Engine Cpt Vacuum Users and Emissions

[scoutpappa]

I fully understand the dilemma folks are faced with when looking at all these ignition system upgrades, so much of the marketing hype is just that...hype!

I study this ignition technology continuously, but in the last 20 years, there is really nothing new and considered a killer app. And much of it is aimed at the total novice looking to obtain nitrous-type power increases on their four-door civic simply by screwin' with their computer!

When you study this ignition stuff in depth and then compare all the available systems/components on the market, you see that no one manufacturer does anything really any different than the other. And in many cases, they actually simply "re-brand" someone else's product as their own in a private label deal. Then add in all the bullshit that big boyz like jegs, summit, century, j.c. Whitney/speedway/tognotti etc. Toss around and it gets even more mindbending. In reality, they all do exactly the same thing in the same manner!

Sure, there are some subtle differences when you get into the very high end race-only goodies, some of which must be used in certain race class applications, but that stuff has no value at all for our street/trail use!

An example...for a typical GM engine app, there are more than 20 versions of the so-called delco "hei" distributor alone, all of which are marketed as the latest/greatest. But...they are still a dam hei distributor system which is about as old skool "tech" as electronic trigger ignition systems come, one step beyond breaker points in my opinion. Those are inductive systems and no where near the level of performance of any capacitive discharge system, though some are available with a halfass cd-converted internal module. And the msd distributor line for street use is basically an hei-based system (mag trigger since the beginning) that uses a Ford-design mag trigger since the delco mag triggers are shit!

You already have the finest distributors made exactly for an IH application that is available form any source. Mallory is the only manufacturer of a true IH-pattern aftermarket replacement distributor for these engines.

That distributor, combined with a stand-alone mallory 6852 (absolutely no use for a "rev limiter" version for an IH engine), and an appropriate matching coil as we've discussed so many times is the best you can achieve. And with that system, you will not use the ballast resistor.

Guess I'll get that one back to summit. The only other thing I can find anywhere on it is that it is supposed to be designed for a fuel injection application? If you look at the specs side by side with the 6852 they are the same (input/output) so I have no clue why it would be better for FI than a carb application. The only thing triggeering/interfacing with it is the existing coil. Not sure of that one either. The only thing I can get my head around with that set up is that the stock coil is part of the capacitence part of the system. Oh well. Wanted it for this last long weekend but will deal with it next weekend when I get the parts swapped.

 

[Michael Mayben]

guess I'll get that one back to summit. The only other thing I can find anywhere on it is that it is supposed to be designed for a fuel injection application? If you look at the specs side by side with the 6852 they are the same (input/output) so I have no clue why it would be better for FI than a carb application. The only thing triggering/interfacing with it is the existing coil. Not sure of that one either. The only thing I can get my head around with that set up is that the stock coil is part of the capacitence part of the system. Oh well. Wanted it for this last long weekend but will deal with it next weekend when I get the parts swapped.

The "reason" for the reference to "fuel injection"...(and again, this is marketing bullshit!!!) is...any vehicle built/sold in north america since 1996 (1995 in some markets such as the early launch of obdii in kalifornikate) is computer-controlled and incorporates fuel injection not a carburetor. Those have the emissions systems locked down to an even greater extent than what was done between say 1981 and 1994! But none of those vehicles had any more than a marginal ignition system, just enough to meet the "emissions warranty" imposed by the feds.

All that locked down emissions shit took the aftermarket manufacturers out of the game as far as a future market for their products, and for the most part, their stuff is "legal for off-highway use only".

So...they have come up with "add-on" applications for some of their products that will mount to the pooter-control shit and then start blowing smoke about "enhanced" performance.

Folks that live and die by the summit catalog while doing their business are their prime potential customers, when in reality, little or none of the stuff aimed at that market will do anything except make dinero change pockets. But then, that is the way the "car bizznizz" has always been, the forerunners of this stuff were the traveling medicine shows and the "horse traders"!

So...as far as the "ez" line of ignition products, because the installation does not alter the oem wiring, or the oem operation/certification, no exemption has to be filed for and thus the stuff is "legal" in most cases.

And that my friend is about as smoke and mirrors as it comes in this aftermarket parts bizz...they only blow the smoke to make ya want it, but tell you nothing that is rooted in fact and performance data that shows "improvement". And because the typical selling price is less, that makes it seem like a real value!

