ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Steve,

the recommended change interval would depend on the type of driving you do. The minimum would probably be around 5,000 miles for city driving and it can go up from there. I change the oil on my wife's car at 5,000 miles because she doesn't do any highway driving (except when I drive it sometimes), and in my trailblazer 5.3 liter every 10,000 miles. 306 has a high detergency in it's additive package, so if you switch over to it, and notice that your oil consumption is going up, it is an indication that it is cleaning out the sludge and varnish in the engine, especially around the rings. Once they re-seat, which could take as many as 3 normal oil changes, it should go back to where it was, and most often than not, actually be lower than what it was before.

Have a great day!

Dick
 
swepco said:
steve,

the recommended change interval would depend on the type of driving you do. The minimum would probably be around 5,000 miles for city driving and it can go up from there. I change the oil on my wife's car at 5,000 miles because she doesn't do any highway driving (except when I drive it sometimes), and in my trailblazer 5.3 liter every 10,000 miles. 306 has a high detergency in it's additive package, so if you switch over to it, and notice that your oil consumption is going up, it is an indication that it is cleaning out the sludge and varnish in the engine, especially around the rings. Once they re-seat, which could take as many as 3 normal oil changes, it should go back to where it was, and most often than not, actually be lower than what it was before.

Have a great day!

Dick
Click to expand...

Wow, wasn't expecting that response. Never before had a vehicle I could go more than 3 to 4000 miles before the oil looked so very dirty I wanted to change it. But then again I always used cheap oil and fram filters.

But now another question. I had a bottle of 502 engine oil improver I bought about 2 months ago when I first got possession of my truck. I was debating if I wanted to return it and get the regular 306 oil or just use it. Decided regardless of my next oil change, to just dump it in the oil that's presently in the engine today. But now wondering - did this have a shelf life? And does 306 have a recommended shelf life? I ask because I didn't think to shake it. It doesn't say to shake it in the directions. But after pouring the 502 into the engine it looked like there was a fine layer of gray sludge in the bottom of the 502 bottle. And if this additive that settled out was thick enough to see, then wouldn't it be thick enough to be filtered out by any good oil filter?

So will 306 oil also separate in the engine's oil pan if it sits for weeks or months between engine starts? My truck is not a daily driver. And until I finish working on it, there will be long stretches of time when it is not started at all.

Thanks.
Steve
 
Hi again steve,

it would seem that some of the micronized moly might have fallen out of suspension and the "residue" you saw in the bottle was what it is. If you want to pour a little of your other oil into the bottle and shake it vigorously, it might suspend into the oil, then you can add it to the crankcase. Usually when this happens it is very miniscule and does not mean that the product has deteriorated. I don't know why the instructions do not state to shake before using.

Actually, you did a good thing if you plan on changing over to 306 later because the detergency factor in the 502 will give it a head start on cleaning the sludge and varnish (if there is any). The 502 additive package will not be filtered out of the oil. If you are using a very low micron filter, such as a "0" micron filter additives May be filtered out of any oil. During production, we use a 10 micron filter, I'm told that most other oil producers use a 40 micron filter.

For clarification purposes, the 306 engine oil formulation is completely different than that of the 502. Nothing will settle out of suspension in the 306. "502" is not part of the additive package of "306."

shelf life can vary on products, but a very safe estimate would be 5 years on lubrication products. There was a long "back & forth" on this subject several posts back that you might want to pull up. Other companies have stated that there is "no shelf life" others have said "10 years," and I have no information about who is right or wrong....swepco is very conservative and that is the only reason for having anything said about shelf life at all.

Until next time???
Dick
 
Hi,
ok, I guess in reality then shelf life doesn't matter to me if it's more than a year.

The spin-on oil filter I use is an oversized full-flow synthetic media filter. It has a 5 micron nominal and 20 micron absolute filtration media. I hope that's ok with the 306 oil?

