Erik VanRenselaar
Member
Is there an ideal additive product for those of us who use modern off-the-shelf motor oils in their pre-1981 engines? I see that the stp oil treatment touts that it contains zddp.
ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?
- Thread starter Erik VanRenselaar
- Start date
DF Sales&Marketing
Oil Tech Moderator
Hi eric,
the swepco 502 oil improver contains both zinc and micronized moly. One pint treats up to 5 quarts of oil and at that rate will increase the zinc by approx 175ppm. It is not recommended for engines requiring sm, sn or cj-4 oils as it will increase the level and put it out of spec for those newer engines which are 2007 and newer.
Units of 502 are available from IH Parts America. For more information go to the "lubricants" section.
Incidently, the treatment ratio mentioned above will increase the zinc level to around 1,000 ppm, whereas the swepco 306 engine oil in 10w30, 15w40 and 20w50 has a +/- 1,600 ppm level of zinc and 1,200 ppm of phosphorous. Those are also available at IH Parts America under the same tag of "lubricants."
the swepco 502 oil improver contains both zinc and micronized moly. One pint treats up to 5 quarts of oil and at that rate will increase the zinc by approx 175ppm. It is not recommended for engines requiring sm, sn or cj-4 oils as it will increase the level and put it out of spec for those newer engines which are 2007 and newer.
Units of 502 are available from IH Parts America. For more information go to the "lubricants" section.
Incidently, the treatment ratio mentioned above will increase the zinc level to around 1,000 ppm, whereas the swepco 306 engine oil in 10w30, 15w40 and 20w50 has a +/- 1,600 ppm level of zinc and 1,200 ppm of phosphorous. Those are also available at IH Parts America under the same tag of "lubricants."
overdrivesteve
Member
Hi,
could you also comment on this quote regarding levels of zinc and phosphorous:
" since the additives are polar, they fight for surface area. The addition of extra zddp usually results in reduced cleanliness, higher engine temperatures and more deposits. Some studies have shown that going past 1400 ppm of phosphorus will increase wear over the long term, and going above 2000 ppm will begin to break down iron and result in camshaft spalling. "
also, what does this mean?
" zddp, when burned, leaves deposits on pistons, heads, ring grooves, valves, etc. Tests
show that oils with 1% sulfated ash leave 58% less deposits in the engine than oils with
1.45% sulfated ash. Every ounce of additive that you add increases the ash content."
does zddp become sulfated ash or what is sulfated ash and is it good or bad?
This is quoted from: http://www.widman.biz/uploads/corvair_oil.pdf
Thanks.
Steve
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IceFyre13th
Member
I use zddplus
it actually has zddp in it and that is what our engines really need.
Zddp (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) is not the same as zinc or moly
it actually has zddp in it and that is what our engines really need.
Zddp (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) is not the same as zinc or moly
overdrivesteve
Member
Ok, so now I'm even more confused. When you state "it actually has zddp in it", are you referring to the zddplus product or the swepco 306 oil? The swepco guy above states the 306 oil has zinc and moly but you state that is different from zddp and that the zddp is what we really need. So does the 306 have zddp too? I've been reading for hours on the subject tonight, and now my head is swimming with information overload, but from other sites as the zddplus.com site has been down tonight.
Perhaps I'm trying to over-analyze a good thing. But I'm really just trying to intelligently understand and not be a sheep. Perhaps if anyone can share some links such as "oil analysis for dummies" it would help get me up to speed.
Let me ask another question, has anyone ever heard of a better oil or oil formulation for our old, low rpm, heavy v8 gas engines? And other than price, has anyone ever found a negative review in any forum for the swepco oils or their other products? I admit in my searching for independent reviews, other than price, I've seen nothing negative. But my searching keeps directing me to porsche and bmw forums, which do not equate well to our engines.
jeff campbell
Active member
Just use good ole shell rotella ! It's made for our engines.Jeff
ihpartschad
IHPA General Manager
As mentioned in many many other threads, this is a free site provided and paid for by IH Parts America. I would again ask that you not post links or price references to competing products or vendors. We encourage an open discussion on most topics but would appreciate you limiting it to discussion. Thanks for understanding.
jeff campbell
Active member
Woop's sorry bout that,I forgot-Jeff
IceFyre13th
Member
Zddp is a compound molecule, this is what gives it the high pressure lubrication properties the cam lobes need.
