Scout II Ignition issues

Ok. Well now you can pop the distributor cap off for a look at the module. I don't really know of any other ways to test it beyond what you've already done. The coil is good but you're not getting spark at the plugs. The only other items in play at that point are the cap, rotor, plug wires, and spark plugs themselves. Even if one spark plug was dead, that wouldn't prevent the engine from starting and running well enough that you might not even realize you were down a cylinder. I've seen a 304 running with three dead spark plugs before. Not well by any means, but it was running. So, you see where I'm headed with this line of thinking. I suspect the module has failed either because it was a faulty product or because of an operator accident.

I've heard it mentioned that these units will display some type of discoloration if the failure was due to overheating caused by leaving the key on for too long with the engine not running as a clue for the manufacturer in case of a warranty claim. Do you see anything that looks visibly off with it? You May actually have to remove it from the distributor and look at the underside.

This is a sour development for sure. Especially since I was one of the folks advising you to go with the pertronix. Thousands of people have upgraded their ignition systems with these devices, and most I'd wager are still quite happy with them. Otherwise, it stands to reason that the company would be out of business by now. I have read elsewhere of some issues in the past with early pertronix failures such as this. The later or latest version supposedly has an override feature that is designed to prevent damage if the key is left on for too long non-running. I don't know if this is true or not. Its a shame that pertronix would still readily sell a product that can be so easily ruined by accident, if that is what has happened in your case.

Without seeing the instructions or packaging myself, I can't speak to whether or not there is some big, bold warning in print about not leaving the key on for too long. If there isn't one, there sure as hell should be. That said, leaving the key on without the engine running is not a good idea except while doing very quick electrical tests. That's why I harped on you time and again whenever I asked you to perform a test with the key on, to do it quickly and shut the key back off. This goes for pretty much all ignition systems across the board from old school breaker points, to gold boxes, to points eliminator modules. I understand that no one is born with this knowledge and sometimes it takes a painful lesson to bring it home. Accidents happen very easily too, even when a vehicle owner knows better than to leave the key on. Sometimes their friends, spouses, or kids don't have that knowledge.
 
The module looks like it did when I bought it. No discoloration or anything. But I just can't be sure that I left the key on with the pertronix. But regardless, it isn't giving spark. I apoligize for my stupidity if it indeed was my fault but the only thing that matters to me right now is getting this thing running as my minnesota winter is coming quickly and I sadly do not have a heated garage. I don't know really what pertronix could do for me since the only proof of purchase I could supply would be an online receipt from IH only. Not sure of where to proceed. Don't really want to return it to IH only because if it was my fault it would be wrong of me to return it. But I must replace it very soon.
 
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You've got a lot of character for someone your age. That's rare. Somebody raised you right. Here's what I'd do man. Give Jeff at ihon a call when you can. I know him personally. He's a very fair-minded guy and customer service is his lifeblood. Lay your situation out to him and even refer him to this thread if he wants more background. See what he says. You've got nothing to lose by doing so. I'm betting since he sells them, he might just know a little more about the particulars than you or I. Maybe you left the key on and maybe you didn't. Maybe it just failed because it was a lemon part. If there's no visual evidence that the unit overheated, you have that in your favor.

One more thing I meant to say earlier but forgot, even if I had it to do all over again, I'd still make the same recommendation in so far as going with a pertronix over a new gold box module. Easy for me to say when it isn't my money being spent, I know. The dollar figure for each is roughly the same. Gold box modules can fail just as suddenly, plus they're ancient technology. This is just rotten luck, no two ways about it.
 
Thanks scoutboy, I try to be a decent kid. I'll let you know how the call goes and if it doesn't work out, I'll just replace it and get over it. Thanks again for all of your help
 
Oh, and one more thing. Don't lose sleep beating yourself up about this. Even if you are directly responsible for this module failing...and that seems to me like it would be quite difficult to prove, it certainly wasn't out of wonton stupidity or abuse. Ignorance perhaps, but that's curable through knowledge and understanding. Stupidity is permanent until death. There's nothing for you to apologize for here.

As a consumer shelling out your hard earned bucks in good faith for a product, you have every right to expect a certain amount of satisfaction from that product. If the product fails to meet those expectations, especially in such a short time frame, you should be entitled to some level of redress. Now, if the failure was the result of the consumer's willful abuse or blatant disregard for clearly stated warnings and instructions, obviously that's a different story.

You're welcome for my help, such as its been in this case. I give myself a c- grade overall. Prof. Mayben will probably fail my ass back to kiddygarten once he navigates through this twisty-turny saga.
 
Got my pertronix back today and installed it. Charged the battery, cranked it over and.....nothing. Apparently in my frustration, I left the key on for a couple hours. Awesome. Despite my stupidity, I do have a job and I suppose I can shell out the money for the pertronix iii to make it idiot proof from me. I feel incredibly stupid but I suppose this is how I must learn. Aside from that, I'm confused as to why it didn't start. Definitely had fuel, and battery fully charged. I did get some sparks from the positive lead of the battery, and we just got out first snow here so it is cold. I think now is when I need to decide if this project is going to work out or if it will cause to me to hemorrhage my finite assets. I can't bear to get rid of the Scout but I also don't wanna go broke, as I have to buy another car in addition to keeping my motorcycle going. I can allot about $1000 more to this before I cap out. Need an opinion on this big time. Thanks
 
I believe you've encountered more difficulty in getting your engine to start reliably than most new owners do. That's no slight against you, just an observation. No doubt this is a frustrating and discouraging situation. What continues to make things so challenging is the amount of variables involved every time you attempt to start it up.