Any idea what happens to old gear oil? Hopefully it doesn't turn into acid. About 35 years ago I acquired a small 3-speed auxiliary transmission (hence my name, overdrivesteve). It is new, with zero miles of use. I knew it would be awhile before I got around to using it. (but never thought it would be 35). So at the time to preserve it internally, I filled it almost completely full of new gear oil before storage. Don't know if that was the best thing to do, but I was young, and it's done. I plan to eventually install this auxiliary between my trans and transfer case in my truck. Assuming the oil is still liquid and not syrup or solidified, anything special (other than change the oil) I should do to this auxiliary gear box before I put it into service? It has been indoors all this time.
Thanks.
Steve
 
Last edited:
Steve,

wow, holding on to that gearbox for 35 years is amazing!

You probably did alright by filling it with gear oil, however even gear oils can age, and depending on the quality can certainly oxidize, especially if you were not able to completely seal off all areas where air can enter.

Suggest that you make a close inspection, especially around the areas where the surface of the oil meets the metal, this would include gears and bearings. You May not be able to do that, but if you can, you can check for any oxidation residue or pitting. If that looks ok, then it would probably be a good idea to flush it out with a commercial product and inspect it again, maybe a little closer if possible.

Gear oil does not contain detergent additives, contrary to what a lot of people might think. The main additives in gear oil are ep (extreme pressure), some have anti-wear and some have limited slip additives as well. In your case, it probably would not have made any difference as to the weight oil you put in 35 years ago.

The filter you mentioned should be just fine with the 306 engine oil.

I'm just wondering what your next question will be......

Dick
 
Hi,

well, you don't need to wonder any longer... ;-)
here's my next set of questions. First, can engine oils turn acidic over time if not used much?

I'm just starting to research coolant filters and other anti-freeze related issues. And one of the first things I noticed is that many cooling system filters come with an impregnated slow-release chemical to combat acid corrosion.

So my question is not about oil in the bottle, but oil in the engine that might not get more than a few minutes of running engine use every few weeks or so while the truck is undergoing restoration work. So is it possible for the oil to turn bad or acidic before it appears dirty? And can that acidic level be tested with ph papers? And what should be the ph reading or range of ph for 306 oil?

Also, as there are long times between starting the engine, how long will the film of oil remain on the cam shaft etc so I'm not starting the engine dry? And a related question, how often must I start the engine to keep parts and seals good?

And what are your recommendations on an engine pre-luber - is it recommended, and if so, at what interval between engine starts does it become recommended? And if recommended, do you favor the canister types where the engine pressurizes / fills a canister with oil that is released immediately before the next engine start, or the small 12 volt electric motor type?
And doesn't a pre-luber momentarily pressurize the "wrong" side of the engine where the sudden burst of oil pressure will be also applying oil pressure to the wrong side of the oil filter, causing it to back-flush whatever crud its caught back into the engine's oil pump and possibly oil pan? Or do the benefits of pre-lubbing outweigh the potential damage it could be doing to the engine's oil pump?

Anyone here have any experience with any pre-luber?

Thanks.

Steve
 
Last edited:
On pre lubing engine after it sits a while,unplug coil ,an then spin it over a few times till the oil pressure comes up,then plug coil back in an start it ? Jeff
 
Prolly 6 month's ? 4 ? It's just your preference ? If you let it sit for 2 month's,an get in an hit the key,it's not gonna start up rite away anyway's,gas will drain back,so if the gauge goes up before it fires,then you'd be ok ,... Jeff
 
Jeff campbell said:
prolly 6 month's ? 4 ? It's just your preference ? If you let it sit for 2 month's,an get in an hit the key,it's not gonna start up rite away anyway's,gas will drain back,so if the gauge goes up before it fires,then you'd be ok ,... Jeff
Click to expand...

Ok, thanks.
In the past I've always used a shot of starting fluid to save the starter motor... Perhaps not a good idea? But now it starts on the first revolution if it sits 2 weeks or less. And as I get more things done on the truck, I am beginning to start it more often. But it will sit awhile again when I start repair on the less critical things, such as the leaky fuel pump, 40 year old front motor mounts, double fan belt conversion, etc.