Zinc by itself will do nothing, same with phosphorus. But combined into zddp then it works.
The newer vehicles with catalytic convertors do not like zinc as zinc will coat the internals of the convertor and shorten its life.
Zddp is a sacrificial molecule, during its "life" it breaks down into zinc and phosphorus........and why you have to change your oil, along with other reasons. And why the oil companies are reducing / eliminating zddp in oils made today (so the convertors last as long as the federal government wants).
If you do not Want to have to use zddp additives then find an oil that still has it in (like jeffs recommendation) or replace the cam with a roller lifter type (but I don't think we have any for the IH engines).
I like using additives and the oil (that is api recognized, not one that claims to exceed api standards) of my choice together (full synthetic) as imho The other types of oils are not as good.
Zinc by itself will do nothing, same with phosphorus. But combined into zddp then it works.
The newer vehicles with catalytic convertors do not like zinc as zinc will coat the internals of the convertor and shorten its life.
Zddp is a sacrificial molecule, during its "life" it breaks down into zinc and phosphorus........and why you have to change your oil, along with other reasons. And why the oil companies are reducing / eliminating zddp in oils made today (so the convertors last as long as the federal government wants).
If you do not Want to have to use zddp additives then find an oil that still has it in (like jeffs recommendation) or replace the cam with a roller lifter type (but I don't think we have any for the IH engines).
I like using additives and the oil (that is api recognized, not one that claims to exceed api standards) of my choice together (full synthetic) as imho The other types of oils are not as good.
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71mtnscout
Member
I have always used valvoline vr-1, it has the zddp that the older engines need and is available at most auto parts stores.
As a customer I'll make a small testimony to the superior nature of swepco products.
I have found the 306 particularly well suited to the engines in the old iron I keep runn'in. The viscosity seems to hold up better in that my operating pressures when hot stay up even at 5k miles. It's not my aim to discredit chevron in any way; but what I would see for example would be a hot idle pressure of 18 to 20 psi when the delo 15/40 was put in at change time. After 3k miles, the hot idle pressure would hover at just about 10 to 12 psi. Is that viscosity breakdown? Without a viscosity meter I cannot say. My lifter clatter at start up that used to be frequent with other oils, and especially when it was near changing time, is practically gone since I switched to 306.
That's just my real world experience, I have no proof in raw data; but I'm very happy with the 306.
The oil has the recommended levels of protection be it zddp, boron etc. Oil and additives are a very tightly controlled recipe and it's very easy to upset them with additives off the shelf. It has always been a give and take balance, and you end up sacrificing one while thinking you've gained on the other if you dope it yourself. Also the additives the manufacturers use are cost competitive, so the better oils with the better ingredients follows the you get what you pay for.
As "boutique" (as opposed to off the shelf) oils go, yes it's pricey, but I can go to 5k miles easy between changes, or once a year if I don't put on that many miles. It makes good cents for me.
I shy away from racing oil for one important reason; I don't drive a race track. While they have superior boundary lube protection, anti-scuff and film strength improvers, etc.; I don't see them as long term protection for intermittent use or commuter driving. The detergents, acid fighters, rust and oxidation prevention and such aren't in them to the degree I need them. What's the 1st that goes after a heat? Usually the oil gets changed, so why bother with the chemistry to the degree that Joe comooter, tim trailrider, or grandma needs.
Something to think about.
I have found the 306 particularly well suited to the engines in the old iron I keep runn'in. The viscosity seems to hold up better in that my operating pressures when hot stay up even at 5k miles. It's not my aim to discredit chevron in any way; but what I would see for example would be a hot idle pressure of 18 to 20 psi when the delo 15/40 was put in at change time. After 3k miles, the hot idle pressure would hover at just about 10 to 12 psi. Is that viscosity breakdown? Without a viscosity meter I cannot say. My lifter clatter at start up that used to be frequent with other oils, and especially when it was near changing time, is practically gone since I switched to 306.
That's just my real world experience, I have no proof in raw data; but I'm very happy with the 306.