 

[scoutpappa]

the "reason" for the reference to "fuel injection"...(and again, this is marketing bullshit!!!) is...any vehicle built/sold in north america since 1996 (1995 in some markets such as the early launch of obdii in kalifornikate) is computer-controlled and incorporates fuel injection not a carburetor. Those have the emissions systems locked down to an even greater extent than what was done between say 1981 and 1994! But none of those vehicles had any more than a marginal ignition system, just enough to meet the "emissions warranty" imposed by the feds.

All that locked down emissions shit took the aftermarket manufacturers out of the game as far as a future market for their products, and for the most part, their stuff is "legal for off-highway use only".

So...they have come up with "add-on" applications for some of their products that will mount to the pooter-control shit and then start blowing smoke about "enhanced" performance.

Folks that live and die by the summit catalog while doing their business are their prime potential customers, when in reality, little or none of the stuff aimed at that market will do anything except make dinero change pockets. But then, that is the way the "car bizznizz" has always been, the forerunners of this stuff were the traveling medicine shows and the "horse traders"!

So...as far as the "ez" line of ignition products, because the installation does not alter the oem wiring, or the oem operation/certification, no exemption has to be filed for and thus the stuff is "legal" in most cases.

And that my friend is about as smoke and mirrors as it comes in this aftermarket parts bizz...they only blow the smoke to make ya want it, but tell you nothing that is rooted in fact and performance data that shows "improvement". And because the typical selling price is less, that makes it seem like a real value!

Alright set up the return and have a 6852 and promaster e-coil coming as a swap out. At least they were decent about the whole thing. They even did a price match for the difference so same money. Now I should have the correct parts to finish my ignition system. I think.

 

[Dealbreaker74]

Mike/Jeff-
you guys might want to sticky this thread and lump it into the ignition info database. Some good stuff here for the uninformed; it de-mystifies all the hype and lays out what works and explains why.

 

[scoutpappa]

I have done as much research as possible with what I can find online. The 6852 comes with a diode in case of residual voltage. Have you had to incorporate the diode in the start circuit? Also you mentioned that you did not like the idea of directly wiring to the battery but this box also has a circuit directly wired to the battery. Do you recommend a different tie in point? And last but not least on the b+ start circuit it states that you leave the ballast resistor in line if already installed. Can I get rid of it? The statement is very ambiguous. Other than that I use the white wire for the "signal". Spare the two wire harness, and now I will have the option to tie in a tac. Do you have a recommendation for a tac manufacturer?

 

[scoutpappa]

Mike/Jeff-
you guys might want to sticky this thread and lump it into the ignition info database. Some good stuff here for the uninformed; it de-mystifies all the hype and lays out what works and explains why.

It definately helps. On top of all the options Mike exemplified above, there are a considerable number of "6" boxes to choose from and really no help from the parts houses.

 

[Michael Mayben]

I have done as much research as possible with what I can find online. The 6852 comes with a diode in case of residual voltage. Have you had to incorporate the diode in the start circuit? Also you mentioned that you did not like the idea of directly wiring to the battery but this box also has a circuit directly wired to the battery. Do you recommend a different tie in point? And last but not least on the b+ start circuit it states that you leave the ballast resistor in line if already installed. Can I get rid of it? The statement is very ambiguous. Other than that I use the white wire for the "signal". Spare the two wire harness, and now I will have the option to tie in a tac. Do you have a recommendation for a tac manufacturer?

I've never used the blocking "diode" when performing/installing all these cd ignition performance upgrades I do on IH vehicles. Same for a tach filter even when used with the el cheepo aftermarket tachometers.

For a tach, I do the same...the least expensive unit that fits the space I have available, no need for more than a 6,000 rpm scale, "shift light", rev limiters, all that bullshit. Big numbers are important to old eyes. Do not use the "tach" signal wire for any cd box when connecting in an el cheepo/chinee tachometer, deadhead that connector. Instead, connect the tach directly to the coil per the tach instructions and make sure you set the tach for the correct number of cylinders so it can count. In some of the pictures of my personal stuff, you do not see the tach connection to the coil, that is because I hide it in the harness, but that is just a cleaner way of making the connections when I tidy up the wiring using weatherpaks.