Steve
 
If no oil film is present, then rotation is rotation whether it be from the starter motor, by hand with a breaker bar or as a product of internal combustion. It all presents the same inherent damage potential. There's nothing to be gained by starter cranking with the coil wire unhooked in that case. Might as well just fire it up.
 
so is it possible for the oil to turn bad or acidic before it appears dirty? And can that acidic level be tested with ph papers?
Click to expand...

I say it can. The largest contributor to oil contamination is cylinder/piston blow by. From just running the motor a few minutes to short trips to the store can store up lots of unburnt fuel and combustion products with water in the oil. However if the oil is allowed to get hot enough by the engine being at operating temperature with a functioning thermostat, and the crankcase ventilation system is working, much of the water and contaminates are vaporized off and then it is not a big problem for the oil additives to do their job and protect the engine.

Key to this is a functioning pcv system. A road draft tube system works pretty good at speeds above 25 to 35 mph. If you're just hopping around and stop 'n go driving with a draft tube equipped engine; you can bet the contaminates are piling up in the oil. Two things that help, maybe 3, are frequent oil changes or a weekly drive above 40mph for 1/2 hour or so. The 3rd thing one can do is convert a draft tube system to an open or a closed pcv valved system. Yep, git rid of that draft tube and put a pcv valve in 'er.

The neat thing about a pcv valve is it is working any time the engine is running and suck'in out that nasty stuff regardless of road or engine speed.

For my low yearly mileage rigs, I change the oil at least once a year regardless of the miles logged. For the regularly driven ones, thanks to swepco I can change at about 5k miles and all pressures are good and no funny noises.

I don't know how the ph papers would work with oil. I do use them for checking coolant time to time. Definitely want to try them on new oil 1st and note any color change on subsequent testing.

As far as dry starts go, I've done well starter spinning with all spark plugs out and the throttle wide open and a shot or two oil in each cylinder. Less load on the bearings when there's no compression. Pre-lube is the best way to go. Your pre-lube gizmo seems pretty neat. I would go for the electric option as there's no tell'in how long the stored pressure can hold. But then again most of these engines are probably older than you and are still doing alright and you know there had to be long periods of setting.
 
Last edited:
Greg said it all and is precisely right in his reply:

"the largest contributor to oil contamination is cylinder/piston blow by. From just running the motor a few minutes to short trips to the store can store up lots of unburnt fuel and combustion products with water in the oil. However if the oil is allowed to get hot enough by the engine being at operating temperature with a functioning thermostat, and the crankcase ventilation system is working, much of the water and contaminates are vaporized off and then it is not a big problem for the oil additives to do their job and protect the engine."

take into consideration that engine oil has an additive level known as having an "alkaline reserve" in the tbn which is the degree of protection to combat acid in the oil. When blowby occurs, fuel is present, and finds it's way to the crankcase where it mixes with the oil. In order to produce acid, water must be present with the fuel, it depends on the quality of the "anti-acid" as well as being in sufficient quantity that determines how much acid is in the oil.

Generally under normal driving circumstances, the water evaporates and is harmless, but in the case of rarely running the engine, everything is different, and the longer it sits, the worse it gets. Acid numbers and tbn numbers are usually listed on good oil analysis reports, I am not aware of a ph strip that is used, but maybe someone else is. Usually, anything over about 4.0 (+ - )in the mgkoh/g method of measuring for acid would be considered as normal, but it could go higher, if continued without maintenance. Reporting the acid number, or the tbn (total base number) is shown on reports for the benefit of whether or not the oil should be changed.

With the new restrictions on sulfur in fuels, we do not see as much acid in the oils as we used to. It is probably more noted in diesel engines than in gasoline engines at this time.

Steve, I can appreciate your anxiety, but I really think you are making a mountain out of a molehill! The simplest solution without testing is to fire up the engine at least monthly and let it run until it reaches normal operating temperature, then about another 15 - 20 minutes. That will be enough time for the engine to cook off any water that might have condensed in the engine, which will greatly reduce the incidence of acid formation.

As far as using starting fluid....be very careful doing so, if too much is used, you can seriously damage the engine! It has been reported that too much starting fluid results in such a powerful detonation that it can actually bend valves, or worse. Starting fluid is not one of those items that a little is good, but a lot is better!

