Fuel float struggle

M

malstrom

New member
Hi friends



I have a 289 mustang sitting as a garage sculpture for the ;ast 12 years. Many times I have had the engine running fine. This vehicle almost show condition. I did find that 2 gallons of gas in the tank over 12 years produced a bad black gunk in the tank.. I replaced the tank flushed the lines changed all filters and got the fuel back to the carburetor. It would not kick over.... So I removed the carburetor which is a Holley 450 cfm 4 bbl new but sitting. I flushed berryman chem cleaner thru the carb without removing the bowls. And some uncleanlyness came out. Skip ahead.... Then I removed both needles to check them which seem fine,. But now I cant find or get the float levels to work. I follow you tube videos and the best I can get, is priming the carb with injected gas .. About 1/4cup and the engine runs' ,, about 6 seconds healthy strong and high rev. It just runs down on gas is my thought and dies. I then go back to removing the site plug. Test the fuel level, rock the car to expel excess and the use a hypo dermidermic bbq needle to remove gas in the bowl. T hen dial down the needle and repeat the start / engine run to fill the bowl six seconds again. Repeating process and finally seem to find a good point for the level . But I cant get the engine to turnover on it s own/ just cranks the battery.


I don't think the needle is blocked since ......well I don't know that do I .? I have had the engine running on its own in this nightmare for about 60 second at a high idle and horrible roughness. This is a new carb and it seem clean and responsive I dont think the dirt in the tank really made it thru to the clear filters to be a problem. And I dont want to rebuilt it .


What have I missed.. It it possible to remove the carb to the mechanic so he can set the levels?


Lawrence
 
Forcing a little berrymans through a long dormant and assembled carb isn't good enough to remove the deposits left behind by rotten fuel. This carb needs to be completely disassembled and all hard parts soaked in crc tyme cold parts cleaner, as the berryman's product isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, plus it smells like shit. After the recommended soak interval (don't overdue it) the parts must be flushed with water and dried out thoroughly. Using the list number on the front of the airhorn, select a Holley brand rebuild kit that corresponds to the list number and replace all the consumables. Make sure that the gasket holes in the kit match up with the gaskets you removed. The kit will contain instructions and a measuring device for setting the initial float level. The float levels can and should be fine tuned from there while the engine is idling on level ground via the removed sight plug and external float adjustment screws so that fuel is just barely visible at the bottom of the plug hole at idle.
 
Well I have removed the fuel line at the mechanical pump. Placed an hand pump on the line and pulled from the virgin new tank and clear new fuel. Well it just comes out at the first pint looking like a dark brown ale or stout beer. No grit particulates at all. After about a quart of pumping I'm now down to a miller beer color.

Is there some hot rodders trick to put a turpentine or cleaner in the line ? Is the color of the fuel really going to be a determining factor in getting the engine to run? Or is the carb that sensitive?
 
The problem isn't so much the fuel source in this case, although the dark color is concerning. Your carb is not air tight. There is moisture in the fuel. The fuel itself breaks down over time from air exposure. The fuel evaporates and gells up. This process turns the insides of the carb nasty. There are a lot of tiny orifices inside that can get easily plugged up and can only be cleaned adequately by a performing a complete strip down and soak as described above. It needs to be rebuilt. That's why the engine is running like crap. Really no short cut here.
 
Hi chief

a week later I use the hand pump to pump out another vodka bottle full of gas. The color is just about as bad as the first dark draw two weeks ago.

I cant believe that the 10 feet of line is that bad with a brand new tank ,, new sender and new gas.

Question : with an amber ale color gas... If I clean the carb perfectly clean. Wont I screw up the carb again with the current dark gas?

Thx

lawrence

I will try to start the engine again before I tear apart the carb.
 
Any contamination in the fuel can potentially contaminate the carb. This is why filtration is so important, especially with today's ethanol blended fuels.
 
I know what you're going thru. Trevor is right on about the carburetor. There many orifices in the fuel metering circuits, particularly the emulsion tube/s that can get gunked from bad fuel and the white death or aluminum corrosion when they sit for extended periods. I had a carburetor and fuel system go bad after only 5 years of just sitting.

A corroded fuel line is most probably the source of your darkened fuel. While fuel filtration will help a bunch, it usually won't keep out the rust flour(very very fine rust) that is so prevalent in older systems. As long as the carb can pass it, you're okay provided the chunks are kept out and you can periodically clean out the fuel bowls. When the fuel begins to smell stale, ditch it.

A good item for fuel is the stabil fuel conditioner, marine grade. I've had no problems for years with anything I put it in that gets to set or stored for months or even a year. Another thing I do for equipment I know will set, is put alcohol-free gas in them before they get parked as well as the stabil.

Maybe time to get that mustang on the road, that's what's it built for.
 
Well guys heres' my next thought. I followed the mistakes of the men in the enclosed article and decided to use a 6 gauge thhn multi strand copper electrical cable to fray its cable end and use as it a roto rooter snake. Put a variable speed drill on the end of the inserted cable.


