Engine Cpt Vacuum Users and Emissions

[scoutpappa]

For today. Got the new old cargo light in and wired. Just need to find some door pin switches and see if I can get the light switch cleaned up. Intermittant with making ground. So on to the really important problem.

I tried the choke again. Never opened up so I'm thinking soemthing is up. Need to figure that one out. Need some advice.

Also the carb has drifted maybe. I let it warm up with letting the choke work. So what I noticed and what my wife had commented is the idle went down. I checked it with the meter and it went down to about 630 at idle at warm. This is after I had to turn the choke "off". So what I am thinkig is maybe a vacuum leak. But after I set it again it stayed at 750 at idle at warm. Even with the idle so far down the truck runs fine and even in gear it idles well at such a low idle speed. Any thoughts?

 

[Michael Mayben]

Sorry you are having problems with the electric choke action, the whole idea behind those units is that once they are set for each engine app, they are totally troublefree and don't have to be diddled with.

But...the choke must be working properly and pull completely "off" once the spring heats and is kept continuously heated before the carb can be final adjusted!

At that point the idle mixture screws are then adjusted for best idle quality and highest manifold vacuum. And at the same time, the curb idle speed (throttle stop) screw is adjusted to give 700>725rpm in park/neutral.

With the choke fully closed (minimum of three hours non-run time), when you "set" the choke by stabbing the throttle pedal once, then the fast idle cam is engaged by the choke lever and it should fast idle at somewhere between 1400 and 1600rpm. The original carb on that engine when properly adjusted had a fast idle speed setting of 2200rpm...that is an emissions requirement.

As the choke heats, you see four steps on that nylon fast idle cam, that represents a nominal 1600, 1200, 900, 800rpm, and then drops out of the picture completely. That entire sequence occurs in under four minutes from the time the ignition switch is turned on, whether the engine is started or not.

I normally set the black plastic choke cap to dead middle on the tick marks initially. Then after the carb is final adjusted and the vehicle driven, it gets parked and the choke allowed to cool. Then I observe the starting "action" for a dead cold engine. Sometimes the choke cap needs to be moved "slightly", most of the time not, each vehicle is different.

The "average" tick Mark I find for the choke on most engines is two ticks from the center towards the "Rich" designation and snug the screws.

Once a carb is set for optimum performance, they don't "drift" in mixture calibration unless there is a vacuum leak or some sort of abnormal temperature event regarding the engine itself. And many times temperature and vacuum leak go hand-in-hand due to expansion/contraction of various components.

 

[scoutpappa]

sorry you are having problems with the electric choke action, the whole idea behind those units is that once they are set for each engine app, they are totally troublefree and don't have to be diddled with.

But...the choke must be working properly and pull completely "off" once the spring heats and is kept continuously heated before the carb can be final adjusted!

At that point the idle mixture screws are then adjusted for best idle quality and highest manifold vacuum. And at the same time, the curb idle speed (throttle stop) screw is adjusted to give 700>725rpm in park/neutral.

With the choke fully closed (minimum of three hours non-run time), when you "set" the choke by stabbing the throttle pedal once, then the fast idle cam is engaged by the choke lever and it should fast idle at somewhere between 1400 and 1600rpm. The original carb on that engine when properly adjusted had a fast idle speed setting of 2200rpm...that is an emissions requirement.

As the choke heats, you see four steps on that nylon fast idle cam, that represents a nominal 1600, 1200, 900, 800rpm, and then drops out of the picture completely. That entire sequence occurs in under four minutes from the time the ignition switch is turned on, whether the engine is started or not.

I normally set the black plastic choke cap to dead middle on the tick marks initially. Then after the carb is final adjusted and the vehicle driven, it gets parked and the choke allowed to cool. Then I observe the starting "action" for a dead cold engine. Sometimes the choke cap needs to be moved "slightly", most of the time not, each vehicle is different.

