Torqueflite 727 Guapo

bill usn-1 said:
Mike,
I agree with 99% of what you say but this statement I think is a little off.



I have bolted a chrysler tc to a Scout flywheel/flexplate that still had it's own ring gear on it.
Maybe it was a one in a thousand chance, but it did bolt up.
It's been years ago so I can't tell you the specific application it went to. But since no IH tc had a ring gear that I know of.. It certainly wasn't intended for the IH 727. But it fit.
Click to expand...

Yes...it will "bolt-up". Given that the entire balance situation is somewhat different between "all" the engines (various oem designs) that might have had a tf 727 torque converter, there has certainly been much mixing and mingling of torque converters amongst applications in the last 35+ years, no doubt others have done the same. With a resulting considerable "out-of-balance" situation.

Thus my statement with the two words..."extensive mods".

Torque converter rebuilders "convert" the various cores form one application to another every day, they have to in order to be able to continue to supply replacements to the industry. The basic torqueflite as we know it has been around for over 45 years! Remove a ring gear...add a ring gear...correct the balance by removing or adding balance weight pads, etc.
 
I'm sure they're out there but I have not personally seen a converter that wasn't zero balanced. They May have a balance plate or dill marks to get them to zero.

Flexplates and dampners yes. Many engines are externally balanced and I also understand the importance of having a clutch or converters balance checked when building a motor but I don't include them in my motor balance.
They are replaceable so I don't want my motor's balance to be thrown off if I change a clutch or a converter.

Do you have any data that shows a 727 converter being balanced at something other then zero?
 
Find a copy of the carl munroe torqueflite bible and you will find the entire process explained...pp. 150>155 inclusive.
 
Ok Mike.
It was a good refresher reading up on the 727 converters again.
I don't know why I forget my own library sometimes.
I'm sure you came to the same conclusion, that according to the chart the 6cyl and 318 converters all use 0 balance weights.
Now if the IH converters on my shelf are representative of all of them, then the IH converter also uses no balance weight.

I would conclude that if it physically fits with the ring gear still on it that the 6cyl and 318 converters would work for an IH 727.
Obviously this would not be ideal but if you are in a pinch to get your daily driver up and running by Monday morning and all they have is 318 converters on the shelf.......

The other side of this is a choice of stall speeds!:smilewinkgrin:
 

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that munroe book is good. Not much IH-specific info, but still good for any 727 owner
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I agree.
I was pleased when I found the modification section included the tf-2 install along with a few insider tips for improving the 727.
Some I incorporate in my rebuilds and some I don't.
But they have all held up so far!:icon_smile:
 
bill usn-1 said:
ok Mike.
It was a good refresher reading up on the 727 converters again.
I don't know why I forget my own library sometimes.
I'm sure you came to the same conclusion, that according to the chart the 6cyl and 318 converters all use 0 balance weights.
Now if the IH converters on my shelf are representative of all of them, then the IH converter also uses no balance weight.

I would conclude that if it physically fits with the ring gear still on it that the 6cyl and 318 converters would work for an IH 727.
Obviously this would not be ideal but if you are in a pinch to get your daily driver up and running by Monday morning and all they have is 318 converters on the shelf.......

The other side of this is a choice of stall speeds!:smilewinkgrin:
Click to expand...

Both of the Scout II torque converter cores I have currently have balance weights (for dynamic balance of the converter only).

And one more point to watch...the "early" tf727 converters (and trannys) used an input shaft with 19 splines. Those converters are out there and might well end up being used as a core for an IH application after removal of the ring gear. Of course, it would take a major hammer job to attempt to install that on any IH-version of a tf727.

When these cores go to the rebuilders, they simply get thrown in tubs for later cutting apart so that any "useable" component May be cleaned and re-used.
 
Ok I have anouther 727 question. A while back in this post I was having shifting problems, I have tried to adjust the band with no luck, and so I am guessing it must be the valve body. Yesterday I got some time and the rain stopped so I crawled under the truck to try and fix it finaly. I dilled a hole in my pan to put in a drain plug, (I have done the whole pull the pan and drowned in tranny fluid enough times) then I took out the old filter and saw some dark residue in the bottom of the pan, not a lot but enough I was curious. So I downloaded some instructions for pulling the valve body and proceeded to pull the valve body. It came out with out a hitch and I saw no problems on the outside of the valve body. I know most the problems would be inside but I dont know much about the inside of a valve body. Anyway it seemed like all looked well but when now that I have put it back in the transmission does not shift into any gears, I can feel it shifting into the gates but not engaging the gears. It is also very tight going into park. Does anyone have any ideas what I did?
 
Any debris/residue in a "mound" in the pan under the filter is perfectly normal, that is where the stuff precipitates out.

