Proper Clutch Identification

[Tiny Yokum]

yes!

The best way/least expensive would be to simply have the flywheel you are going to use..."neutral balanced" along with the companion clutch assembly you will be running. And that would be done after the flywheel is checked to make sure it can be re-surfaced, and then the re-surface is completed.

In other words, the entire new rotating assembly would be neutral balanced so it won't affect the rest of the motor, not the best methodology (which would be a full balance job), but will certainly work just fine.

Thank you sir.

 

[stu simpson]

nice lookin' motor tiny!!

A quick tour through various parts list for fullsize stuff shows at least four different p/n's for the sleeve/bearing assembly, the sleeve itself was not available separately, the bearing of course was.

Jeff and I dug through a box of these items in October and he pointed out the differences, but I don't remember which is which!

I have here two identical sleeves, one with bearing, one without. As ya can see the critical length to the point where the throwout bearing seats on the shoulder is 3-1/4" on these two. And I "think" (based on all the parts there were in a pile I received that came from the same rig), that this sleeve is for the diaphragm clutch only. So this is the "short" one. Iirc, the longer sleeve is for the borg and beck or long clutch cover. Seems it was approximately 1" longer overall.

Also varies with "which" transmission code we're talkin'. The parts list does not give "helpful" data such as length!

Jeff will check this for ya when he can, he sounded pretty rough on the phone today so hopefully he's feeling well enough to open the doors and phones tomorrow.

Did you swap from one type clutch to the other when ya pulled the motor for freshen??

thanks for the research and pictures michael. Those sleeves look just like the (2) I have. About 15 years ago, I was able to locate a collar that iirc was about 1" longer, for a sii, it still works great. I tried a different looking cover this time but the t/o bearing was too far away to contact the fingers. Went back to original cover (pp) with new disc and adjusted the rod to where it releases but there is only about 1/2" threaded into the y end. Seems like it's at the far end of the travel spectrum. Guess I'll run it for a while, just seems a little sketchy. Thanks again, merry Christmas to all !

Ok I am trying to help 2 different guys with to/sleeve issues and they have similar problems albeit different applications!!!!!! Their setups want longer to setups as their assemblies "fall off" the end of input bearing retainer tube before they think the bearing engages the fingers.

situation #1:

1978 Scout II t19 close ratio transmission with bell and bellcrank, was missing the to assembly. Was behind a 304. Worked swimmingly prior to removal. Wants to put it in a Scout 800 that had a t90. Is trying to re-use the clutch and to bearing that was with the t90. The t90 has a much longer tube than the t19. The input shaft is exposed 4 5/8" on the t19 (as it is on ther t18, t19s and t98s in my shop), about 2" on the t90. The assembly falls off the t19 tube before it engages the clutch fingers. Through research, I have found that the stiock finger height regardless of plate is between 2.125" and 2.25". The variable would be the length of the collar and where the bearing presses onto the collar. Both to forks are identical between the Scout 800 with the t90 and the sii with the t19. edit: upon measurement the to/collar assembly on the t90 setup is 2 13/16 long and the t90 bell crosshaft seems to be further forward than a 4 speed bell. May help explain things!!!

In the pic above of the side by side collars, one has a bearing and the other doesn't. The bearing seems to be pressed onto the thin boss on the end of the collar. All of the ones in my shop have the bearing pressed down over the full machined surface so that is contacts the shoulder. The end of the casting is flush with the face of the to bearing. The length of these assemblies is 3 3/8" long, total (have 4 or 5). The above pic shows an assembly about 4" long total. I am not assuming for a minute that any or all of these donor rigs had the proper to assembly, I am just saying that the assemblies sitting next to each other are identical although they came from sii, s800s and d series trucks.

It sounds like he needs the 4" long assembly???????????? What is stock behind a sii???? Does it vary by transmission????

situation #2:

Guy is trying to diagnose bad clutch. Finds one broken arm on pp. Is a b&b plate. To assembly is 3 3/8" long. Finger height is 2.125". Setup is a 196ic, t15 3 speed. Truck supposedly ran and drove fine prior to plate failure (something had to cause the arm to break, right?). Same issue....bearing assembly wants to fall off the input bearing retainer tube before it engages the fingers.......