Successful diagnosis requires methodical elimination of potential causes until the primary one is isolated. From day one we've known your carb is in rough shape. No doubt this has some impact every time you try to start the engine. Is sufficient fuel entering the combustion chamber? Is there too much fuel present?

Then there was no spark due to a failed gold box, followed by no spark due to an apparently failed p-tron. Now has the replacement p-tron been damaged in the same manner? Tests need to be done just as before to see if it is capable of generating a spark.

Why didn't it start this time with a brand new p-tron hooked up? I don't know. You say there was fuel present. Could there have been too much? Have the spark plugs been fuel fouled from so many failed attempts? The plugs should probably be pulled and examined one at a time.

I want to see you succeed with this Scout. For your sake and for mine. Clearly you have a passion for this rig. Your available budget is sufficient to make some nice upgrades and repairs. Naturally it would be great if you could earmark a large portion of that amount for things that haven't been discussed yet like brakes, tires, steering etc.

Somehow you've got to reach the point where the ignition system is no longer a question Mark. The p-tron was supposed to accomplish this, but things haven't worked out on that front. I wish I could be on the scene helping you work through this, not that things would necessarily be any better than they are now. There's an answer to this riddle. Finding it is the trick.
 
Alright I'm ready to tackle this issue. So the only thing that is bringing this system down is either the plugs, the distributor, or my toasted p tron. The plugs are fouled but not over-excessively. I have no idea how the distributor is working. Should I proceed by replacing the pertronix and seeing what that will do for me? Before I can possibly worry about the carburetor issue the spark must be addressed. Also, not to invade your privacy but would it be more beneficial to do this over private messaging on the forum? I feel like this post is getting to lengthy and spam like. Thanks again
 
First step...determine whether the p-tron is capable of throwing a spark. This time, remove a plug boot from any spark plug, push the boot back a little to expose the brass contact inside and hold it roughly a quarter inch away from a metal surface while the starter is cranked briefly. This will eliminate a possibly fouled spark plug from the testing equation. If the module is good, the spark will jump the gap. If it does, I'd stop there and focus next on either servicing or replacing the carb before making any further attempts to start the engine. The carb is way out of tune, so the potential for fouling brand new spark plugs and/or damaging pricey modules during failed start attempts is pretty high.

Yeah, this thread has gotten long-winded, but some other member(s) May receive benefit from the outcome in the future. Also, some other member(s) May wish to chime in with advice on how to proceed. Private messaging precludes either from happening.
 
I left the key on more than once with my ignitor I. Only fried it once though. Last time it only took 20 minutes to cause a cloud of orange toxic smoke. It took out the pertronix flame thrower coil too. Keep the faith.

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Now I know what I could've done to my ignition..yikes. But thanks for the encouragement. Checked for spark and nothing. Also tried the timing light. I figured as much and I think I ought to replace it with a iii to alleviate this issue from ever happening again. Now about this carb, I've rebuilt quite a few motorcycle, lawn mower, chainsaw, and many other carbs. Maybe I'm overconfident, but I really want to rebuild this carb myself. I have plenty of money to have it done, but I'd prefer to get the experience so I know how in the future. But if you think it's more worth it to get it done by IH only, I'm totally content with that. Is there any way for me to check for distributor issues? I'd like to eliminate that variable from the no spark situation. Thanks
 
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I think its great that you want to try rebuilding he carb yourself. If you take your time and follow the instructions carefully...I think there's even a pretty good write-up on 2210 overhaul in the carb tech section, it should come out alright for you. Its bound to be in better shape when you finish than its in now. I've never serviced a distributor before. I know the important items include shaft end play, which is checked with the distributor removed from the engine, the mechanical advance mechanism, and the vacuum advance canister. None of these items being out of spec would prevent the engine from starting and running, but they would certainly hinder performance. The vac advance canister can be checked with a mighty vac. You apply suction to the nipple on the canister. If the vacuum holds, the unit is good. As for the mechanical advance, its basically the metal plates and springs underneath where the module rests. Just verify that the springs are in place, and the plates aren't stuck. Lube them if necessary.
 
Ihon sells the correct kit through the website. If you search local to you, these are the kits you want to look for:

either the wells ck 540a or the hygrade p/n 928c. When you disassemble, try not to destroy the old gaskets and hang onto them for comparison with the ones that come in the kit.
 
Just tossed in new ignitor iii ignition module and still no start. Starter cranks but has a pattern of slowing way down for a second at 4 or 5 second intervals continiously.
 
Hey, you're back! I'm glad you haven't given up. I want this darn engine of yours to fire up as bad if not worse than you do. I seem to recall at one point you were unable to lock down the distributor to prevent it from being rotated by hand inadvertently. Is that still the case? The erratic starter cranking speed you report can easily be a result of the timing being out of whack. Do you suppose you might have rotated it inadvertently over the course of swapping one module for another? If you're confident that isn't the case, then you're looking at a current supply problem. Was the battery condition verified before you started cranking?
 
Oh no, don't worry I wont be giving up on this. If you mean verified as in voltage I fully charged it and the erratic cranking still happened with the battery charger on it. When the battery is fulled charged it still does it, but its more of just a hiccup but steadily gets worse as the battery loses juice. However, I just pulled the boot off one plug and did see a spark when I tested it. Couldn't replicate it, but that was probably due to the dying battery. So we are getting somewhere. And I just tried it at many different timing positions, but nothing. And also, the parking brake light dips down with the starter, seemingly confirming the current supply issue.
 
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