The "average" tick Mark I find for the choke on most engines is two ticks from the center towards the "Rich" designation and snug the screws.

Once a carb is set for optimum performance, they don't "drift" in mixture calibration unless there is a vacuum leak or some sort of abnormal temperature event regarding the engine itself. And many times temperature and vacuum leak go hand-in-hand due to expansion/contraction of various components.

With my new meter I can tell that I am not acheiving 1400-1600 rpm from dead cold. At two tick marks above dead center pushed the throttle down and the choke set. It opened less than a quarter after 2 minutes but never idled past 900-950 rpms. This time I did roll the choke cap further towards the radiator to release the choke so I am unsure if I had a little choke action going on when I set the carb earlier in the week. Also the carb is functioning excellent. No pops. Good idle. Good takeup throughout the whole range of opening the throttle. Even at a low idle speed the truck in gear did not miss a beat. The brakes held. Good pedal there, so I will go to the hardware store tomorrow because none of the parts stores had any pipe plugs outside of oreilly and they had one of those pos assortment packs. I have the egr plugged and only have the booster and the dist on vacuum. I have the two switches plugged with vacuum hose and a bolt at the end. I almost bought a pack of inline vacuum fittings today but was really set to get the new courtesy led's and cargo light wired in and ready. Now all I need are new door pin switches and with the addition of the switch in the back (thanks Jeff) I should be able to illuminate the interior. Mike it's really weird that the engine runs so well with the new carb. I'm not getting any of the running like shit indications that I would think I would see with a vacuum leak. I read alot of posts every day so I did use a factroy switched b+ from the firewall (right where you said it would be) and when I push on the choke plate it moves against the spring. When I roll the cap the choke plate opens. Outside of the hot plate what else can there be. Jeff mentioned that he had to adjust the linkage a little and I have to say everything move freely. If I can roll the cap and the plate opens that should be an indication of the choke linkage operating properly. And it was 80 here today so really and truly the weather has been hot. My wife starts the vehicle and sits with her foot on the gas for about a minute and then lets it idle for a few and then brings the kids to school. The choke is still really not a priority because the truck does run a shitload better than with the precious carb. I'll get the fittings tomorrow and start diagnosing with the mityvak for the drift but May end up with just figuring I didn't turn the choke cap far enough. I want to reiterate. No miss at all with this new carb. Even in gear with a low rpm 600 this thing still idles well and holds brakes.

 

[Michael Mayben]

When the electric choke kit is installed on the carb, the fast idle "lever" assembly on the passenger side is removed from the manual choke system and replaced with parts contained in the choke kit.

Once the vehicle is operational, then the fast idle speed adjustment screw must be "set"... We can get close when doing the choke conversion, but without the engine running it's impossible to set it for a top fast idle rpm of the target 1400>1600rpm. I know from doing this visually during setup about where to set it because I've done many of these and then installed the carb and made the final adjustment.

I know the fast idle screw head is difficult to access with the carb installed, but it can certainly be done with the right wrench. So manually bring the fast idle cam into the highest position, then set the fast idle stop screw to the recommended rpm. That's it, from then on it will not require any additional attention.

This can be done with the engine at any temp and the choke completely opened. That red nylon fast idle cam moves independently of the choke system once the bimetal spring has fully heated. In fact...when using my rig for winching, I pop the hood and kick the fast idle cam into highest idle position with fingers to keep the alternator spinning max output.

Again, ambient temperature and engine temperature have nothing to do with that choke operation. It does not matter whether the ambient is "hot", "warm", "cool", "cold", or anywhere in between! A properly functioning choke system is imperative for any carbureted engine app, these are no different. As far as the engine and intake manifold is concerned, whether the ambient is 100*f or 0*f, it still needs a choke system that operates. That is exactly the reason these particular carb setups work so well once they are dialed in for each engine. The starting drill will be near identical and just as quick as any current vehicle with a complete electronically-controlled engine system.