The oil has the recommended levels of protection be it zddp, boron etc. Oil and additives are a very tightly controlled recipe and it's very easy to upset them with additives off the shelf. It has always been a give and take balance, and you end up sacrificing one while thinking you've gained on the other if you dope it yourself. Also the additives the manufacturers use are cost competitive, so the better oils with the better ingredients follows the you get what you pay for.
As "boutique" (as opposed to off the shelf) oils go, yes it's pricey, but I can go to 5k miles easy between changes, or once a year if I don't put on that many miles. It makes good cents for me.
I shy away from racing oil for one important reason; I don't drive a race track. While they have superior boundary lube protection, anti-scuff and film strength improvers, etc.; I don't see them as long term protection for intermittent use or commuter driving. The detergents, acid fighters, rust and oxidation prevention and such aren't in them to the degree I need them. What's the 1st that goes after a heat? Usually the oil gets changed, so why bother with the chemistry to the degree that Joe comooter, tim trailrider, or grandma needs.
Something to think about.
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DF Sales&Marketing
Oil Tech Moderator
Please realize that swepco products are made under stringent conditions and utilize proprietary formulations. I can only comment on areas which do not apply as proprietary.
Zddp has been a commonly used additive in engine oils for several decades, it is in plentiful supply and is available in different quality grades. With the epa limiting the amount of zddp in engine oil starting in 2007 with the sm (now also sn) api classifications, a horde of manufacturers came out with their version of zinc/phosphorous combinations for the protection of cams, particularly in those engines which utilize flat tappet cams. Some of these can be classified as "snake oils" and are marketed very well to the unsuspecting public.
One of the comments made on this subject was that too much zinc would not be good, and in fact cause some detrimental effects such as harmful deposits. That is probably good when you do not have a balanced formula which utilizes top quality chemicals and additives.
The swepco 306 engine oil has a balanced additive package, it has been produced to meet not only gasoline engine requirements up until 2007, as well as diesel engine requirements up until 2007. Now, most oil manufacturers produce separate items for gasoline and diesel equipment because the restriction on zddp is different on them.
306 will meet the api rating of "sl" and previous specifications for gasoline engine, it also meets the api rating of ci-4 for diesel engines and previous designations (the 4 in ci-4 designates that it is for a 4-stroke engine). This is called "backwards compatibility." the confusing part to people who are low-informational concerning specifications is that the new oil specs say that they are "backwards compatible" which, by law they must be, however that does not mean that the newer ones are the best to use in older equipment of pre 2007.
502 oil improver has been produced for a long time without making a chemical change. It is a balanced formulation which not only contains zddp, but also has other chemicals in the formula which contain a detergent package, just to name one. It is not recommended for use in 2007 or newer engines because it will raise the level such that it will be out of spec.
With regard to references relating to porsche & bmw - you might have guessed that practically any make or model of any vehicle has certain areas which "need help." most porsches for example have flat tappet cam engines - they also have some hard shifting problems in the manual transmissions, and swepco 201 gear oil is renowned for helping, if not eliminating those problems.
Greg mentioned that he would not use a "racing oil" in his equipment. Swepco was not formulated to be a "racing oil," but it has done very well in the high performance race cars, and in fact my hobby is 360 sprint cars which utilize flat tappet cams and usually run out at over 700 horsepower on a modified chevrolet 350 block...those engines are somewhat pricy at over $30,000.00, so these owners want to get more bang for their buck and have equipment that lasts longer. Greg's "testimonial" about using swepco 306 is typical for the people who have tried it.
IHPA has been using swepco lubricants since 2007, and after testing it on his own equipment, Jeff asked me to be the monitor for the lube section. I deliver orders to his shop practically every-other week which he uses in the shop, as well as for an extensive web order business. From the volume of products he has gone through in the last 6 years, I'm sure he has over 100 customers with the products.
Sulfonated ash is used as part of the detergent additive package and as a metal deactivator, it is true that in some applications it leaves deposits, this is why engine manufacturers who build engines like the detroit diesel 2-strokes, and engines which run on digester gas, or cng require a very low amount of it in the oils they use. Most of those would call for less than .01% sulfonated ash.