And there is no way to determine if a valve body has any issues without complete disassembly. The closest you can come to that is run a full battery of pressure tests on the tranny. With the valve body "down", you can run a set of tests however using compressed air directly on the case ports. That only tells ya that "actuation" is occurring, it will not tell ya that friction material on bands/clutches is gone, the governor is not working properly, etc.

When you put the valve body back into position, ya sure ya didn't disengage the manual shift valve from the tang that is attached to the rooster comb and moves the shift valve?? That's all I can tell ya without pics.

If it doesn't engage park easily, ya sure the rod that operates the parking pawl in the tail housing is properly attached to the shift rooster comb also? If all this came about after re-mounting the valve body, then that should tell ya ya did something wrong!

Heres a pic of proper rooster comb assembly in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/transmission-tech/1751-727-throttle-pressure-shaft.html
 
Thanks for the imput, and the pictures, I think I figured out the instalation problem. I think I put the tab on the rooster tail ontop of the pressure valve rather than between the gooves on the pressure valve. This would keep the rooster tail from fully depressing into park from what I see. I also spoke with a transmission guy from monroe tansmission in newcastle CA and he tells me that my earlier problems are probebly a stuck governor. Does any one have any pictures of the governor or can describe how I can tell if it is stuck and how to unstick it?
 
To service a governor, the transfer case and tailhousing must be removed.

The governor is then dissembled and removed. It must be treated when being serviced with surgical cleanliness!

If it's "stuck" that is because microscopic debris is circulating in the hydraulic circuits, same thing that sticks the other spools in the valve body.

When the governor is removed, there will be two "piston rings" on the support, those need to be replaced also. Along with the gasket between the tailhousing and the case, and the gasket between the tailhousing and the transfer case. And while the tailhousing is off, replace the two seals behind the bull gear.

When replacing the governor, all components must be lubricated with a lube designed for that application, that does not mean ya use atf to lubricate the components.

If the output shaft bearing behind the bull gear needs to be replaced, there is only one source for the correct bearing...that is here at ihon.

Here is a pic of the governor which also contains the parking stop.

I'd highly advise you find a copy of the munroe torqueflite bible before attempting a governor service.
 

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I pulled the pan again on Monday and sure enough the pressure valve was not correctly positioned, once I adjusted that then everything went back to normal, I have all the gears that I should and the rig is runnning good.
 
Good deal jon! Ya stuck with it, found the problem and now yore a happeecamper! I'm so glad ya didn't rip into the gvvernor...we'd never heard the end of that!
 
So I should have knocked on wood because the non shifting gremlin in my torqueflite is back. I guess we spoke too soon. It was working great up untill this morning and it would not jump out of first gear. It would at times jump up to second and but never third. Once again it will not manualy select the gears and my tack is jumping all over the place. It will bounce rapidly between 1000 and 2000 rpms and start running rough, but when I put my foot on the go peddle it will even out. I dont know what is going on I am going out to by a munroe book but I am open to ideas on what is wrong.
 
bill usn-1 said:
ok Mike.
It was a good refresher reading up on the 727 converters again.
I don't know why I forget my own library sometimes.
I'm sure you came to the same conclusion, that according to the chart the 6cyl and 318 converters all use 0 balance weights.
Now if the IH converters on my shelf are representative of all of them, then the IH converter also uses no balance weight.

I would conclude that if it physically fits with the ring gear still on it that the 6cyl and 318 converters would work for an IH 727.
Obviously this would not be ideal but if you are in a pinch to get your daily driver up and running by Monday morning and all they have is 318 converters on the shelf.......

The other side of this is a choice of stall speeds!:smilewinkgrin:
Click to expand...

Bill your application chart covers chrysler's, do you have one for amc? The old hornets and such ran 727 without the ring gear welded to the tq and neutral balanced. Just wondering if those would cross over too.
 
Any reputable torque converter "builder" can do any version of a tf 727 converter you would ever want. IH-spec converters are certainly not difficult to obtain as a rebuilt item through the major transmission parts warehouse distributors and remanners in any good size metro area.
 
michael mayben said:
any reputable torque converter "builder" can do any version of a tf 727 converter you would ever want. IH-spec converters are certainly not difficult to obtain as a rebuilt item through the major transmission parts warehouse distributors and remanners in any good size metro area.
Click to expand...

Thanks michael. I did called two, one offered to rebuild my core, the other said they did not offer anything for IH.
These were two very reputable company's. There seems to be a lot of variations in the 727, between all the applications. Ati told me there was even a 727 with a GM bolt pattern that was put in some mail jeeps.
Ati wanted to know the height of the converter as he was going to see if it was the same on the amc version they offer.
All converters they build are neutral balanced no weights. I looked online at several companies and they only list the chrysler and amc version. I will call a local shop and see what they offer.
 
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