Limited disassembly of a 1980 IC 196

Mark,
I have no idea what amount of temp drop one could expect.
The biggest factor will be the temp and volume of the water flowing through it. If you can plumb coolant from the pump out and back into the ts housing before the ts you'll have a good chance of cooling significantly. I would plan on seeing a oil temp to coolant delta of 15*-20* f.
 
Assume 15 to 20 degrees. That would be worthwhile for our purposes, wouldn't it? I agree it would be ideal to take coolant from the bottom of the radiator as it is being sucked up into the water pump for distribution. So it goes out of the pump, into the head, circulates around the jackets and goes up to the top of the head (and ts housing). It has gained a lot of heat by then, then goes out the ts housing and to the top of the radiator. Plucking the coolant out of the line in the top of the intake manifold still gets you this heated coolant. So in looking things over the question is where can you pick off "cool" coolant? Don't laugh, but if one were to remove the water pipe between the pump and the head and braze an outlet to it, one could pick off the coolest coolant and run it to the exchanger, then route this back to the pump's boss where the heater hose return is. I imagine that picking off coolant right before it goes into the front of the head shouldn't be a problem since those pumps have quite a bit of volume, right?
 
I like the water tube idea. The bottom/outlet of the radiator could be overly cool really as it will track out side air temps.
I have sourced water from the block drain port before on marine applications with good success. Warms oil along with coolant. It would be key to have a clean block in that case so the cooler won't get plugged with trash.
I like the IH bypass system as it will give nice balanced temps even while below the ts temp.

A question for you on the cooler mounting location. Can you mount it straight to the IH spin on filter adapter?
 
Couple of thoughts on the source of coolest water:
1) braze in a suitable nipple onto the top of the short tube between pump housing and block (or head if one didn't have an ic). I need to find someone who can braze as I don't know how nor have the equipment.
2) get a v8 pump housing and tap the unused left bank outlet for a fitting. This assumes the right side short tube would not be changed and the orientation of the lower hose inlet is the same. This is appealing...
3) I suppose yanking a core plug and figuring out how to attach a suitable tube is a possibility. Would have to run a hard line under the engine to the other side. The block drain nipple is too small for adequate flow.
4) to answer your last question. If I have time this weekend, I'll see if there's room between the spin-on adaptor and the filter. Easiest solution for that, of course, but I have plan b in the wings (cast a new adaptor).

The need for coolest water possible is that this "heat exchanger" is small and the greatest cooling occurs when the heat differential is great. Running it in-line from a heater hose would give mediocre results, at best. Oh, looking a pics of the Ford part - obviously the same company made the volvo part, judging from the internal construction.
 
Mark pietz said:
the need for coolest water possible is that this "heat exchanger" is small and the greatest cooling occurs when the heat differential is great.
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Good to get the most cooling with highest coolant/oil delta t.
But I don't necessarily agree with this being the best in this case. The best cooler variables are those that provide oil temperature stability, reach optimal temperature as quickly as possible and prevent oil reaching over desired temperatures under high effort conditions.
These criteria really dictate having some thermostat in the water plumbing that tracks oil temperatures.

I suppose taking whatever road you want and tweaking the variables as you go along.
 
Maybe my understanding of engine temps is faulty. I don't want to be obtuse here, just asking honest questions. Let's look at upper limits (asking you here for your opinion). My cooling system is heavy duty for this four banger - the components from a Scout 345 w/hd cooling package. 3-row radiator, shroud, big fan, hd fan clutch (off a GM - bolted right up). So I should run cool, which I believe on a real hot day May be 190 or even 195, with reserve if I put a/c on it. If my coolant runs even that hot or even 210 or so, how hot would my oil normally be? I have no idea under those conditions! So the real question is how hot will the coolest coolant be when it goes into the water pump? 185? 190?

Not trying to be difficult, just trying to get a perspective. Perhaps running it in series through my heater hose is the answer - definitely in the winter. Btw, I just checked and think that exchanger will hit the edge of the motor mount itself.
 