If you were to dip a dirty copper penny into a highly concentrated sulfonated ash mixture, it would come out bright and shiny, but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily good in high amounts in an engine oil.
You have to remember that lubrication chemistry is very complicated and sometimes being your own chemist is not a good idea unless you are a full fledged tribologist!
I hope I covered everything with this post.
Dick
Zddp has been a commonly used additive in engine oils for several decades, it is in plentiful supply and is available in different quality grades. With the epa limiting the amount of zddp in engine oil starting in 2007 with the sm (now also sn) api classifications, a horde of manufacturers came out with their version of zinc/phosphorous combinations for the protection of cams, particularly in those engines which utilize flat tappet cams. Some of these can be classified as "snake oils" and are marketed very well to the unsuspecting public.
One of the comments made on this subject was that too much zinc would not be good, and in fact cause some detrimental effects such as harmful deposits. That is probably good when you do not have a balanced formula which utilizes top quality chemicals and additives.
The swepco 306 engine oil has a balanced additive package, it has been produced to meet not only gasoline engine requirements up until 2007, as well as diesel engine requirements up until 2007. Now, most oil manufacturers produce separate items for gasoline and diesel equipment because the restriction on zddp is different on them.
306 will meet the api rating of "sl" and previous specifications for gasoline engine, it also meets the api rating of ci-4 for diesel engines and previous designations (the 4 in ci-4 designates that it is for a 4-stroke engine). This is called "backwards compatibility." the confusing part to people who are low-informational concerning specifications is that the new oil specs say that they are "backwards compatible" which, by law they must be, however that does not mean that the newer ones are the best to use in older equipment of pre 2007.
502 oil improver has been produced for a long time without making a chemical change. It is a balanced formulation which not only contains zddp, but also has other chemicals in the formula which contain a detergent package, just to name one. It is not recommended for use in 2007 or newer engines because it will raise the level such that it will be out of spec.
With regard to references relating to porsche & bmw - you might have guessed that practically any make or model of any vehicle has certain areas which "need help." most porsches for example have flat tappet cam engines - they also have some hard shifting problems in the manual transmissions, and swepco 201 gear oil is renowned for helping, if not eliminating those problems.
Greg mentioned that he would not use a "racing oil" in his equipment. Swepco was not formulated to be a "racing oil," but it has done very well in the high performance race cars, and in fact my hobby is 360 sprint cars which utilize flat tappet cams and usually run out at over 700 horsepower on a modified chevrolet 350 block...those engines are somewhat pricy at over $30,000.00, so these owners want to get more bang for their buck and have equipment that lasts longer. Greg's "testimonial" about using swepco 306 is typical for the people who have tried it.
IHPA has been using swepco lubricants since 2007, and after testing it on his own equipment, Jeff asked me to be the monitor for the lube section. I deliver orders to his shop practically every-other week which he uses in the shop, as well as for an extensive web order business. From the volume of products he has gone through in the last 6 years, I'm sure he has over 100 customers with the products.
Sulfonated ash is used as part of the detergent additive package and as a metal deactivator, it is true that in some applications it leaves deposits, this is why engine manufacturers who build engines like the detroit diesel 2-strokes, and engines which run on digester gas, or cng require a very low amount of it in the oils they use. Most of those would call for less than .01% sulfonated ash.
If you were to dip a dirty copper penny into a highly concentrated sulfonated ash mixture, it would come out bright and shiny, but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily good in high amounts in an engine oil.
You have to remember that lubrication chemistry is very complicated and sometimes being your own chemist is not a good idea unless you are a full fledged tribologist!
I hope I covered everything with this post.
Dick
IceFyre13th
Member
All great, except api sf is where they started reducing zddp in oils to "protect the cat".
Api se is at the levels of zddp our engines were designed to run on, sl has greatly reduced levels compared to api se, sf started the reduction due to the catalytic convertors and the feds push to protect us........(more like the greed to make more money from their investments).
So, great, the oil meets oil meets sl rating.....too bad the levels of zddp are less than the levels of se, the level that our engines were designed to run on.
Api se is at the levels of zddp our engines were designed to run on, sl has greatly reduced levels compared to api se, sf started the reduction due to the catalytic convertors and the feds push to protect us........(more like the greed to make more money from their investments).