Wrong collar, or wrong bearing pressed onto wrong boss?

 

[Tiny Yokum]

yes!

The best way/least expensive would be to simply have the flywheel you are going to use..."neutral balanced" along with the companion clutch assembly you will be running. And that would be done after the flywheel is checked to make sure it can be re-surfaced, and then the re-surface is completed.

In other words, the entire new rotating assembly would be neutral balanced so it won't affect the rest of the motor, not the best methodology (which would be a full balance job), but will certainly work just fine.

ok, took your advise michael.
Had my flywheel and clutch cover match balanced After resurfacing and rebuilding.
Picture shows alignment marks in blue dye and drilled in upper right.
Pilot bearing, bolts and the 3 buttons in the middle are new.
​

 

[Michael Mayben]

Thanks for the follow-up! Looks like the builders did a really nice job and knew what they were doing!

Some (but not all) of the various IH service manuals make reference to a witness Mark stamped on the flywheel when the entire assembly was originally put together and balanced during the engine build phase on the assembly line. But none of the flywheels I have on hand show any evidence of that, so standard practice is...any time the clutch assembly must be removed from the flywheel, it should go back on in the same position in order to maintain an semblance of "balance" that it has.

Once ya get the rig running, let us know how ya think the clutch action and flywheel work turned out as far as any change in vibration (better or worse?). Feedback like this is very important for validating whether our "tech" is correct or not!

 

[Tiny Yokum]

on the subject of throwout bearing collars, mine appears worn down substantually (.075") after 400,000+ hard miles.
Although it was working ok in a 1975 sii xlc, replacement is in order.
It measures 3.168" not including the bearing. 3.250" from the bearing surface to the opposite end.​

those dimemsions are probably wrong.

 

[Michael Mayben]

on the subject of throwout bearing collars, mine appears worn down substantually (.075") after 400,000+ hard miles.
Although it was working ok in a 1975 sii xlc, replacement is in order.
It measures 3.168" not including the bearing. 3.250" from the bearing surface to the opposite end.​

In post #11 in this thread, the throwout collar in the pic on the right should be the one you need.

Jeff most likely has some of those on hand at the shop. If he does not, I have one I can give up, it shows no wear whatsoever on any contact point.

So that is where your "clutch throw"/travel has gone.

 

[Tiny Yokum]

thank you mr. Mayben. I will check the ihonlynorth online store first.
Thank you for the advise and generous offer.

 

[Michael Mayben]

thank you mr. Mayben. I will check the ihonlynorth online store first.
Thank you for the advise and generous offer.

Check carefully your "clutch release fork" (p/n 62 635 hd). Verify the two pads that contact the collar are not worn down also. A combination of the worn fork pads and the worn collar pivot points adds up to total lack of proper clutch pedal travel vs. Pressure plate actuation.

I don't have any of the clutch release forks here. If needed, those points can be built up with electric weld material mig is easiest but stick can also be used carefully) and then reground to an approximation of the original dimension.

 

[Tiny Yokum]

check carefully your "clutch release fork" (p/n 62 635 hd). Verify the two pads that contact the collar are not worn down also. A combination of the worn fork pads and the worn collar pivot points adds up to total lack of proper clutch pedal travel vs. Pressure plate actuation.

I don't have any of the clutch release forks here. If needed, those points can be built up with electric weld material mig is easiest but stick can also be used carefully) and then reground to an approximation of the original dimension.

I have a spare clutch release fork. It was from a 1966 IH housecar with a t-98/sv392. It shows very little wear and mics the same as the 1975 sii crf. The pads and fork tangs are beefier on the sii unit. The sii crf pads were very rough which is were I suspect the wear problem came from. I am using this 1966 crf.