I know what all the suppliers of these type products "recommend" in their instructions as far as power feeds. That is because they know they are dealing with folks who don't have a clue and can't even discern positive from negative at the battery!

The only wiring that should be connected directly to a battery are the high current cables (positive and negative). The battery terminals are the worst place to connect any non-starting-related loads. No other point in the electrical system is so badly abused as the battery terminals/cable connections. Either from acid attack, jumper cable jaws, incorrect wrenching, and most damaging, oxidation of the posts/terminals etc. Delco-type side terminal battery setups are just as bad for the same reasons.

For current distribution of non-oem loads, on this stuff we should use an auxiliary load center (fuse panel) that has adequate reserve ampacity for the anticipated total load to be connected. That is the "electrically-correct" way to do this.

I use very inexpensive 100amp/six port auxiliary panels such as shown in the pic, that one is a cooper/bussman item and sells for under $15. I normally feed that panel with an eight gauge cable directly from the bat terminal on the starter, and on occasion I'll protect the panel with either a 50 amp or 80 amp maxifuse, depending upon anticipated total load throughput across the fuse block.

The install in this pic was a very early setup on this particular truck, it's since been changed considerably. The auxiliary fuse panel is connected directly to the battery positive cable here witha one gauge cable, same as the other battery cables (oem battery cables on all this junk is four gauge).

The msd box wiring is identical to the mallory wiring! The positive and negative "power leads" are connected to the battery feed terminal on the panel with the negative wire run going to a direct ground point on the inner fender. This vehicle has had the entire ground system "bonded" with one gauge cable, battery to engine, engine to frame, frame to body panels.

The power lead for the msd (or mallory) box should not include any sort of fuse or circuit protection, that is handled inside the box and not consumer serviceable. The fuses shown here are deadheads. Nothing is connected, they are place holders for the future. The two active feeds are for an electric brake controller and for the charging line to the trailer connector used to charge the trailer batteries. You never use a fuse for protection of those two circuits, a circuit breaker is always used instead, that is a major safety issue when using any vehicles in towing duty.

This rig will soon receive a battery charging isolator for charging the multiple auxiliary batteries on the trailer, my other tow rig is already set up for that along with dual batteries so that when dry camped I can pull from three batteries and not deplete the vehicle crank battery.

We've tried to address most all these issues in the ongoing thread located here, along with all kinds of variations:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/644-ignition-system-performance-upgrades.html

But your feedback tells me that yawl think we need a "step-by-step" analysis and how-to of a typical performance ignition setup? We can do that, but it won't be generic for the most part, we'll have to incorporate "brands", but the use of any "six series" cd box is generic, the wiring and setup is the same for all. It is the "ez" versions that are different, and that is because those are not used in performance upgrades on the kinds of vehicles we deal with around here as "old skool".

 

[scoutpappa]

I've never used the blocking "diode" when performing/installing all these cd ignition performance upgrades I do on IH vehicles. Same for a tach filter even when used with the el cheepo aftermarket tachometers.

For a tach, I do the same...the least expensive unit that fits the space I have available, no need for more than a 6,000 rpm scale, "shift light", rev limiters, all that bullshit. Big numbers are important to old eyes. Do not use the "tach" signal wire for any cd box when connecting in an el cheepo/chinee tachometer, deadhead that connector. Instead, connect the tach directly to the coil per the tach instructions and make sure you set the tach for the correct number of cylinders so it can count. In some of the pictures of my personal stuff, you do not see the tach connection to the coil, that is because I hide it in the harness, but that is just a cleaner way of making the connections when I tidy up the wiring using weatherpaks.

I know what all the suppliers of these type products "recommend" in their instructions as far as power feeds. That is because they know they are dealing with folks who don't have a clue and can't even discern positive from negative at the battery!

The only wiring that should be connected directly to a battery are the high current cables (positive and negative). The battery terminals are the worst place to connect any non-starting-related loads. No other point in the electrical system is so badly abused as the battery terminals/cable connections. Either from acid attack, jumper cable jaws, incorrect wrenching, and most damaging, oxidation of the posts/terminals etc. Delco-type side terminal battery setups are just as bad for the same reasons.

For current distribution of non-oem loads, on this stuff we should use an auxiliary load center (fuse panel) that has adequate reserve ampacity for the anticipated total load to be connected. That is the "electrically-correct" way to do this.