Except I got two feet of it into the line no more. I will have to get a smaller cable. Then I thought why not fill the line with muriatic acid wait a week. Remove. Re fill with somehow y me jasco metal prep fluid for preparing or turning rust inert . Wait a week or less. Then draw more virgin fuel to see how clear the line will run.



I have the ingredients but I will wait for everyone's advise. Which is appreciated!

Lawrence

blocked fuel line | mg td tf 1500 | british-cars.net




:icon_cool:
 
Hi greg

thanks for the reference to the manufacturer. I was also hoping someone could answer another simple question. While I'm cleaning the lines.... I wonder if I swtiched the fuel lines at the mechanical carter fuel pump. Both inlets are threaded, its a saucer type design with one port on the top half of the saucer and the other on the bottom half. I have been searching the internet for specific holy grail proof but it's difficult. I can get the engine running on primed fuel and it stops.

I wonder if I put an I.v. Fuel drip bag right onto the carb would gravity feed the carb with enough preasure to keep the engine running while I remove the pump lines into clear bottles to see pump flow?

Lawrence
 
I don't think that would work so well. What would be the downside of switching lines at the pump on your hunch? I think you'd know right away if it was a difference maker.
 
Hi guys


I searched hard for diagrams online but found only the advise of the counter parts tech at the auto parts store to be of some help. It is the bottom half fuel line/port which is the inlet and the top line/port as the out put. I switched the lines back to that configuration, added a second in line clear fuel filter before the mechanical fuel pump and continued my struggle. I put the rubber bottom port fuel tank line into the steel line in the fire wall fender to reach the tank. I found that the when priming the carb with gas to run for six seconds the pump would not fill either clear filters. I thought maybe if I removed the tank line / mechanical pump filter to answer my own question



q1. I am thinking that the pump does not have the strength to push and pull thru two filters? Am I right in that thought? Nah?



I removed the pump filter, pulled the rubber line off the steel tank line and dropped the pump rubber hose into a plastic 2 gallon fuel can directly below the pump. And continuing the priming the carb game I was able to get fuel into the carb clear filter. It mounts vertically so the gas level would not travel up more than 30 percent of the plastic canister with paper filter. Again I wonder about the pump.



Q.2 engines can run with half filled filters right?



After priming and consuming fuel again for six seconds. Now my thinking goes back to the carb. Since it would not run continuously with out pouring fuel. I did also notice that fuel was leaking out the needle valve itself with it's badly abused paper gaskets.


Now what is the consensus?


Your wisdom is appreciated in my struggle



my carb


Holley 0-9776 Holley 450 cfm chokeless mechanical secondary carburetor


My pump



carter street super mechanical fuel pumps gm6905 - summitracing.com



Warmly, :smilewinkgrin:

laurence b.a.,m.a
 
Well friends I did not think it was my carb . But after crackin it open.

Photo ....
100_6880.jpg






Well as you can see the fuel in the carburetor has been turning to muck over the years. The plunger on the carb body would not longer vibrate. Its easy to see a bath tub ring on the lower half of the bowls. I have been soaking them in paint thinner but that does not seem strong enough. I don't have or see on ebay any berrymans chem dip or something more aggressive that's cheap. Can anybody reccommend a good cleaner? That's effective and cheap.
 
Hate to say I told you so but... If you go back to #2, my first post of this thread, I mentioned a crc product. Don't waste your time with berryman's. It ain't what it used to be. The whole carb must be broken down and soaked as if you were doing a complete rebuild. Only focusing on the bowl area is a waste of time. You need to go all the way like I suggested earlier.
 
I've never used tyme, couldn't find it locally. I don't care too much for berryman's, but when it's fresh it doesn't do a bad job; just might take a couple of dips with hot water rinses in between. The thing to look out for is the white rust, particularly in the small passages. Small copper wire such as a strand from 16ga. Stranded wire is helpful for probing the air bleeds. Be careful when unscrewing the jets and power valve, patience and penetrating oil helps a lot if they're stuck.
 
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Hi greg & trevor

thanks for the continued support!

I am continuing my struggle with my carburetor, I did find that the carburetor was in need of cleaning and rebuild as shown . I removed the two bowls from my Holley 4150 vacuum secondary carb and found a bath tub ring of dirt from 10 years of this cars storage. In past I have had the engine running faithfully. So I did not suppose that the gas would rot .. Which I guess it did as shown on my rebuild. I removed both bowls and metering block. I found that the main body holes seems to be functioning fine. So in my rebuild process I did not tear open the main body since this was a brand new carb with zero miles when the car went in storage.

To complete my rebuild I soaked the parts in paint thinner and better results in jasco furniture stripper. I did get a very clean result . From the rebuild kit I purchased, I replaced the metering plate power valve. The power valve was in bad shape with damage to the rubber diaphragm and with poor action when examined. So the power valve was replaced from the rebuilt kit. I replaced both the needle valves, accelerator diaphragm, all gaskets and the floats made of brass were reused. I am trying to adjust the needles again so I must start by starting the engine.