This pic shows the fast idle adjustment screw before the choke housing is mounted. Pic was supplied by one of our members here at ihon, david fulford. He and I did a lot of work on his rig several years ago in order to get his electric choke conversion to play nice, including coming up with an additional modification that we make on those few engine setups where the electric choke simply needs some "help". But, we'll not go there at this time unless in the final go-round, we can't make yours work perfectly.

 

[scoutpappa]

I'm going to adjust the choke to two ticks above center and then I am going to drive it to the parts house to get the tee so I can install in the vacuum line to the booster. Before I take off I'm gonna record the rpm results and when I get back I will do all the warm test for vacuum. Do the ranges in the mityvak book apply to an IH engine or is there a range/s that I should be aware of? If the guage fluctuates as described in the mityvak book is that still valid as a too Rich/lean scenario? What is optimun for vacuum in a stock IH engine with the correct carb set at the correct idle mixture? How much vacuum should I see?

 

[Michael Mayben]

I'm going to adjust the choke to two ticks above center and then I am going to drive it to the parts house to get the tee so I can install in the vacuum line to the booster. Before I take off I'm gonna record the rpm results and when I get back I will do all the warm test for vacuum. Do the ranges in the mityvak book apply to an IH engine or is there a range/s that I should be aware of? If the guage fluctuates as described in the mityvak book is that still valid as a too Rich/lean scenario? What is optimun for vacuum in a stock IH engine with the correct carb set at the correct idle mixture? How much vacuum should I see?

The information contained in that mityvac reference are basically "general" and "typical" in nature.

For adjusting the idle mixture, you are trying to achielve highest manifold vacuum when each screw is set to it's optimal position, and that is only noted when the idle rpm is within the previously advised range. As the mixtures change, so does idle rpm so you have to monitor everything simultaneously.

A typical idle manifold vacuum reading on one of these motors that is in average internal condition with oem camshaft, and has no vacuum leaks and the ignition timing is optimized, would be a minimum of 17"hg...with the "norm" (at your near sea level altitude) at 18.5>19.5"hg.

 

[scoutpappa]

the information contained in that mityvac reference are basically "general" and "typical" in nature.

For adjusting the idle mixture, you are trying to achielve highest manifold vacuum when each screw is set to it's optimal position, and that is only noted when the idle rpm is within the previously advised range. As the mixtures change, so does idle rpm so you have to monitor everything simultaneously.

A typical idle manifold vacuum reading on one of these motors that is in average internal condition with oem camshaft, and has no vacuum leaks and the ignition timing is optimized, would be a minimum of 17"hg...with the "norm" (at your near sea level altitude) at 18.5>19.5"hg.

Ok. I am going to check for those numbers when I get back. I put two meters on the engine and set the choke to 2 ticks above center. I aslo checked again to make sure the spring was attached to the arm. Turned the key set the choke and then fire her up. Immediately went to the meter and saw 900 rpms so I got a terminating screwdriver and turned the screw below the idle assembley until I acheived 1300-1400 rpms. Now in this whole time of doing this the plate never went back but maybe a 1/4 inch. Did not open all the way. No drop in rpms either. So I loosened the cap and rolled it to the radiator until I was back down to idle. I checked voltage on the + with my fluke 787 with the wire removed and with the engine riunning I was getting 14.9 vdc. Now the meter is above question so the cap does not feel warm. Is it possible I am getting too much voltage and have fried the choke? I'm off to get vacuum fittings to check the at temp things I can today. I understand the choke is important so I want to get it right.

 

[scoutpappa]

Quote=michael mayben;40102]the information contained in that mityvac reference are basically "general" and "typical" in nature.

For adjusting the idle mixture, you are trying to achielve highest manifold vacuum when each screw is set to it's optimal position, and that is only noted when the idle rpm is within the previously advised range. As the mixtures change, so does idle rpm so you have to monitor everything simultaneously.