I use very inexpensive 100amp/six port auxiliary panels such as shown in the pic, that one is a cooper/bussman item and sells for under $15. I normally feed that panel with an eight gauge cable directly from the bat terminal on the starter, and on occasion I'll protect the panel with either a 50 amp or 80 amp maxifuse, depending upon anticipated total load throughput across the fuse block.

The install in this pic was a very early setup on this particular truck, it's since been changed considerably. The auxiliary fuse panel is connected directly to the battery positive cable here witha one gauge cable, same as the other battery cables (oem battery cables on all this junk is four gauge).

The msd box wiring is identical to the mallory wiring! The positive and negative "power leads" are connected to the battery feed terminal on the panel with the negative wire run going to a direct ground point on the inner fender. This vehicle has had the entire ground system "bonded" with one gauge cable, battery to engine, engine to frame, frame to body panels.

The power lead for the msd (or mallory) box should not include any sort of fuse or circuit protection, that is handled inside the box and not consumer serviceable. The fuses shown here are deadheads. Nothing is connected, they are place holders for the future. The two active feeds are for an electric brake controller and for the charging line to the trailer connector used to charge the trailer batteries. You never use a fuse for protection of those two circuits, a circuit breaker is always used instead, that is a major safety issue when using any vehicles in towing duty.

This rig will soon receive a battery charging isolator for charging the multiple auxiliary batteries on the trailer, my other tow rig is already set up for that along with dual batteries so that when dry camped I can pull from three batteries and not deplete the vehicle crank battery.

We've tried to address most all these issues in the ongoing thread located here, along with all kinds of variations:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/644-ignition-system-performance-upgrades.html

But your feedback tells me that yawl think we need a "step-by-step" analysis and how-to of a typical performance ignition setup? We can do that, but it won't be generic for the most part, we'll have to incorporate "brands", but the use of any "six series" cd box is generic, the wiring and setup is the same for all. It is the "ez" versions that are different, and that is because those are not used in performance upgrades on the kinds of vehicles we deal with around here as "old skool".

I didn't mean to insinuate that the other threads weren't extremely helpful. This has just helped enormously with my specific circumstances. Now I want to ask some technical questions regarding an auxillary circuit. Currently I have a "new" reman stock alternator. Load capacity total output 63a. With this in mind, I have only one source, and although my current is variable to an extent I am still limited by the overall current output of the system. So if I protect to the total system output I am looking at 78.75a at protection values that I utilize in industrial design (125%). What is the total running load of a stock Scout electrical system? My concerns are that even if I break out another load center I still have the possibility/capability to overload the only true power circuit in the vehicle. Outside of jumping out of the protection of the stock wiring, it appears that you have a higher output alternator and a dual battery setup with some type of dc ats. If the information I have is correct than I can look at a max draw of 3a at 5k rpm's for the cd box. Is your intent to have a second stand alone circuit on it's own protection? I am only asking this because I am assuming that the stock electrical system is protected to at least 100% of the total expected load and theoretically a 3a at max increase should be within the parameters of the original design. I am only thinking out loud really. I intend to install a second load bank for ease and for additional loads in the future but overall circuit protection is only at the loadbank and as stated above with no current you can still get overvoltage scenarios at any time. Do you find that adding the auxillary circuits hastens the demise of the voltage regulator or has any other detrimental effects on the electrical system? Newer cars utilize relays to handle high draw users and of course utilze relay logic to have multiple instances from one control "source". Have you or do you install relays in the vehicles you rewire to handle lighting duties etc.? And Mike most of this is discussion. I'm still not smart enough to fix or figure out what is wrong with something as "simple" as a coil heating element that opens a flap in a set amount of time based off of its material type/length/spring rate. That I will work out tomorrow on my day off. Then next weekend I will (hopefully) have a working choke and then introduce the cd box off of the aux loadbank as you have pictured above. One final thought, do you purchase the load centers at local parts dealer? When you say cooper/bussman I think of having to order such an animal

 

[scoutpappa]

I also left the battery out of this equation thinking of this syetem as "running" with the battery as a user initially. I didn't factor any potential when thinking this through my head. I might have to sit down and do this on paper.

