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Proper Clutch Identification

Richard

Member
well: here goes

got the 3sp/chain drive t/c off,cleaned all part (disk, t/o sleeve/bearing, pressure plate, flywheel). Good news: the snout of both the 3spd and 4spd are the same length (approx 3.5 inches). I can use existing t/o bearing.

Pressure plate looks very clean (can still see machining swirls), disk look barely used.

Questions:
#1 - what would you use on surface of flywheel, pressure to clean? is brake cleaner sufficient?
#2 - is there any way to "clean/freshen up" disk?
#3 - on the disk, there are no markings that tell me which side goes towards engine. Picture attached shows one side with a slightly more protruding hub/nose. I don't want to screw this up.

Also found where my rear of engine leak was coming from! Stupid me for not checking! when I had the engine rebuilt 15 yrs ago, the shop that did the work put the rear main seal in backwards, and the flywheel bolts did not have any type of sealer on the threads. When I took one/two of the flywheel bolts off, oil came seeping through the bolt hole.

Anyway, if possible, would like to get some quick replies on this post. It is 7:30 a.m. here and I would like to get this s.o.b. done today. By the way, this 4 speed weights a ton! DAMN! it's heavy.
 

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Richard

Member
also:

The “odd piece” was behind the rear main seal when I removed it yesterday. Any idea what it is, and I don’t see it in my shop manual. It is cardboard material.

The clutch disk question: one side has a larger spline protrusion. Does this side go towards engine? Dumb me, I didn’t keep track when I took it out yesterday.

Thanks for the assistance.
 

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Robert Kenney

Super Moderator
The larger protrusion, be it from the spline hub or the entire center section, goes towards the pressure plate.\

As for the paper board ring.... I have no idea. I guess it could be some type of oil slinger ring.
 

ihpartsjeff

Administrator & Owner
Staff member
The paper ring is a spacer for the rear main seal so that the seal rides on a fresh spot on the crankshaft. I never use them.
 

Hondo

Member
Need it installed so that the springs in the center of the disk are furthest from the bolts that mount the flywheel to the crankshaft. Mine was installed backwards by the PO, and the clutch disk started eating away at the flywheel mounting bolt heads. Also make sure the bolts that mount the pressure plate do not bottom out before the pressure plate is fully seated on the flywheel. If the flywheel has been turned multiple times this can happen and you need to add extra washers/lock washers or you will get some very annoying clutch noises. Can also get some shorter bolts. Just dug up some pictures, and I have a different style clutch disc, so someone else may have a better answer. That's the way mine came out, and it was ass backwards.
 

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Richard

Member
almost done!!!!! Damn- that T-19 and D 20 was heavy!!!

I am reading that the recommended gear oil is :

Use GL-4 or GL-3 ONLY. Must NOT use GL-5 or GL-4/GL-5 with bronze synchromesh manual transmission. Manual synchromeshed transmission oil is included here for information only

Can I get a "reasoning" for not using GL-5? I am reading where GL-5 is a more durable gear oil. No? will GL-5 destroy the synchos, or cause early wear?

Thanks>
 

Hondo

Member
The GL5 most likely has sulfur in it which attacks the bronze parts.The T19 weighs in at 160 and the Dana 20 at around 60. I run Redline MT 90 in both. If you have any leaks they will tend to leak more because it's thinner. Nowadays it doesn't cost much more than the standard 90 weight.
 

Richard

Member
Ok, the good:

got everything in lined up, bolted down. Started the 196 with clutch pedal full depressed (good sign), figured out how the 4 spd shifter went into the top and "presto", good to go. everything shifts just fine (had to get used to 4 speeds vs. the 3 speed that I had for 15 yrs). Transfer case engages just fine, all is good.

the bad:

I have what sounds like either throw out bearing failure, or end of snout "chatter". The T/O bearing is well greased (zirk fitting) and when I had it out when changing trannies, it seemed fine. There was no looseness or wobble at all.

The sound I get is not when standing still when engaging any of the 4 speeds, it only shows up when moving. when shifting from one gear to the next, I hear this "rattle", then it goes away when clutch is released.

Is it possible that the T/O bearing/collar is too short for the snout? since I have the console cover off when driving, I can really hear it, but I will confess that I recall hearing the same noise when I had to 3 spd in, only I didn't think about it (and the console cover was on, so not as noticeable).

When I had the T/O bearing/sleeve off to clean, it had literally no wear on "contact to fork" points/locations, and the fork itself appeared just as nice.