A typical idle manifold vacuum reading on one of these motors that is in average internal condition with oem camshaft, and has no vacuum leaks and the ignition timing is optimized, would be a minimum of 17"hg...with the "norm" (at your near sea level altitude) at 18.5>19.5"hg.[/quote]

Ok. Got back with the tees and caps and installed a tee between the booster and and the carb dead center

And attached at that point at definately running temp. From the house to auto zone and back across fm1960 so definately running temp water and oil. Shut her off and installed the tee. Hooked up the mityvak and got 21" hg no stuttering of the guage at all. At idle for 4-5 minutes 21" hg. When I revved the motor up the vacuum increased and decreased off throttle.

Image May be hard to see but steady as can be the needle barley moved a 1000th of an inch plus or minus.

 

[scoutpappa]

Forgot to post the other specifics.

This was at about 780 rpms in park

I seem to get a little fluctuation in the meter. It jumps up or down in 100 rpm incriments. Never really steady. I am assuming since I am pulling off the coil with a digital meter this is normal.

The truck runs smooth with no discernable increase/decrease in rpm listening to the truck.

And on a final thought. The throttle pedal doesn't open the carb all the way up. I pulled the cable back as far as I can with the current set up but looking at this as an amateur this cable looks like the right cable for the bracket that holds it so I May need to drill the throttle linkage and set the cable further towards the front of the truck to acheive full actuation of the throttle. Is this normal? Mike I know you said that the linkage sometimes needs to be drilled.

 

[Michael Mayben]

A digital tachometer is a real pita to use unless it's heavily buffered as part of it's circuitry! Ya just have to deal with that mentally when using! The actual variation in "spark count" is certainly normal for any ignition system hookup, but the instrument can't display in single digit resolution, otherwise the display would be unreadable as it scrolls around constantly! Don't sweat that, it's just part of "modern" instrumentation. And...that unilite distributor trigger is far more stable and uniform that any breaker point signal would display!

You must be able to achieve full throttle control from the throttle pedal. The cable must have some slack in it when at idle (so that the engine moving on the mounts doesn't affect throttle position) and allow wot fully. That must be set up first! So if ya need to drill an additional hole in the throttle lever for the cable ballstud, then do so. But a warning...that throttle lever is hardened to a degree so that it doesn't wear over time. So it can be a bit tough to drill using a cordless drill.

Only after the throttle cable is properly mounted and adjusted, can you make the final transmission "kickdown" adjustment. The movement of the throttle lever and the movement of the kickdown control must be in exact synchronization. That means, at idle, the kickdown control is in the "minimum" position (it's spring-loaded inside the transmission), and at wot, it's all the way "back" but not hard against it's internal stop inside the transmission.

The Scout II used an "adjustable" connection on the link rod that goes down to the transmission. It has a pinch-bolt that clamps it to the cross-shaft. Once the throttle cable/connection issue is resolved, then simply re-position the kickdown control if needed so that it works also in full-travel mode.

21"hg manifold vacuum is outstanding!!! It won't be any better than that on one of these motors!!

Be real anal about getting the curb idle speed set correctly in park or neutral. One thing that is really hard on a tf727 tranny is having an idle speed that is too high when the tranny is cold, and then dropping into gear. That is what causes low/reverse band breakage and "servo piston flop"!! The trans has to warm up just like the engine...and with an non-modified valve body, the torque converter on a 727 does not "fill with the shift lever in park. So a good habit to develop is to start the engine and acheive stable fast idle, then while holding the brake pedal, place the shifter in neutral while the engine warms...that causes the torque converter to fill very quickly and the transmission will appreciate that in the long run! If the transmission ever needs to be serviced, installing a transgo tf-1 or tf-2 shift kit will solve that issue permanently.