 

[Michael Mayben]

You're overthinking this man! This ain't no nook plant but when that oem bulkhead connector goes up in smoke you will think it's a nookleeur disaster!

There are many shortcomings in most especially the Scout II electrical system, but really no more than any manufactured vehicle that was built by beancounters. The Scout II was a "clean but cheep" sheet of paper kinda design. When you compare the electrical system on those, with the systems that ihc manufactured for their real trucks which was the bread and butter of their business, it's hard to believe that they ever built any electrical shit like used on the Scout II!

So...once you start "helping" correct the design deficiencies on this old junk, it just doesn't end. That is why I shy away from "fixin" this old electrical shit and simply start from scratch with simplification and overampacity in component selection and wire runs.

I refuse to use relays for any accessory load on anything I do. The only relay I add is the starter relay and that is more of a convenience item than anything else. I hate relays...I spent years working in the auto manufacturing industry (all japanese stuff) as a field engineer and the asian shit is nothing but a mass of relays and light duty switching/wiring. That is a major reason why that "modern shit" is so expensive to service when it's "customer pay", with the pooter sensors, the relays, the multiple load centers, the sub-processors, and now multi-plexing going on, that stuff is where all the service work in a dealership lies today. And it never ends with multiple failures and multiple repair attempts because "technicians" today can't fix shit.

Typical service ticket at the dealership for that Ford ya just unloaded for a simple "battery won't stay charged" is over $1100 and you will return it at least three times before it's fixed right!

The reason for the multiple battery setups on this stuff I do is for trailer towing with trailers that have at least one and sometimes three large deep cycle batteries. Those batteries must be charged when dragging down the road!

The secondary use is for winching, where the auxiliary battery (or winch battery) is isolated from the entire vehicle system except when the engine is running to charge the battery. That totally prevents any additional load on the vehicle electrical system except for the alternator output which ramps up and down based upon battery(s) state of charge.

I'm no longer into this boombox/high end sound system schnizz (that is exactly why I have an 80% hearing loss!), but those amplifier systems the ricerocket/hot wheels/pocket car kidz run need huge battery capacity, with huge capacitors to handle peak current demands, that is why the multiple battery technology bizznizz has really taken on a life of it's own in the last several years.

My focus is to not end up with a dead engine crank battery when parked 50 miles out into the desert in a whiteout blizzard and 100 miles from the nearest 120vdc outlet ( I do carry a 1850w generator for a backup to the backup) and I've dry-camped for three days without cranking the engine. With an isolated system, the crank battery cannot be discharged except by parasitic load.

I rarely install any alternator that has a greater potential output that the oem 61>63 amp unit. I see no need for that unless I was running many 12vdc accessories such as in a "portable" shop trailer. I have no need for the multiple high current draw offroad lights in my world and most of that stuff ya see rolling down the road is all show and no go (except in texas where we used them lights for jacklightin' rabbits and coyotes at 2ayem).

If one were building an "expedition" vehicle, then that is special purpose-built stuff and the sky is the limit:

ecoroamer | traveling the world, one dirt road at a time.

The auxiliary power distribution stuff is simply for convenience and to eliminate running wires all over the place inna haphazard fashion. By doing this no additional load is placed on the oem vehicle electrical system/wire runs/switches, the additional loads do not pull through the oem ammeter circuit at all. Therefore, there is no additional load on the shitball oem bulkhead connectors or the alternator/battery charging wire runs.

The "factory" protection as implemented on the Scout II varies tremendously from the beginning to the end of production! You can see the "fusible link" issue raise it's head around here on a weekly basis. But in the late 60's through the 80's, the fusible link was current technology for system protection. However, there was no master protection for the entire system. And worse, after 35 years of bein' po'd, this stuff has every kinda workaround known to man regarding "fixing" electrical issues. Many of the systems I see have had the fusible link(s) totally bypassed or eliminated simply because they fried. So instead of repairing the root cause, let's just eliminate the protection??? Then we can whine when the whole pos goes down in flames in the parking lot!

Your sii, right now, should have a 14 gauge fusible link for system protection of the feed to the fuse panel and the interior electrical loads. That is roughly equivalent to a 50amp fuse, but a fusible link will handle about a 20% overload intermittently before going into hard failure.