The "cooler" you are thinking about installing will equalize the oil and coolant temps, not decrease temps (oil or coolant). Once the engine reaches operating temp, the thermostat will hold both fluids at that number (I.e. 180 deg). If the oil runs hotter, the excess heat will be absorbed by the coolant and whisked away by the radiator. It will be a sweet addition to your build. Its just not a cooler in the usual sense. Finding the coldest source of coolant really doesn't matter. And it sounds like your radiator is up to the task. Keep posting and let us know how it goes!
 
dealbreaker74 said:
the "cooler" you are thinking about installing will equalize the oil and coolant temps, not decrease temps (oil or coolant). Once the engine reaches operating temp, the thermostat will hold both fluids at that number (I.e. 180 deg). If the oil runs hotter, the excess heat will be absorbed by the coolant and whisked away by the radiator. It will be a sweet addition to your build. Its just not a cooler in the usual sense. Finding the coldest source of coolant really doesn't matter. And it sounds like your radiator is up to the task. Keep posting and let us know how it goes!
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Good point. I'm tired of overthinking this. As an aside, recent posts on bp about the oem oil/coolant heat exchanger got me really thinking about this. However, it won't fit a Scout due to the side motor mounts. The volvo setup is essentially the same albeit with a smaller element. I believe it can be adapted to clear the left side motor mount as the engine block end is small and only necessary as a mount, where the IH oem stacked the original spin-on filter adapter onto a large casting (more a spacer) that supported the whole affair. The volvo style hangs the filter off the very end of the unit. I think the oem style picked off coolant from the head, so we're back where we started. It May not really matter.
 
Mark pietz said:
maybe my understanding of engine temps is faulty. I don't want to be obtuse here, just asking honest questions.
Click to expand...

And I'm just giving honest answers based on my real life experience. :lol:

from my experience through out the years, and viewing all types of engine recommendation on max oil temperatures,
preferred ot= 180f
maximum ot= 250f

safe or green band about 50% of that range as a peak.

As I said previously and db stated, your cooler will track the coolant temperature with a small offset depending on heat generation/ transfer to oil.

The example I briefly discussed in my first post to your thread on this subject if a marine application.
I do not hesitate to run the v8 at 80-100% of wot for a long period time (30 mins ) with a 160* ts oil temps never pass 170*.
Plumbed from the block drain port on one bank and back to the wp.
 
Perfect! So you are running coolant from a block drain nipple? I didn't think that would be a large enough hole (1/8" npt on an IH?) for the flow you'd need, or am I off base on this? Otherwise, I May just plumb it in series with the heater hose.
 
The volvo factory diagram of how the system is originally plumbed. I think the side of the block was to source of coolant (left-most fitting). The beauty in this is that although the original application is on the passenger's side of the block, it will install on the IH four's driver's side by flipping over, and has relatively good flexibility for clocking either the adaptor or element to suit. Note that there is a boss in the midpoint of the adaptor; this can be tapped for a temp sending unit or even to pick off cooled oil to run up to my turbo. May need to hit the boneyard for another adaptor in case I screw up drilling/tapping. Cooler-2.jpg
 
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Okay, a real rainy day project. But I've been so busy at work lately that I'll take any opportunity for a mental health activity. As posted above, you'll see the diagram and pics of the volvo adaptor that holds the heat exchanger element. My challenge is to cast an adaptor - also out of aluminum - that will mate with the IH engine block's pad where oil comes out to go to some sort of oil filtration device and then return. A variety of adaptors have been configured for this pad, some used by scouts, some by the picalls, combines, or whatever. I am adding the first new configuration in what - 36 years?

The following posts are about how I go about designing and casting said adaptor. "designing" is a very loose term in my case.

First step is to obtain the normal oil filter adaptor-to-block gasket. I trace it on some 1/4" thick poplar from home depot, and cut it out with a little extra on each side as I'll need to file and sand "draft" into the finished piece so it will release from the sand mold.

Second step is to remove the existing adaptor from the engine and take a piece of paper and trace where the oil outlet (from oil pump) and return (to oil galleries) holes are relative to the mounting bolt holes. Note that the lower of the two holes is an oval. This is because the hole in the block exits at an angle. It's about 3/8" diameter inside the block and connects to the oil pump's outlet. The hole above it is circular and is where the oil goes into the gallery that runs alongside the block. I guess this is what makes the IH sv and I-4s "side oilers" like the old Ford big blocks.

Unfortunately, the oil outlet hole overlaps with the volvo return hole (concentric with the 3 1/4" circle of the volvo adaptor and dead center). Not to worry - there's a solution but it merely makes the adaptor I need to cast, about 1/2" thicker. And there is room under the left side motor mount for clearance. Explanation of the 3 1/4" circle is that on top of my IH adaptor will be a boss 1 1/2" thick disk and 3 1/4" in diameter. The volvo part will bolt to this part.