 

[scoutpappa]

a digital tachometer is a real pita to use unless it's heavily buffered as part of it's circuitry! Ya just have to deal with that mentally when using! The actual variation in "spark count" is certainly normal for any ignition system hookup, but the instrument can't display in single digit resolution, otherwise the display would be unreadable as it scrolls around constantly! Don't sweat that, it's just part of "modern" instrumentation. And...that unilite distributor trigger is far more stable and uniform that any breaker point signal would display!

You must be able to achieve full throttle control from the throttle pedal. The cable must have some slack in it when at idle (so that the engine moving on the mounts doesn't affect throttle position) and allow wot fully. That must be set up first! So if ya need to drill an additional hole in the throttle lever for the cable ballstud, then do so. But a warning...that throttle lever is hardened to a degree so that it doesn't wear over time. So it can be a bit tough to drill using a cordless drill.

Only after the throttle cable is properly mounted and adjusted, can you make the final transmission "kickdown" adjustment. The movement of the throttle lever and the movement of the kickdown control must be in exact synchronization. That means, at idle, the kickdown control is in the "minimum" position (it's spring-loaded inside the transmission), and at wot, it's all the way "back" but not hard against it's internal stop inside the transmission.

The Scout II used an "adjustable" connection on the link rod that goes down to the transmission. It has a pinch-bolt that clamps it to the cross-shaft. Once the throttle cable/connection issue is resolved, then simply re-position the kickdown control if needed so that it works also in full-travel mode.

21"hg manifold vacuum is outstanding!!! It won't be any better than that on one of these motors!!

Be real anal about getting the curb idle speed set correctly in park or neutral. One thing that is really hard on a tf727 tranny is having an idle speed that is too high when the tranny is cold, and then dropping into gear. That is what causes low/reverse band breakage and "servo piston flop"!! The trans has to warm up just like the engine...and with an non-modified valve body, the torque converter on a 727 does not "fill with the shift lever in park. So a good habit to develop is to start the engine and acheive stable fast idle, then while holding the brake pedal, place the shifter in neutral while the engine warms...that causes the torque converter to fill very quickly and the transmission will appreciate that in the long run! If the transmission ever needs to be serviced, installing a transgo tf-1 or tf-2 shift kit will solve that issue permanently.

I'm going to have to play with that some more. The throttle cable appears to be a stock type. It has a plastic piece molded to it that fits in the bracket. The slot is elongated and I pushed it as far forward (towards the radiator) as possible while making sure I had all the cable possible (I thought) I checked it all the way back and one of the only things I can think of is that I have a carpet kit installed (po) and maybe that is taking up the little bit more I need. I gotta call Jeff and get his thoughts on the choke so I'll check and see if he has a cable. I'll get the idle down a little more. With the mityvak showing 21"hg I am confident that the idle mixture screws are where they need to be and I have no vacuum leaks. I'll let my wife know about the transmission warm up. As it is it probably idles warms up for about five minutes every day before she goes anywhere.

 

[Michael Mayben]

The entire throttle "system" for a Scout II is problematic. There are two different cables, the one with the slot or holes for the nylon conduit anchor in front of the carb, and one that is infinitely adjustable in the anchor bracket. We keep both types. Also the retainer for the cable end at the throttle arm in the cab is different:

throttle cable - IH Parts America : International Scout parts

The other issue is the throttle pedal lever itself mounted inside the cab. Those bend/brake at the pivot. That eats up travel significantly. And as you said, any form of aftermarket floor covering (or removable mat) will prevent full pedal depression.

I fully believe the reason you have a somewhat "high" curb idle speed is because the idle speed is too high. That will give a "false" manifold vacuum reading.

 

[scoutpappa]

the entire throttle "system" for a Scout II is problematic. There are two different cables, the one with the slot or holes for the nylon conduit anchor in front of the carb, and one that is infinitely adjustable in the anchor bracket. We keep both types. Also the retainer for the cable end at the throttle arm in the cab is different:

throttle cable - IH Parts America : International Scout parts

The other issue is the throttle pedal lever itself mounted inside the cab. Those bend/brake at the pivot. That eats up travel significantly. And as you said, any form of aftermarket floor covering (or removable mat) will prevent full pedal depression.