Modern vehicles also have various forms of fusible links (mostly the plug-in type). So they have protection on top of protection. Wanna deal witha bitch? Screw around with the multiple load centers, and "fuse panels" incorporated on Ford superduty trucks from the mid-90's on. I deal with those constantly since all my buddies drive that shit, they loose electrics/loads constantly on those rigs for no reason at all. And the Ford dealer will kill you in diagnostic charges and still never actually "fix" anything. The relay array alone is mindboggling. I consider the Ford superduty diesel to be the ultimate throwaway vehicle. Throwaway front axle/steering/brake components, throwaway driveshafts, throwaway fuel systems, it never ends.

The cooper/bussman-type fuse panels are hanging on the wall even at autozoo locally. And every other auto parts carries 'em on the wall also usually where all the fuses and light bulbs are:

cooper bussmann ® - blade fuses and accessories

For the much higher quality stuff I use the qwikwire stuff such as this right here from ihon:

kwik wire ~ add on fuse blocks

Or the marine-type product such as available from blue sea:

fuse blocks & fuses - blue sea systems

None of this additional load center stuff (or loads) really impacts the alternator, a delcotron 10si is a real work horse with a fairly decent duty cycle if it'sa reman of high quality parts, most especially not a chinee internal voltage regulator. I use only reman alternators done by a local quality rebuilder. I do own two autozoo "lifetime warranty" units that are kept in the truck box in each rig in case of emergency when on the road. I do that because they are swappable nationwide wherever we May be. These are set up with machined pulleys already and have been "clocked" appropriately for each vehicle also.

 

[scoutpappa]

Is it possible to install the high idle circuit spring backwards? I am testing the heating element for the second time and it appears to be functioning correctly. I believe I had a bad ground so rewired to a better location. I am working on the linkage becasue it does stick.the little red piece that hits the set screw is what keeps binding now. I adjusted the metal linkage to the flap and have that working freely so we are good there. I am just not sure how the high idle circuit works in conjunction with the actual choke flap.

 

[scoutpappa]

Second time around the spring contracts as expected. It appears that the cam for the high idle circuit on the choke side is giving me fits. On the Holley instructions that piece appears metal but on my kit I have a plastic cam. The spring appears correct on the choke cap side and without the high idle screw contacting the red cam the linkage operates freely. Once the cap cools off again I am going to hook up the new ground and check the flap linkage movement from the battery. My 12vdc wire checks out with about 14vdc when running. Still high to me but I am in autorange on the 787 so I May be getting a little fluxuation. On a good note the element appears to be fine it is just linkage issues now. Specifically the little red cam and the high idle circuit

 

[Michael Mayben]

Yes, it is possible to install the fast idle lever and spring incorrectly.

The electric choke kit must be installed on the carb, those mixers are not available with an electric choke system out of the box.

Part of the choke conversion consists of removing all components associated with the manual choke. Then a few of the removed parts are combined with electric choke parts in the kit and then re-installed on the carb. Then once the carb is mounted and the electrical hookup done, the new fast idle lever/screw must be adjusted for each engine combination. With the red fast idle cam in the highest cam position, the fast idle speed must be set using that difficult-to-access screw, fast idle speed should be at least 1400rpm and I prefer 1800rpm.

Here's a link to the installation instructions for the electric choke system:

http://www.Holley.com/data/products/technical/199r7972-4.pdf

And attached here is a pic of the completed fast idle lever and spring combo, this pic was sent to me by somebody years ago so I could verify that it was assembled correctly...it is!

Many folks who install this electric choke kit on these carbs can't discern the difference in the fast idle lever setup between the two choke systems. So they simply don't make the correct parts install. But I promise, without the correct parts installed, the electric choke/fast idle will not operate.

 

[scoutpappa]

And here is the dumas alert. There is a specific way to set the fast idle cam. Damnit damnit damnit

 

[scoutpappa]

yes, it is possible to install the fast idle lever and spring incorrectly.

The electric choke kit must be installed on the carb, those mixers are not available with an electric choke system out of the box.

Part of the choke conversion consists of removing all components associated with the manual choke. Then a few of the removed parts are combined with electric choke parts in the kit and then re-installed on the carb. Then once the carb is mounted and the electrical hookup done, the new fast idle lever/screw must be adjusted for each engine combination. With the red fast idle cam in the highest cam position, the fast idle speed must be set using that difficult-to-access screw, fast idle speed should be at least 1400rpm and I prefer 1800rpm.