Now, on to the pictures.


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Next set of pictures. The area marked out in red will create a channel from the outlet hole to a location that can be drilled in the boss and will move oil into the volvo adaptor where it can flow into the heat exchanger and oil filter.

Because the hole in the center of the adaptor overlaps with the engine block output hole, I needed a fix. In another pic you'll see a blacked out area sort of crescent shaped. I plan on drilling an offset hole into the center hole of the adaptor where filtered and cooled oil returns through the center of a large banjo bolt. If the area of this blacked out area meets or exceeds the area of a 3/8" diameter circle, then flow should be adequate. Oil entering here will flow up the channel to the hole at the top, which is the oil gallery inlet hole.

The adaptor is going to be a sandwich. 1/4" plate with the channels, topped by a 1/4" plate. On top of this will be a 3 1/4" diameter disc either 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" thick. This will not be glued to the bottom plate because of draft considerations in making the mold, I'll have to do what is called a roll-over and register the two pieces separately but when poured, will (should???? :icon_eh:) result in a single piece. But that's for later on.

Edit: having a problem posting pics at this time. Will try later.
 
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In reviewing what I've done, I see that I cut out the blank a little too close to the size of the gasket. This will pose a problem when I surface the edges to create "draft", which is vital to removing a pattern from the casting sand. So I made another blank today, oversize, plus incorporated a few changes to it, now that I have a better idea of how to route returning oil through the banjo bolt and to the channel which cannot interfere with the inlet hole. The disc will be 1 1/4" thick, which will leave a 1/4" space beneath the bolt and will tap sideways into the channel. So it needs to be built up from a wooden craft disc I had on hand (3/4" thick) and 2 1/4" pieces of poplar. I'll glue this all together and then put it into the lathe and turn it down to around 3.300" diameter. Then turn some "draft" into it, I.e., making one side slightly larger in diameter than the other. These pieces should be workable by tomorrow. The short leg of the hockey puck shaped channel should be tappable from the top of the casting and might even be used as the source of oil for the turbo. Edit: mocking up the disc to the base shows me I May have a mechanically weak piece, so I am adding 1/4" to the base piece and reducing the disc's thickness by the same. Overall thickness of the adaptor through these sections will be the same. New pieces glued up and clamped. Hoping this week to finish the pattern, and if the stars are in alignment, maybe even cast it!

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Making patterns is nothing more than woodworking in many cases. All that's left here is to plug the holes, leaving dimples that should should show up on the casting and make centering the holes I need to drill much easier. And pinning the disc to the base so that it will easily separate when separating the cope from the drag. There should be sufficient draft in these pieces so that they will drop out of the sand once "rapped". With a little luck I will get a chance to pour this weekend.

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A setback today. Had the mold all rammed up and ready to go! Then just as I walked over to the furnace to retrieve my pot of molten aluminum, I saw it running out of the twere (hole in the furnace where I'm running in blast air) and onto the driveway, which is made of concrete. My "pot" had burned through and I lost 1 quart of aluminum. Fortunately it didn't leak out while I was pouring. Soooo...later this week I drive down the hill to buy a stainless steel "asparagus steamer" at bed, bath and beyond or whatever that place is called. The pot that burned out was a cheap champagne bottle chiller, the steamer makes a much better crucible. I think the mold will hold until Saturday. The little core prints on the backside of the base didn't make it but I can drill those channels and smooth them with a die grinder.

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Yeah right!!! Just like the season finales of our favorite tv shows, you couldn't resist a friggen cliff hangar...... :cryin: :incazzato: :lol: :icon_blaugh:

hope the heat didn't pop the concrete.
 
Robert kenney said:
yeah right!!! Just like the season finales of our favorite tv shows, you couldn't resist a friggen cliff hangar...... :cryin: :incazzato: :lol: :icon_blaugh:

hope the heat didn't pop the concrete.
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No, although that was a concern. I was so close, but Saturday morning the pour should happen. There was some crumbling of the edges when I withdrew the base from the drag, but those will only cause excess flashing that can be removed with a grinder. Overall, no reason not to proceed with the mold. I think it will last until Saturday, since it is made from the stickier petrobond, that uses 30 wt oil. They say a water/clay green sand will last only a day or two, probably because it is drying out.
 
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