Better quality oil, such as swepco's leaves a film of oil in the engine which provides protection against dry start ups. The use of a pre-luber is not necessary with better quality oil. I had a situation a few years ago when a customer had an old engine which he was running in a race car (yes, here we go racing again!) and built a new engine for the car. The old engine sat in the back of the shop for 8 years and he went back to it to take something off, and after removing the valve cover discovered that there was a nice coating of oil over everything inside!

Hopefully, this will cover the concerns you have.

Dick
 
Been a long time since this was posted, but there is a phenomenal amount of good information here.

I would like to make a comment about getting lubrication where it needs to be, a pre-lube if you will, in an engine that has been sitting for a long time. As scoutboy said, pulling the coil wire and cranking the engine puts much of the same damaging load on the engine as would just starting it.

There is another way. Nearly all the damaging bearing load on the engine is due to the compression stroke in the cycle of the engine. That compression loading is still there if the engine is turned by the starter with the coil pulled.

The way is to pull the spark plugs so there is no compression load driving the rod bearing hard against the journal. Most engines with the plugs pulled can be turned well enough with the starter to get oil everywhere it needs to be and show pressure on the gauge.

Then reinstall the plugs and start it up.
 
Last edited:
Bruce,

I'm glad to see that people, such as yourself go into the archives to look up technical information. You are correct, the posts on this subject went for quite some time.

Your information about reducing the compression was good, and for further information on the subject swepco 306 engine oil has the great characteristic of remaining "wet", I've seen that in engines which have sat for huge periods of time. 306 is a great all-around product with regard to lubrication, and also longevity for equipment....you can also use it as a "break-in" oil for rebuilt engines because of the high zinc content, and it does not have to be drained out right away at that!

Dick floryanowich
df sales & marketing
 
Much of my experience also comes from years of working with people installing automotive engines in homebuilt aircraft. I have helped with many projects and the overhaul of aircraft engines. This method of pre-lube is common with new aircraft engines (lycomings and continentals). Certainly they are assembled with lubrication, but the engines are always spun with either manually pulling the prop through three or four dozen times, or spinning it with the starter, until oil pressure is evident on the gauge. Then the plugs are installed and the engine started.

I also built and raced fiat 600 engines, an exercise in futility. But I learned a lot about lubrication and lack there of!
 
I see my post had been deleted. So sorry! I just realized I was recommending what I guess is a competing product not talked about previously in this forum. I was trying to add value to the discussion. I did not realize IH parts was selling oil. Again, I apologize.

Having read previous posts, I have a suggestion for the swepco rep. Api sf had less zddp than se, and it went down in ppm from there. I might have considered swepco earlier, but swepco's website does not mention anything about zinc or phosphorous compounds at all, (although the moly compound could be a seller). Swepco does not mention it on their advertising pages, nor in their english data sheets for any of their oils. Furthermore, swepco does not mention a non-detergent break-in oil (with sd or se formula) separate from a detergent oil for normal use. I have no doubt swepco is a good product, perhaps even superior in some ways to se oil formulas from the 70's or sf from the 80's. But like swepco, lots of oils on the auto parts shelves also have on-line website ads saying they are good for "pre-1995" and "older vehicles". In fact, se oil formulation May ruin modern catalytic converters, but it was the spec for my '79 scouts even though that was the first year scouts were fully smogged, and necessary for "flat tappet" cams.

I would suggest that if swepco 306 is a proper oil for solid lifter cams (one non-detergent for break-in and one detergent for normal running?), swepco could sell a lot more to the other older "flat tappet" car folks, not just for old IH trucks. Just state the pertinent specs in the swepco website. From the ppm stated in a previous post here, 306 has less zinc and phos than se, maybe more similar to sf or later. Bottom line, I May consider swepco (after break-in) if they include the appropriate specs in their website, ads and data sheets, and if solid lifter camshaft suppliers will endorse a swepco product. The product I had mentioned in my deleted post is endorsed by many of the camshaft suppliers (isky, crane, crower, schneider, howard, cam motion, koerner) because it has proper amount of zddp for solid lifters, comes both in break-in and normal formulas, and is equivalent to the old api se in zddp. This is a great forum, and I don't want to misguide anyone. Please comment on if/where I'm wrong?
 