I fully believe the reason you have a somewhat "high" curb idle speed is because the idle speed is too high. That will give a "false" manifold vacuum reading.

After the test I feel more confident that there are no vacuum leaks. Now I will adjust the idle speed down a little more. Since I have my new "easy" test port I'll post a second reading at 750/740 and also in gear.

Also I don't know the age of the cable so replacement is an easy option and if one is infinately adjustable then that is the one I want. I looked at the cables so I'll give Jeff a call. Still have the choke issue to work out. Any thoughts on the voltage readings? Could I have fried the heater element?

 

[scoutpappa]

I talked to Jeff this week and decided to start with the electrical system first for the choke. Checked the alternator from dead to charging off of the post going to the battery. Had 12.75vdc at rest. Started her up and had almost 15vdc. So I took the alternator down and brought it to the local autozone and tested it there also. It passed but I asked him to fail it and purchased a "new" reman. After grinding down the stationary bolt casing to fit it back in I have the same readings on my fluke that I had previously. Now I have it on autorange but this is a fluke 787. So I trust the readings. So the only thing I accomplished outside of a lot of cussing was replacing a "good" alternator with a "new" reman. Now my vacuum readings are at the 18" range and she seems to be idling lower without having done anything to the idle speed. Still no jumping but the needle jerks in a very tight range so in less than "hg reading it moves very quickly back and forth but never moves from right at 19"hg. When you rev the motor then the hg reading goes to about 25"hg. And now for whatever reason my new meter has decided it doesn't want to do rpm's so I'll take it down and see if I popped a fuse. Getting frustrated with working on this thing all the time and not getting to at least consistent results. Maybe I'm overthinking "f"ng with it too much too. It starts goes in gear and stops. Maybe I should just leave it alone.

 

[Michael Mayben]

I agreed with Jeff when we talked that your overall vehicle voltage "output" was too high. That is typical of these 10si alternators that use "reman" internal regulators that are shit quality. I've had my own "rebuilts" I was buying locally fry some electrical apparatus when I'd catch 'em spiking at 40+vdc! One of my column-mounted tachometers actually caught fire internally while driving down the highway at the same time it blew both headlamp sealed beams!

But I really don't think that is causing you choke issue at all.

Take the choke cap off. Put it in the freezer for 30 minutes. Then pull it out and quickly rig two jumpers directly to the battery without the engine running no switch needed). Watch the action of the spring closely...it should go from full "off" to full "on" in under 4 minutes average time just using your watch, this is not rocket science but an observation I make day in and day out. It gets hot so wear gloves.

Repeat that same thing a few times looking for consistency. If the choke cap is bogus, then we'll certainly take care of that for you, but in 10 years I've had only one choke cap not operate correctly. Those are "solid state" heater elements internally and dead reliable.

And by the way, even though the carter/edelbrock elctric choke caps look identical to the Holley (and fit the same on the choke housing), they are not interchangeable, one is left-hand rotation, one is right-hand rotation!

The curb idle speed (and curb idle mixtures) are set only after full warm up and the choke plate fully open and the fast idle cam dropped completely out. The curb idle speed should never vary if a proper throttle return spring is rigged and the throttle cable is adjusted properly and not binding at all. Faults in the throttle cable setup are what I see most often when those conversions are done. The Holley-mounted coil spring on the throttle shaft is not a "throttle return spring", it is only a "fail-safe" kinda bandaid for liability purposes! You must have a very firm (preferably dual) throttle return spring system rigged in order to have the throttle return to idle after every activation.

Between "tests" of the electric choke cap, it must be removed and chilled down back to full retraction or the hood left up and the engine non-started for at least two hours, I do that with a fan rigged to blow across the choke cap.