I find I can finally get the engine running continuously after these months. A step forward in my adventure, but when I get the engine started it will be running smoothly at two or three thousand rpms (by ear). After 30 seconds of running, without my input, the engine begins a runaway acceleration climb that requires I jump back in the car and shut off the key. When I remove the site plug I cannot get fuel out of the hole when rocking the car. The choke plate is set open and the accelerator pump has a strong amount of clearance so I know that the pump is not being held open when all the linkages are set to the relaxed position. The curb idle screw is set all the way down so I dont know where this high idle rpm is coming from.
Are there any tests or steps you want me to preform?
Anyone have any ideas?

Warmly
lawrence
 
Glad to hear you have made some forward progress lawrence. The one question that pops up for me right away is the part where you say the idle speed screw is all the way down. Now, to my feeble brained way of thinking, the word "down" equates to "screwed all the way in tight". Call me crazy, but we'd better get our terminology squared away here so we can be on the same page. Turning the screw clockwise...down to my way of thinking, will increase engine speed. Counter-clockwise, or "out" to my way of thinking will reduce engine speed. So if this is just a case of us saying the same thing two different ways, then we can move on to some other possibilities. First one that comes to mind is the throttle linkage is binding up and not allowing your throttle plates to close all the way. To find out, simply disconnect the linkage at the carb. It should idle nice and slowly. The only way you will be able to rev the engine is by blipping the throttle by hand. Now while you're doing this, also check to see that the carb linkage itself moves freely by hand with no other linkage parts connected. It just might be that your throttle plates are hanging up in the bore somehow, or there is some interference between them and the intake which will need to be remedied with a carb spacer.
 
Hi trevor and others

now I have a new problem. I get the car to run for about 10 seconds at high idle and roughly. The engine runs down and stops. This has repeatedly been a little common in my efforts. I remove the site plug on the carb. Shake / rock the car. No fuel spills from the bowl. I check the clear fuel line and again no fuel line in the clear filter.

So can anyone tell me if I switched the fuel lines on the pump? The grey hose goes to the engine the gloss black goes to the new tank, new sender, and 4 gallons of fuel.

I guess I could take off the lines..... Have someone crank the engine and thumb the ports?

Does any one know if there is a service that can rebuild a 200 dollar carter pump? Is it worth it?


The strange thing is I think this is correct.. I can put a beer bottle on top of the engine to catch the gas as I crank the engine.

Much thanks

lawrence

100_7200.jpg
 
If you're able to collect fuel in a container with the fuel line discoed at the carb inlet while bumping the starter, then the fuel lines at the pump aren't crossed. The diaphragm inside the pump will not allow fuel to be forced out through the inlet. Its a one-way street. I'm a little disappointed that you didn't follow up on any of the things I mentioned in my previous post. The long delay between responses isn't helping matters, but I understand if life is getting in the way.
 
Hi trever




yes sorry about the delays I only really get sundays to work on the car and life does take its time. I have started putting in mid week attempts now. I followed you suggestion yes I has able to get the disconnected fuel line to pump gas. I collected about half of a 1 pint 6 ounce large beer bottle of gas on a three second engine run that seems to die itself from fuel shortage? . I reconnected to the fuel line to the tank and I get about a quarter that amount 4 ounces . but I think the lines and tank are fine . brand new tank and sender and four gallons of gas in a 16 gallon tank . I did find that a fuel cap was causing drag when connected .



in my above runs I found that I was consuming gas from the primary bowl of course . I refill at the carb vent pipe to save the battery cranks .



I now have the fuel system at the bottom of the engine in a 2 gallon can .



I have no leaks anywhere but now that I think about it the reason I did the rebuild on the carb is that I could not get primary jets to squirt like I remember from my autolite 20 years ago when I was a kid . I did the rebuild right . opened only the bowls and cleaned .



the you tube shows my condition after the rebuild with fuel line to the tank with a unknown to me then a vented but too restrictive gas cap .

I could get it to run ,,,,,,

100 7205 - youtube[/url ]


after the you tube run


I put the fuel line in to a gas can at the bottom of the engine and get about half the clear filter filled . I get just the cranking problem no fire and a black hole for the primary bowl .


well I have only one general question . now after sitting a week . touching nothing ! I can't get the engine to catch . ignite and run . the battery cranks seems as if it going to catch and does not . I take off the site plug on the primary bowl and shake the car . no fuel spill . so I have used a funnel type syringe in both the site plug hole and air vent pipe on the primary bowl to insert gas . I pull gas from a 15 ounce clean glass jelly mason jar .


so I input about half the bottle or 9 ounces of gas and still no fuel on rocking the car . where is the gas going . there are no leaks, the manifold is dry . could the carb pass gas inside the manifold to the cylinder chambers and I have a flooded condition ? I do not smell gas on cranking .

I've lost my mind



thanks

lawrence
 
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