So, great, the oil meets oil meets sl rating.....too bad the levels of zddp are less than the levels of se, the level that our engines were designed to run on.
DF Sales&Marketing
Oil Tech Moderator
Icefyre13th,
it sounds like you know a lot about engine oil.
I cannot refute your statement about se engine oils containing more zddp than sl does as I am not privy to the formulas, even at that time. But saying that what you state is correct, the point is that the question was "what engine oil can I use in my Scout engines" (paraphrased).
I've done a little research in my api specifications and found that se was warranty approved in 1972, so your time frame is correct, however, it was replaced by sf in 1980 as warranty approved (regardless of the amount of zddp) and became obsolete in 1989.
You will have to agree that not only could the zddp been changed over the years, but most of the other additives and base stocks have as well, and mostly for the good.
You cannot get se any longer, in fact you would probably have to look real hard to get sl. So my recommendation still stands that swepco 306 sl engine oil would be the best I can make. There May be others and as this is a capitalistic society, you certainly have the right to find it, and use it as you see fit. IHPA is a valued customer of mine, and a firm believer in our products, and as long as that relationship exists there is no point in further pursuing this issue. I have no issues with zddplus as I have had permission from them to do some articles in the past.
it sounds like you know a lot about engine oil.
I cannot refute your statement about se engine oils containing more zddp than sl does as I am not privy to the formulas, even at that time. But saying that what you state is correct, the point is that the question was "what engine oil can I use in my Scout engines" (paraphrased).
I've done a little research in my api specifications and found that se was warranty approved in 1972, so your time frame is correct, however, it was replaced by sf in 1980 as warranty approved (regardless of the amount of zddp) and became obsolete in 1989.
You will have to agree that not only could the zddp been changed over the years, but most of the other additives and base stocks have as well, and mostly for the good.
You cannot get se any longer, in fact you would probably have to look real hard to get sl. So my recommendation still stands that swepco 306 sl engine oil would be the best I can make. There May be others and as this is a capitalistic society, you certainly have the right to find it, and use it as you see fit. IHPA is a valued customer of mine, and a firm believer in our products, and as long as that relationship exists there is no point in further pursuing this issue. I have no issues with zddplus as I have had permission from them to do some articles in the past.
overdrivesteve
Member
So then will adding zddplus to the swepco 306 sl make it the equivalent to se? How much do you recommend for my 9 quart system to make it equivalent to se? Will that then resolve all issues/concerns and give me the best possible of all oil-protection worlds?
I admit I don't know much about oils and its hard for me to understand oils, but I've also read that by mixing identical oils but of different viscosities it's possible to extend the range. For example mixing 10w30 with 20w50 extends the range to 10w50. Actually the article said it would in reality be 5 off so in the above example the mix would result in 15w45. You comments on this too is appreciated, but especially the first paragraph questions about adding zddplus to the swepco 306. Will that help or damage the swepco oil blend?
Thank you.
Steve
DF Sales&Marketing
Oil Tech Moderator
Steve,
as I mentioned in that post, I do not know how much zddp was in the api se formulas....and again, it would depend on the blender of the oil as to how much additive they would use for their particular formulation of same. Also, since there are different quality grades of just about any additive, it really is a crap shoot to try to replicate anything without being a chemist.
I am a little skeptical about the statement that there was more zddp in se oils than there were in sl oils, but I have no proof other than in every case up until the time that the specification changed from sl to sm, the oils actually improved in quality. It was when sm came along that we saw the lower maximum levels of zddp (zinc & phosphorous) put in place because of the concern that zinc, primarily would harm and possible "take out" the catalytic converters. The epa wanted to have a minimum of 120,000 miles of life for the cats, but in all honesty cats can be damaged by things other than oil additives, and I personally know of cases were cats went many times that distance with no apparent problems.
Swepco does not recommend using any oil additives in their engine oil formulas....period. So, with that being said, you can take their position that changing the chemistry by adding zddp, stp, or any other additive can effect the quality of the oil which already has enough of everything in it, most times reducing it. If you can remember the old saying "enough is enough, already!" or "too much of a good thing is harmful."
let me assure you that 306 has a very good reputation for giving protection to engines, the zddp additive levels are higher than most so-called specialized racing oils, but to go along with that, it has a completely balanced package which work synergistically together.
