a dealer for a fleet buy. The only thing that really matters is what the vehicle under discussion has...not what is "original"!
If the tranny is a 727, then yes, the 2x4 and 4x4 versions are the same, both use the very short tailhousing.
I would never go to all the trouble of installing an "unknown" used slushbox! Ya oughta see some of the "used" ones I have here in the shop right now!!!
The "no reverse" issue is quite common, that is caused by lack of maintenance over the years and is not a fundamental "weakness" in a 727!!!! Anyone who claims that is full of shit!
The rear band is broken and the strut May have fallen into the pan. Just typical "overhaul" kinda stuff that is done every day.
If the tranny is a bw...then it could be a few other things...and while we do have a parts source for those trannys....rebuilding one is gonna run much more than swapping in a 727.
I do slushboxtranny work for ihon under "contract/sublet". If ya wanna take a trip down the hill I'll be glad to show ya some pickall versions of a 727 undergoing build now, and I do have a few cores that will be suitable for a swap if you go that route.
Making up mounts and all is no problem, but the 727 inna pickall is a side mount tranny and the oem mounts for those two points are very pricey. And by far the best solution for the "kickdown" and throttle control is the lokar cable set up. The bw tranny uses both a vacuum system and and electric switch for that function, totally different from a tf 727 which used no vacuum.
The rig discussed in these threads is a m/y '71 (build date of feb./71) and izza bw slushbox. It also had no reverse (prolly why it was parked many years ago):
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/I-h-s-t-o/815-miz-phelpsette-phase-II.html
Come on down for a visit!!!
P.s. I'd be more than happy to work with ya on bringing the family heirloom to life! I have many friends around the country who are doing the same right now, many of 'em were raised in the rig, raised their own kids in the rig, and now their grandkids are doing restos on the same rig!!!
From what I know, I'm almost certain it's a 727. It is all-original, for sure. It's been in the family since day-one, I drove it regularly in high-school (yup, in big-city san jose, CA, in the 1980's, I was cool enough to drive a hot-rod, 4-barrel, dual exhaust, loud and ugly farm truck to school!).
Glad to see there are I-h guys local (I'll count leaburg as local). I've got a former customer of mine that has quite a few e/70's pickups in various stages of dis-repair, I'm trying to track him down. I need a few body/interior parts, but that's for another time.
We're heading up to washington (where my folks now live) in late March or early April - after there is "no chance" of snow - to tow it home on a flatbed. When that time comes, I'll probably be a real nuisance on this forum for awhile...
My Dad does have an original (in excellent condition) 1972 I-h pickup/Travelall service manual I'll be getting with it.
Glad to see there are I-h guys local (I'll count leaburg as local). I've got a former customer of mine that has quite a few e/70's pickups in various stages of dis-repair, I'm trying to track him down. I need a few body/interior parts, but that's for another time.
We're heading up to washington (where my folks now live) in late March or early April - after there is "no chance" of snow - to tow it home on a flatbed. When that time comes, I'll probably be a real nuisance on this forum for awhile...
My Dad does have an original (in excellent condition) 1972 I-h pickup/Travelall service manual I'll be getting with it.
Bill USN-1
F.I. Moderator
Mike,
I agree with 99% of what you say but this statement I think is a little off.
I have bolted a chrysler tc to a Scout flywheel/flexplate that still had it's own ring gear on it.
Maybe it was a one in a thousand chance, but it did bolt up.
It's been years ago so I can't tell you the specific application it went to. But since no IH tc had a ring gear that I know of.. It certainly wasn't intended for the IH 727. But it fit.
I agree with 99% of what you say but this statement I think is a little off.
I have bolted a chrysler tc to a Scout flywheel/flexplate that still had it's own ring gear on it.
Maybe it was a one in a thousand chance, but it did bolt up.
It's been years ago so I can't tell you the specific application it went to. But since no IH tc had a ring gear that I know of.. It certainly wasn't intended for the IH 727. But it fit.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Yes...it will "bolt-up". Given that the entire balance situation is somewhat different between "all" the engines (various oem designs) that might have had a tf 727 torque converter, there has certainly been much mixing and mingling of torque converters amongst applications in the last 35+ years, no doubt others have done the same. With a resulting considerable "out-of-balance" situation.
Thus my statement with the two words..."extensive mods".