Swepco started out in business in 1933, during the great depression, it was a horrible time to start a new business, but they saw the need for products which were higher quality and gave back greater rewards to the customer in the way of protection and reducing lubricant related expenses. From that time they have grown to be an International manufacturing and sales company selling to customers in over 80 countries around the world.

With that short intro, let me also add that a company with such a stellar record would not have lasted very long if they were selling "snake oil."

whether or not se or sf had more zinc is of little consequence, I am not privy to that information, however I do know that our product, the 306, had higher zinc and phosphorous levels than the other oils at the same time, and now that sn has a low maximum zinc level of approx. 800 ppm, we needed to stay with 306 to help those who wanted to get more zinc for those older (than 2007) engines. Consequently we did not change the formula for 306 which has 1600ppm of zinc and 1200ppm of phosphorous...other additives in the oil are also built to work synergistically with those levels to insure that one is not going to be out of balance, which could also cause problems.

The one thing about swepco is that they have never advertised, the sales they enjoy is from a well trained group of professionals who can give the proper recommendations for not only engines, but also industrial accounts as well. You will not find the figures for any additives in the brochures, or in the msds sheets as that is considered proprietary. They are really not interested in competing with the companies who are making their own "break-in" product, as generally speaking it does not take very much in the way of exotic tribology to achieve and would not bring in enough sales to warrant manufacturing.

Swepco has never manufactured a "break-in" oil, and probably never will. I have engine builders who use our high friction modified, high detergent 306 when breaking in an engine and have never had problems with cams or for that matter anything else going south. Of course, cams must be pre-lubed on assembly to prevent dry start up before the oil can get to it. There are many good quality cam pre-lubes on the market, and once again, we will not get into that line because of the same reasons mentioned above.

I was having a conversation with one of my engine builder customers not too long ago, and the subject of "break-in" oil was discussed. He told me that if a good engine builder put together a quality product, with quality parts, labor and lubricant, there is no reason to have to drain the "break-in" oil after what a lot of the other companies suggest doing (could vary anywhere from 1 hour to 50 miles or maybe a little more). He went on to say that any engine builder worth his salt would not have metal particles or dirt in the engine when it was built. I asked about the spec that has gone around for years to use a 30wt non-detergent oil, and he scoffed at that stating that it is not necessary when using swepco 306 in the multi-grade formulas. I respect his opinion as he has been an engine builder, and inventor for close to 50 years.

The product you were recommending (telling people to use) is very popular in the industry. I have nothing personal against them, however we have been up against them, as well as other "newbies" on the block who have done a terrific job in advertising, and cannot find where the bottom line does better, and usually theirs is anywhere from $4.00 to $8.00 per quart more for their products.

IHPA has purchased and recommended swepco products since January 2007. The forum section is provided as informational for primarily use in IH's, in which most of the original oem recommendations call for obsolete products. However, this is a capitalistic society, and anyone can use what they feel is best for themselves, but we have a rather dim view of someone trying to promote product(s) to everyone reading the forum to switch to something else because they "like it better", or because it "does a good job for them." we have a great track record and relationship with IHPA, and plan on keeping it that way.
 
Last edited:
Hey guys,
a lot of great info here but I didn't see anything on why you run certain grades of the stuff (10w30, 15w40 and 20w50).

So what grade of swepco would you recommend for my Scout?

It's a '77 with a 304, 727, 33 mtrs and 3.73s. I live in massachusetts where average temp might be 80 degrees when I use it in the summer and right around sea level. It is a summer truck only and does little to no towing (5k boat twice a year for about 40 miles total). I run it on the highway quite a bit tacking around 2900 rpm and I do maybe 4k miles a year.
Thanks,
 
As a customer I would say the 15-40 should fit your bill perfectly. With oregon weather similar to your stated conditions when I use mine, it's been perfect for me. Occasionally I use it in the snow and on cold mornings it cranks just fine at 10 below.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top