Mixing weights, even with the same brand of oils is not recommended by swepco, or for that matter any other lubricant blender that I know of. It isn't just a simple mathematic equation such as the article you read suggests that will make a new, better blend. The best way to select the proper weight for your vehicle is to see what the ambient temperature range is that you need to cover and settle for a multi-weight viscosity oil to suit that range. Doing so would also eliminate seasonal oil changes.
Lubricant chemistry is very complex, and the saying that I once believed in before my 28 year career with swepco used to be "oil is oil, grease is grease" was changed to quite the opposite after less than an hour in the training school I attended in 1985. From then on, I'll go along with the company motto: "swepco lubricants, solutions to keep it running!"
hopefully this answers the questions you had, and will also at the same time be of some positive benefit to others reading this blog.
Dick
as I mentioned in that post, I do not know how much zddp was in the api se formulas....and again, it would depend on the blender of the oil as to how much additive they would use for their particular formulation of same. Also, since there are different quality grades of just about any additive, it really is a crap shoot to try to replicate anything without being a chemist.
I am a little skeptical about the statement that there was more zddp in se oils than there were in sl oils, but I have no proof other than in every case up until the time that the specification changed from sl to sm, the oils actually improved in quality. It was when sm came along that we saw the lower maximum levels of zddp (zinc & phosphorous) put in place because of the concern that zinc, primarily would harm and possible "take out" the catalytic converters. The epa wanted to have a minimum of 120,000 miles of life for the cats, but in all honesty cats can be damaged by things other than oil additives, and I personally know of cases were cats went many times that distance with no apparent problems.
Swepco does not recommend using any oil additives in their engine oil formulas....period. So, with that being said, you can take their position that changing the chemistry by adding zddp, stp, or any other additive can effect the quality of the oil which already has enough of everything in it, most times reducing it. If you can remember the old saying "enough is enough, already!" or "too much of a good thing is harmful."
let me assure you that 306 has a very good reputation for giving protection to engines, the zddp additive levels are higher than most so-called specialized racing oils, but to go along with that, it has a completely balanced package which work synergistically together.
Mixing weights, even with the same brand of oils is not recommended by swepco, or for that matter any other lubricant blender that I know of. It isn't just a simple mathematic equation such as the article you read suggests that will make a new, better blend. The best way to select the proper weight for your vehicle is to see what the ambient temperature range is that you need to cover and settle for a multi-weight viscosity oil to suit that range. Doing so would also eliminate seasonal oil changes.
Lubricant chemistry is very complex, and the saying that I once believed in before my 28 year career with swepco used to be "oil is oil, grease is grease" was changed to quite the opposite after less than an hour in the training school I attended in 1985. From then on, I'll go along with the company motto: "swepco lubricants, solutions to keep it running!"
hopefully this answers the questions you had, and will also at the same time be of some positive benefit to others reading this blog.
Dick
overdrivesteve
Member
Hi,
there is really only one last thing I need clarification on. If you had said that the zddp levels were higher than most all other oils presently specified to be used in vintage cars and heavy diesel trucks, then I would have considered the case closed. But by specifying racing oils, I want to make sure we're on the same page. My truck is a slow, low rpm, low oil pressure engine in a heavy crew cab 4x4. It's not a racing application and I would never be considering racing oils in the first place. So how does 306 compare to other oils used in vintage car and truck non-racing applications? And how does it compare to the oils used in heavy diesel truck and equipment applications? Or do they use the same 306 oil specification?
I ask this based on the following:
I don't know much about oils, but for the past few months I've been studying the heck out of oil filters and filtration. And I'm about to put a long, detailed post on this forum about all I've learned. And one of the things I've learned is that some of the very best possible oil filters we can put on our gas engines, far superior to the usual 51515 or 51452 filters, and some of the worst possible oil filters (for our engines) we could ever put on our gas engines were all originally designed for diesel engines. It just depends on the design of the filter. I'm wondering if the same could be said about oils - do vintage heavy truck and equipment diesel engines use the same 306 oil specification, or do they use some superior oil that holds up even better and consequently might be better for our vintage engines than car, especially racing car oil, or do diesels use some completely incompatible oil?