Bottom line: I am guessing that if is a collar that is too short, at some point, will it fall off the end of the snout? I will leave it alone for right now - the Scout drives just fine.

Random thought: since the snout and sleeve are stationary, someone could invent/design a "bolt on" sleeve (maybe 1.5") to attach to the end of the actual sleeve to eliminate this issue. I would hate to have to remove this 220 lb. dead weight again! It was painful the first time around.

I did not think to measure the T/O bearing/sleeve when it was out since it was the original one. I will take pix and post later today.

Damn! working on this sled is some real good mental therapy!
 

Richard

Member
well, and afterthought:

to eliminate the obvious, what is the longest T/O bearing/sleeve available? I will measure mine and post. :yikes:
 

Hondo

Member
See if you have an access cover on the bottom of the bell housing. Both my 75 with a 258, and my 72 with a 345 have them. After taking it off you should be able to see what is going on with the throw out bearing, and just about everything else in there. Also make sure that the pressure plate is fully seated against the flywheel. Sounds like it has something to do with your clutch linkage, pressure plate, or pilot bearing. Also make sure you transmission and motor mounts are in decent shape. Have someone push the clutch pedal in and out while you are underneath observing things (you can have the engine running, but block the wheels, make sure it's someone you trust, and don't put it in gear).
 
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Richard

Member
Well:

attached are pix of the sleeve & T/O bearing.

The two attached pix show the clutch sleeve in fully depressed view and fully released. The yellow mark shows how long the “snout” is when clutch peddle is fully depressed. Since the snout is 3.5 inches, I marked (blue mark) where it is when clutch is fully pressed in. Also, the mark in red shows the amount of travel (clutch released/clutch fully depressed) It’s about ½ travel. (Am I making sense?) The other pix shows sleeve fully released and where the snout would measure to (blue).

I doubt that the sleeve will fall off (there’s at least 1.5 inches of sleeve on the snout when fully depressed), and as I mentioned before, the noise (rattle) was something I would hear with the 3 speed. I just never paid it any attention. Based on previous comments, I thought that there might be only about ½ inch or less of sleeve to play with. So, I am going to leave it alone. Unless it is a safety issue that I need to address.

Also, if you look at the clutch fork “tangs” (where the fork links to sleeve), they seem in very good shape. Almost not wear. I will let it go.

(that, and I‘m getting too old to be doing this kind of stuff! HAH!)
 

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superc_1

Member
Richard
Did you ever find the problem? I'm having the same problem myself? From your last picture I have the exact same set-up. What vehicle is that out of? What style clutch is yours?
 

Richard

Member
Hi there. I have a 1977 SII with a 196 4cyl. I changed from a 3 sp stick/chain transfer case to the T-19 and D20 transfer case.

the problem was/is that the snout the sleeve/T-O bearing ride on is a bit short, so you will get a bit of "rattle" when depressing the clutch pedal. Other than that, it works just fine.
 

Richard

Member
This might be a bit off subject, I think:

trying to determine how to "adjust" the clutch pedal play. I have about an inch and a half of play on my clutch pedal (clutch pedal fully free and I can wiggle it up and down about that much). I see both ends of the clutch rod where the threads are but didn't want to mess with it until I got some feedback.

Clutch engages just fine, when pedal is fully to the floor, clutch engages about half way up from from fully depressed to fully free (along with the 1 1/2 of play). Was wondering of this is normal, or not.

Thanks,
 

Tiny Yokum

Member
This might be a bit off subject, I think:

trying to determine how to "adjust" the clutch pedal play. I have about an inch and a half of play on my clutch pedal (clutch pedal fully free and I can wiggle it up and down about that much). I see both ends of the clutch rod where the threads are but didn't want to mess with it until I got some feedback.

Clutch engages just fine, when pedal is fully to the floor, clutch engages about half way up from from fully depressed to fully free (along with the 1 1/2 of play). Was wondering of this is normal, or not.

Thanks,
Normal end play on the clutch pedal is 1/2" +_ 1/8"
Excess end play is probably worn linkage and/or the throw out bearing collar.
The ideal time to replace the collar is with the clutch job.
For now, if the ears are still good on your existing collar, you might be able to turn the connecting rod with acts like a turnbuckle, (loosen jamb nuts first) then take out some play.
Some end play is nessesary so as not to wear out the bearing by riding it with linkage that is too tight, or somebodies foot.
As long as you have the clutch inspection cover off, shoot some grease in the TO bearing zerk fitting.
 
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