 

[scoutpappa]

I agreed with Jeff when we talked that your overall vehicle voltage "output" was too high. That is typical of these 10si alternators that use "reman" internal regulators that are shit quality. I've had my own "rebuilts" I was buying locally fry some electrical apparatus when I'd catch 'em spiking at 40+vdc! One of my column-mounted tachometers actually caught fire internally while driving down the highway at the same time it blew both headlamp sealed beams!

But I really don't think that is causing you choke issue at all.

Take the choke cap off. Put it in the freezer for 30 minutes. Then pull it out and quickly rig two jumpers directly to the battery without the engine running no switch needed). Watch the action of the spring closely...it should go from full "off" to full "on" in under 4 minutes average time just using your watch, this is not rocket science but an observation I make day in and day out. It gets hot so wear gloves.

Repeat that same thing a few times looking for consistency. If the choke cap is bogus, then we'll certainly take care of that for you, but in 10 years I've had only one choke cap not operate correctly. Those are "solid state" heater elements internally and dead reliable.

And by the way, even though the carter/edelbrock elctric choke caps look identical to the Holley (and fit the same on the choke housing), they are not interchangeable, one is left-hand rotation, one is right-hand rotation!

The curb idle speed (and curb idle mixtures) are set only after full warm up and the choke plate fully open and the fast idle cam dropped completely out. The curb idle speed should never vary if a proper throttle return spring is rigged and the throttle cable is adjusted properly and not binding at all. Faults in the throttle cable setup are what I see most often when those conversions are done. The Holley-mounted coil spring on the throttle shaft is not a "throttle return spring", it is only a "fail-safe" kinda bandaid for liability purposes! You must have a very firm (preferably dual) throttle return spring system rigged in order to have the throttle return to idle after every activation.

Between "tests" of the electric choke cap, it must be removed and chilled down back to full retraction or the hood left up and the engine non-started for at least two hours, I do that with a fan rigged to blow across the choke cap.

Sorry Mike, some of this was venting frustration. I will follow the directions and post back what I see. In reality this has become one of those situations that when I bought the truck it was a toy and now that it is an everyday source of transportation I have become paranoid. In reality the comment about it starting, running and stopping is true. It does that quite a few times a day every day. What I "want" is the same results every time I start it and decide to put guages on it. This is probably unrealistic and asinine. I fought to put the alternator back on because of the brackets and was ready to throw everything so at best I am reverting to juevenile behavior. I pretty much have to work harder to not expect perfect in this situation. I just want it to be perfect.

 

[scoutpappa]

Alright back from vacation so this weekend is get the Scout running like I expect it too. Have a mallory ignition 6855m - mallory hyfire 6 ez digital cd ignition box kit to install as well. Want to wrap up the reliability, even though we have not really suffered without the choke, still want everything right. Mike, the mallory website shows the hookup retaining the "stock" coil. The online instructions are very generic. I've yet to receive the new box but am curious as to how it works. The instructions show a direct connection to the battery to the box and then a plug harness to the new coil and from the new coil to the distributor. The old coil plugs in to the box. It says leave all the other wiring alone. I know we have talked about these boxes and the conversation has invoved deleting the ballast resistor. I guess I assumed that I would delete the canister coil and wire in the low resistance e coil, not utilize everything I already have plus add in more components. Did I maybe get the wrong parts?

 

[Michael Mayben]

The mallory 6ez system is a unique unit. I have no experience with those and in my opinion, adding an additional ignition coil to the oem or existing coil is asking for double trouble. I've have looked at 'em but elected to not go forward regarding the use of those systems.

I agree, the mallory instructions for that unit is a bit ambiguous, they should have explained the actual interface and how this system functions in a technical manner. But the market for that unit is someone with no experience who has difficulty in finding both the fuel filler and the hood latch on a typical vehicle. As I understand this, the entire ignition system as you currently have it configured and operating is left intact.