Sorry for the dumb questions, but I've never owned a heavy big rig diesel truck. I think I know the answers, but would like these points absolutely clarified.
Thank you.
Steve
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DF Sales&Marketing
Oil Tech Moderator
Steve,
sorry for the confusion, I thought you were looking for "inventing" a way for getting more zddp into an engine oil and the reference I used for "racing oil" was in response to what I thought you were looking for because that is what the current crop of "racing" oils zero in on. Don't apologize for asking questions, that is the best way to learn.
So, with that being said, and to avoid any further confusion, 306 contains more zddp than most racing oils. 306 also contains more zddp for oils up to and including the api "sl" as well as the diesel "ci-4" specifications. However, (as mentioned several times) it contains too much zinc to meet the specifications for both gasoline (sm & now sn) and diesel (cj-4), so it is not recommended for use in those engines which require those api grades.
I have several independent auto repair shops who purchased product other than engine oil, they discovered that when the le (low emission) api cj-4 diesel oils came on the scene that they were getting an unusual amount of lifter noise, even when using it in gasoline engines; the solution was to use the 306, which eliminated the noise back to normal. If you go back and read greg r's post you can see that after he switched to 306 in his scouts, it quieted them down nicely....that is a common remark from people who have not used 306 before.
When the sl/ci-4 specifications were in effect for equipment previous to 2007, 306 met the requirements for both gas and hd diesel requirements, however, as previously stated, the sm(sn)/cj-4 oils have different specifications concerning zddp limits and so for that reason they cannot be met with one formulation. Swepco makes two different oils to meet the new specifications, the "303" for gasoline service and the "308" for diesel service. According to the api specs the sm(sn) gasoline service rating has an approx. Max of 800 ppm limit and the cj-4 specs have an approx. Max of 1200 ppm.
The 306 we have been discussing in this thread is the company's recommendation for passenger car, as well as diesel specifications for equipment requiring sl (or earlier) gasoline specification and ci-4 (or earlier) for diesel specification. It is truly "backwards compatible" for older equipment, and it is a wise choice for historic car applications. I have several nascar historic cars which use 306 for that same reason (I know, there I go mentioning racing again!). Others, including myself use the 306 in older applications with great success in both gasoline and diesel applications.
I am not sure what other oil companies are supplying for historic car use, so I cannot comment on that, or the amount of zddp (zinc & phosphorous) there is in their formulas. If you can go to their websites and look for the percentage of those chemicals, you might possible be able to find what you are looking for, and to help you along with reading their specs, it will state, for example 10%, which would equate to 1,000ppm.
Capich?
Dick
sorry for the confusion, I thought you were looking for "inventing" a way for getting more zddp into an engine oil and the reference I used for "racing oil" was in response to what I thought you were looking for because that is what the current crop of "racing" oils zero in on. Don't apologize for asking questions, that is the best way to learn.
So, with that being said, and to avoid any further confusion, 306 contains more zddp than most racing oils. 306 also contains more zddp for oils up to and including the api "sl" as well as the diesel "ci-4" specifications. However, (as mentioned several times) it contains too much zinc to meet the specifications for both gasoline (sm & now sn) and diesel (cj-4), so it is not recommended for use in those engines which require those api grades.
I have several independent auto repair shops who purchased product other than engine oil, they discovered that when the le (low emission) api cj-4 diesel oils came on the scene that they were getting an unusual amount of lifter noise, even when using it in gasoline engines; the solution was to use the 306, which eliminated the noise back to normal. If you go back and read greg r's post you can see that after he switched to 306 in his scouts, it quieted them down nicely....that is a common remark from people who have not used 306 before.
When the sl/ci-4 specifications were in effect for equipment previous to 2007, 306 met the requirements for both gas and hd diesel requirements, however, as previously stated, the sm(sn)/cj-4 oils have different specifications concerning zddp limits and so for that reason they cannot be met with one formulation. Swepco makes two different oils to meet the new specifications, the "303" for gasoline service and the "308" for diesel service. According to the api specs the sm(sn) gasoline service rating has an approx. Max of 800 ppm limit and the cj-4 specs have an approx. Max of 1200 ppm.