Here's a link to the installation instructions for the electric choke system:

http://www.Holley.com/data/products/technical/199r7972-4.pdf

And attached here is a pic of the completed fast idle lever and spring combo, this pic was sent to me by somebody years ago so I could verify that it was assembled correctly...it is!

Many folks who install this electric choke kit on these carbs can't discern the difference in the fast idle lever setup between the two choke systems. So they simply don't make the correct parts install. But I promise, without the correct parts installed, the electric choke/fast idle will not operate.

Yup. That is the one I am looking at. Now I just have to follow the instructions. I'm an idiot. It's a mechanical circuit and I have to set it to "at rest". Nothing at all about setting the fast idle speed when running

 

[Michael Mayben]

second time around the spring contracts as expected. It appears that the cam for the high idle circuit on the choke side is giving me fits. On the Holley instructions that piece appears metal but on my kit I have a plastic cam. The spring appears correct on the choke cap side and without the high idle screw contacting the red cam the linkage operates freely. Once the cap cools off again I am going to hook up the new ground and check the flap linkage movement from the battery. My 12vdc wire checks out with about 14vdc when running. Still high to me but I am in autorange on the 787 so I May be getting a little fluxuation. On a good note the element appears to be fine it is just linkage issues now. Specifically the little red cam and the high idle circuit

The operational "voltage" of any passenger vehicle built after the changeover to nominal "12vdc" systems beginning in the mid-50's is a common misconception. Terminal voltage (open circuit) on a typical lead/acid storage battery is 12.6vdc at 70f when fully charged. Once the engine is cranked and the alternator output has stabilized (minimum 700rpm+/-), then the alternator output will be between 14.2 and 14.8vdc and is then slowly lowered by the voltage regulator as the battery is recharged back to capacity. Minimum battery voltage after about 20 minutes of "recharge" should be a nominal 13.2vdc when the engine is running/alternator is charging.

So...in essence these automotive systems are not "12 volt", but in actuality closer to 14 volt! That is why ohm's law doesn't give correct calculations when using "12" as the base voltage for calcs.

Our generic point for a charging system that is "too high" is a nominal 14.8vdc. Most any of the loads found on a motor vehicle will operate just fine at up to 18vdc except the computer-based shit on modern efi vehicles. More than 18vdc will see light bulbs going away, batteries cooking all the liquid out and venting, and the hvac blower motor/speed resistors (if equipped with a resistor, a Scout II is not so equipped) taking a dump.

Motor vehicles are dynamic animals, their operational parameters are constantly varying going down the road, along with a huge variance in operating ambient temps. So the only "buffer" they have between the varying alternator/regulator output and the electrical loads is the battery which acts not only as a storage unit for electrons, but also as a shock absorber!

The alternator/regulator systems typically used on high end emergency vehicles, over-the-road tractors, etc. Are somewhat more sophisticated as far as voltage regulation due to the inclusion of many sophisticated electronic devices...but the cost of those products is also astronomical compared to the stuff we use on this old iron. For more information regarding battery isolation, multiple battery setups, and high-end electrical energy sources for dynamic vehicles, study the poop found here:

sure power industries

 

[scoutpappa]

Almost there I think. I had pulled 12vdc from cir #95a which is part of the emissions circuit to a solenoid. For whatever reason even though I am reading voltage I can't heat the element. A hot lead straight to the battery actuates the element and throttle plate so I have to find a new switched source. Also as I understand the fast idle part of this choke system.

Element goes cold = choke plate almost closed
turn key on = have voltage = element heats
throttle to the floor = high speed cam sets on screw
time moves forward = spring element opens plate
as plate opens engine speed goes down
when choke plate is completely open = touch gas realease cam

so in all actuality the cam is just a set point and it doesn't actually rotate down with the choke plate it just holds the butterflies slightly more open than dead idle until you touch the throttle again and releases the set screw.

So the Rich to normal fuel ratio is actually what is controlling the engine speed in this operation.

Is this the correct assumption of the process?

Cause if not I don't see how that little cam will ratchet down with the choke plate opening.