The two "power" leads go to an unswitched battery voltage source (they recommend directly to the battery, I personally would never do something like that!). Then the new coil is interfaced with the box and the oem coil. Last step is to connect the special wire termination to the new coil.

So...your existing wiring system is turning the add-on system "on and off". I don't know how the oem coil and the new coil interface inside the box, but I'm assuming that somehow provides the amplified trigger signal from the distributor to the box, which then converts the signal into a higher voltage primary signal that triggers the new coil.

This system is kinda "new" and intended for the complete novice, msd has done a similar setup with their "streetfire" product line.

 

[scoutpappa]

the mallory 6ez system is a unique unit. I have no experience with those and in my opinion, adding an additional ignition coil to the oem or existing coil is asking for double trouble. I've have looked at 'em but elected to not go forward regarding the use of those systems.

I agree, the mallory instructions for that unit is a bit ambiguous, they should have explained the actual interface and how this system functions in a technical manner. But the market for that unit is someone with no experience who has difficulty in finding both the fuel filler and the hood latch on a typical vehicle. As I understand this, the entire ignition system as you currently have it configured and operating is left intact.

The two "power" leads go to an unswitched battery voltage source (they recommend directly to the battery, I personally would never do something like that!). Then the new coil is interfaced with the box and the oem coil. Last step is to connect the special wire termination to the new coil.

So...your existing wiring system is turning the add-on system "on and off". I don't know how the oem coil and the new coil interface inside the box, but I'm assuming that somehow provides the amplified trigger signal from the distributor to the box, which then converts the signal into a higher voltage primary signal that triggers the new coil.

This system is kinda "new" and intended for the complete novice, msd has done a similar setup with their "streetfire" product line.

Shit I saw so many options for a six box that I got all excited when I started reading on the kits. I saw e coil included so figured it was a regular six box and coil and wiring in one nice package. So is it worth keeping? Just arrived today.

 

[Michael Mayben]

shit I saw so many options for a six box that I got all excited when I started reading on the kits. I saw e coil included so figured it was a regular six box and coil and wiring in one nice package. So is it worth keeping? Just arrived today.

I fully understand the dilemma folks are faced with when looking at all these ignition system upgrades, so much of the marketing hype is just that...hype!

I study this ignition technology continuously, but in the last 20 years, there is really nothing new and considered a killer app. And much of it is aimed at the total novice looking to obtain nitrous-type power increases on their four-door civic simply by screwin' with their computer!

When you study this ignition stuff in depth and then compare all the available systems/components on the market, you see that no one manufacturer does anything really any different than the other. And in many cases, they actually simply "re-brand" someone else's product as their own in a private label deal. Then add in all the bullshit that big boyz like jegs, summit, century, j.c. Whitney/speedway/tognotti etc. Toss around and it gets even more mindbending. In reality, they all do exactly the same thing in the same manner!

Sure, there are some subtle differences when you get into the very high end race-only goodies, some of which must be used in certain race class applications, but that stuff has no value at all for our street/trail use!

An example...for a typical GM engine app, there are more than 20 versions of the so-called delco "hei" distributor alone, all of which are marketed as the latest/greatest. But...they are still a dam hei distributor system which is about as old skool "tech" as electronic trigger ignition systems come, one step beyond breaker points in my opinion. Those are inductive systems and no where near the level of performance of any capacitive discharge system, though some are available with a halfass cd-converted internal module. And the msd distributor line for street use is basically an hei-based system (mag trigger since the beginning) that uses a Ford-design mag trigger since the delco mag triggers are shit!

You already have the finest distributors made exactly for an IH application that is available form any source. Mallory is the only manufacturer of a true IH-pattern aftermarket replacement distributor for these engines.

That distributor, combined with a stand-alone mallory 6852 (absolutely no use for a "rev limiter" version for an IH engine), and an appropriate matching coil as we've discussed so many times is the best you can achieve. And with that system, you will not use the ballast resistor.