The 306 we have been discussing in this thread is the company's recommendation for passenger car, as well as diesel specifications for equipment requiring sl (or earlier) gasoline specification and ci-4 (or earlier) for diesel specification. It is truly "backwards compatible" for older equipment, and it is a wise choice for historic car applications. I have several nascar historic cars which use 306 for that same reason (I know, there I go mentioning racing again!). Others, including myself use the 306 in older applications with great success in both gasoline and diesel applications.
I am not sure what other oil companies are supplying for historic car use, so I cannot comment on that, or the amount of zddp (zinc & phosphorous) there is in their formulas. If you can go to their websites and look for the percentage of those chemicals, you might possible be able to find what you are looking for, and to help you along with reading their specs, it will state, for example 10%, which would equate to 1,000ppm.
Capich?
Dick
IceFyre13th
Member
In a nut shell, yes I do know oils.....many years of drag racing and having a sponsor who is a big name In racing oils who taught us the product we represented helped.....we had to know what we were talking about to be effective representatives of the product.
I do not recommend racing oil for daily driving, it will probably have the level of zddp you need, but it is designed for use in racing and will not hold up for 1000's of miles as will oils designed for daily driving use. Many of the additives needed in daily driving are reduced or eliminated as most race engines will have the oil drained and changed every event.
If you change your oil every outing in your vehicle......you could use racing oil, but I would not recommend using it for more than a thousand miles between changes. It was not designed for daily use.
Current api oils do not have the level of zddp a flat Lifter cam and none Roller rocker needs. If you have roller lifters and rockers you will be fine with today's api oils. That is one of the reasons most new vehicles are using roller valve trains, as well as reduced friction for better gas mileage.
Most oil companies that sell current api specification oils will also sell oils that have higher levels of zddp, these higher level zddp oils will void the warranty of your emission system (catalytic convertor) if used in newer vehicles.
If you can find higher level zddp oil use it, 1200 ppm was the se spec, but you will be fine at 1000 ppm too. 800 ppm is the level sf dropped to, this could be to low of a level depending upon the spring pressure or rocker arm ratio the valves have.
If all you can find is today's api oil (anything newer than se), then use that with a zddp additive.
I do not recommend racing oil for daily driving, it will probably have the level of zddp you need, but it is designed for use in racing and will not hold up for 1000's of miles as will oils designed for daily driving use. Many of the additives needed in daily driving are reduced or eliminated as most race engines will have the oil drained and changed every event.
If you change your oil every outing in your vehicle......you could use racing oil, but I would not recommend using it for more than a thousand miles between changes. It was not designed for daily use.
Current api oils do not have the level of zddp a flat Lifter cam and none Roller rocker needs. If you have roller lifters and rockers you will be fine with today's api oils. That is one of the reasons most new vehicles are using roller valve trains, as well as reduced friction for better gas mileage.
Most oil companies that sell current api specification oils will also sell oils that have higher levels of zddp, these higher level zddp oils will void the warranty of your emission system (catalytic convertor) if used in newer vehicles.
If you can find higher level zddp oil use it, 1200 ppm was the se spec, but you will be fine at 1000 ppm too. 800 ppm is the level sf dropped to, this could be to low of a level depending upon the spring pressure or rocker arm ratio the valves have.
If all you can find is today's api oil (anything newer than se), then use that with a zddp additive.
overdrivesteve
Member
The last couple posts have cleared up a lot of questions.
Another unrelated question, how long can an oil last between changes, especially with a 9 quart oil pan, if only a large, very high quality synthetic filter is used, and that filter is changed often enough that the by-pass valve never opens allowing the passage of any unfiltered dirty oil? Any guesstimates possible with this type of question? In other words what are your recommended oil change intervals with 306 with this type of engine oil pan and filter set-up?
Thanks.
Steve
Another unrelated question, how long can an oil last between changes, especially with a 9 quart oil pan, if only a large, very high quality synthetic filter is used, and that filter is changed often enough that the by-pass valve never opens allowing the passage of any unfiltered dirty oil? Any guesstimates possible with this type of question? In other words what are your recommended oil change intervals with 306 with this type of engine oil pan and filter set-up?
Thanks.
Steve