 

[Michael Mayben]

For a switched b+ feed for the choke positive terminal, open that loom that goes down the top of the passenger side of the intake manifold. You will hopefully see one (maybe two) black insulated wires with either a "fork" connector or a slide connector. These are hidden. Since that rig was originally a California-spec emissions, that wire(s) will most likely be just laying there and not inside the loom. One of those wires is going to be switched b+ and is nearly a "factory" plug-in to that choke cap! Those circuits are usually not shown in the schematics, just another ihc quirk.

When the choke element is cold, and the choke plate is closed, then the red plastic fast idle cam is raised to place it in the highest fast idle position. As the choke gradually heats...the choke plate link rod allows the red cam to slowly "drop" which steps the fast idle speed down in increments. The tip end of that red nylon cam is weighted with a steel insert cast in.

In order to allow the choke to "set" and the fast idle to "drop" (as it warms), you have to "tap" the throttle pedal, otherwise the return spring tension is too tight to allow the stuff to move on it's own by gravity.

Wire run 95 is part of the "decel" system which is emissions-related and controlled by the oem gold box ignition amplifier along with a speed sensor in the speedo cable, connect nothing into any part of that system. All that stuff should have been disabled or dead-headed by now.

 

[scoutpappa]

for a switched b+ feed for the choke positive terminal, open that loom that goes down the top of the passenger side of the intake manifold. You will hopefully see one (maybe two) black insulated wires with either a "fork" connector or a slide connector. These are hidden. Since that rig was originally a California-spec emissions, that wire(s) will most likely be just laying there and not inside the loom. One of those wires is going to be switched b+ and is nearly a "factory" plug-in to that choke cap! Those circuits are usually not shown in the schematics, just another ihc quirk.

When the choke element is cold, and the choke plate is closed, then the red plastic fast idle cam is raised to place it in the highest fast idle position. As the choke gradually heats...the choke plate link rod allows the red cam to slowly "drop" which steps the fast idle speed down in increments. The tip end of that red nylon cam is weighted with a steel insert cast in.

In order to allow the choke to "set" and the fast idle to "drop" (as it warms), you have to "tap" the throttle pedal, otherwise the return spring tension is too tight to allow the stuff to move on it's own by gravity.

Wire run 95 is part of the "decel" system which is emissions-related and controlled by the oem gold box ignition amplifier along with a speed sensor in the speedo cable, connect nothing into any part of that system. All that stuff should have been disabled or dead-headed by now.

Close then. I'll tear in and find another swithced source. Then I'll school my wife on the gentle taps on the accelerator so that she can throttle the engine down. If not it'll be wide ass open 1600 rpms until completely through the sequence. Now one last question she'll have to do this every time she gets in so on warm starts I'm a little confused as to the benefit. It appears that the choke plate closes relatively quickly when no power is applied. How does having the air choked off and having what I would think to be a full Rich enviornment actually fall into a lower emissions scenario?

 

[Michael Mayben]

The electric choke system is not an "emissions" deal. It is a painless/troublefree (when adjusted correctly) carburetor circuit.

These aftermarket carbs when rigged with the electric choke make the starting drill (hot or cold) a no-brainer once the sequence is learned. Yawl are too young to remember carbureted vehicles when each model had a starting drill explained in the owner's manual. Hell, in texas...that was part of the driver's education curriculum (I taught driver's ed for several years), how to cold start a car and how to change a flat tire! But by the time I started teaching we had electric starters and did not have to learn how to hand crank.

The electric choke operation is an engineered, timed curve. Those do not meet any emissions criteria for any vehicle in any year model, these are completely for aftermarket conversions on performance applications. And even if an engine is "hot", it still benefits from having a choke partially actuated for restart. I deal with folks all the time that say..."it's hot here, I don't need a choke"...I tell 'em bullshit, every engine needs a choke if it's carbureted. Ambient air or engine temperature have nothing to do with starting an engine or providing a proper air/fuel ratio as the engine goes through warm-up. And an electronic fuel injected engine is no different, the a/f ratio is constantly being tweeked by the computer based upon sensor inputs from many sources as the engine goes from cold to normal operating temp,...thousands of times per minute.

Mechanical fuel injection with no dam computer...same thing based upon temperatures, etc. As throttle air bypass is temperature controlled, that acts like a "controlled" air leak on those systems. It works continuously, hot or cold engine temp/ambient air temp.