Torque converter rebuilders "convert" the various cores form one application to another every day, they have to in order to be able to continue to supply replacements to the industry. The basic torqueflite as we know it has been around for over 45 years! Remove a ring gear...add a ring gear...correct the balance by removing or adding balance weight pads, etc.
Bill USN-1
F.I. Moderator
I'm sure they're out there but I have not personally seen a converter that wasn't zero balanced. They May have a balance plate or dill marks to get them to zero.
Flexplates and dampners yes. Many engines are externally balanced and I also understand the importance of having a clutch or converters balance checked when building a motor but I don't include them in my motor balance.
They are replaceable so I don't want my motor's balance to be thrown off if I change a clutch or a converter.
Do you have any data that shows a 727 converter being balanced at something other then zero?
Flexplates and dampners yes. Many engines are externally balanced and I also understand the importance of having a clutch or converters balance checked when building a motor but I don't include them in my motor balance.
They are replaceable so I don't want my motor's balance to be thrown off if I change a clutch or a converter.
Do you have any data that shows a 727 converter being balanced at something other then zero?
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Find a copy of the carl munroe torqueflite bible and you will find the entire process explained...pp. 150>155 inclusive.
Bill USN-1
F.I. Moderator
Thanks, I already own it.
Will check it out.
Will check it out.
Bill USN-1
F.I. Moderator
Ok Mike.
It was a good refresher reading up on the 727 converters again.
I don't know why I forget my own library sometimes.
I'm sure you came to the same conclusion, that according to the chart the 6cyl and 318 converters all use 0 balance weights.
Now if the IH converters on my shelf are representative of all of them, then the IH converter also uses no balance weight.
I would conclude that if it physically fits with the ring gear still on it that the 6cyl and 318 converters would work for an IH 727.
Obviously this would not be ideal but if you are in a pinch to get your daily driver up and running by Monday morning and all they have is 318 converters on the shelf.......
The other side of this is a choice of stall speeds!
It was a good refresher reading up on the 727 converters again.
I don't know why I forget my own library sometimes.
I'm sure you came to the same conclusion, that according to the chart the 6cyl and 318 converters all use 0 balance weights.
Now if the IH converters on my shelf are representative of all of them, then the IH converter also uses no balance weight.
I would conclude that if it physically fits with the ring gear still on it that the 6cyl and 318 converters would work for an IH 727.
Obviously this would not be ideal but if you are in a pinch to get your daily driver up and running by Monday morning and all they have is 318 converters on the shelf.......
The other side of this is a choice of stall speeds!
Attachments
Erik VanRenselaar
Member
That munroe book is good. Not much IH-specific info, but still good for any 727 owner.
Bill USN-1
F.I. Moderator
I agree.
I was pleased when I found the modification section included the tf-2 install along with a few insider tips for improving the 727.
Some I incorporate in my rebuilds and some I don't.
But they have all held up so far!
Erik VanRenselaar
Member
Does the new tfod psk shift kit (transgo) incorporate all the previous mods of the tf-2 kit (I.e.: noyoyo)?
I've got a B&M shift improver kit in my 727, as it was quick to obtain at the time.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Yes it does...transgo consolidated stuff a few years back.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
ok Mike.
It was a good refresher reading up on the 727 converters again.
I don't know why I forget my own library sometimes.
I'm sure you came to the same conclusion, that according to the chart the 6cyl and 318 converters all use 0 balance weights.
Now if the IH converters on my shelf are representative of all of them, then the IH converter also uses no balance weight.
I would conclude that if it physically fits with the ring gear still on it that the 6cyl and 318 converters would work for an IH 727.
Obviously this would not be ideal but if you are in a pinch to get your daily driver up and running by Monday morning and all they have is 318 converters on the shelf.......
The other side of this is a choice of stall speeds!
Both of the Scout II torque converter cores I have currently have balance weights (for dynamic balance of the converter only).
And one more point to watch...the "early" tf727 converters (and trannys) used an input shaft with 19 splines. Those converters are out there and might well end up being used as a core for an IH application after removal of the ring gear. Of course, it would take a major hammer job to attempt to install that on any IH-version of a tf727.
When these cores go to the rebuilders, they simply get thrown in tubs for later cutting apart so that any "useable" component May be cleaned and re-used.