 

[Tiny Yokum]

neutrally balanced flywheel and cover (resurfaced)
with nos 12" driven disc installed on sv345 engine.
Thanks to Isa, michael and everyone for the correct collar, to bearing and help.

​

 

[Michael Mayben]

Good work!

Neutral balance of the entire rotating mass is the right way to do this!

 

[Overland Scout]

I'm replacing my clutch in my 76 Scout II t-19 and I have my original flywheel that will be resurfaced, however I will be using a new clutch assembly.

I was talking to another IH'er about this balancing of an IH flywheel and he told me the following:

the ihsv crank is externally balanced by an offset balanced flywheel. In other words, the flywheels on these engines are not "zero" balance. If you have the flywheel machined, tell them to check the balance before machining and restore it to the original balance after machining. I think the shop that did mine used temporary weights to zero it out before machining, zero'd after, then removed the temp weights.

From reading this thread, I've confirmed that he is right about the offset balance, but I haven't seen anything on this method of temporary weights used for machining the flywheels.

Should I follow his advice on the temporary weights when I take the flywheel to the machine shop?

good work!

Neutral balance of the entire rotating mass is the right way to do this!

 

[towpainter3]

A competent machine shop will be able to rebalance the flywheel to the original balance or you can have the flywheel and new pressure plate neutral balanced. This will take care of the pressure plate which will be off more than the flywheel even if you didnt rebalance.
I May be wrong, but if you removed .005 or even .025 across the surface of the flywheel the effect on balance should be extremely minimal due to it being removed in an equal manner. The weight in metal removed would be small and imho having the 2 neutral balanced would be more beneficial since you cant do the whole rotating assy.

 

[superc_1]

Mm
the code for my clutch on the lineset ticket says its a 11 in. 1800 11215? Is this an angle style?

 

[1975IH200]

mm
the code for my clutch on the lineset ticket says its a 11 in. 1800 11215? Is this an angle style?

Yes, --> 11215 Dana 11" (angle link) Scout w/v-304; 1800 lb

 

[Richard]

well, here goes:

I have a 1977 SII, 196, 3-spd with a chain drive transfer case. I have purchased a T-19 close ratio w/ D20 transfer case to replace the 3 speed. My questions are:

I am a bit confused about the TO bearing re: the length issue. In this thread there is discussion about different type of TO bearing and length. I do not understand one TO bearing from another, so is reusing the TO bearing from the 3 speed ok? or not? I am trying not to ask a dumb question, but need to know. Or are all Scout II's (regardless of engine/transmission) the same? Is the TO bearing differences because of the discussion of Scout 80's/800's? I have not pull the 3 speed yet (this weekend), but would like to get some basic understanding of the different length issues.

Another question: with the 3 speed, the clutch engages really high up on the clutch pedal. Is this a TO bearing issue, or a clutch adjustment issue?

Thanks for the responses.

 

[Hondo]

If your 3 speed set up is all stock, I would think it is an adjustment issue with peddle height. There should be an adjustable length rod going from inside the cab, through the floorboard and to the bell crank. Basically you loosen jam nuts at each end of the rod, and then spin the rod to make it longer or shorter to adjust . A service manual would help and is an essential item in your set of tools, as well as the parts manual, which has many exploded views with part numbers. I know there are several different length collars that the throw out bearings get pressed on to, as well as versions that allow you to grease the bearing while it is installed - as long as you press the bearing onto the collar correctly. You may also run into issues with the bell housing/transmission interface. don't know if the 3 speed and T19 use the same bell housing.

 

[Richard]

Ya know: dumb me!

Thanks for the quick reply. Let me rethink what I was trying to say re: the TO bearing/collar. I am switching from a 3 spd with a chain drive transfer case to a 4spd T-19 with a D20 transfer case. I am also swapping out the bell housing as the 3spd bell housing is not drilled for the 4spd. I have the bell housing for the 4spd.

I plan to re-use the same 11" disk and pressure plate from the 3spd as it only has about 5K miles on it.

My concern was the TO bearing/sleeve from the 3spd. I am trying to determine if that same TO bearing/sleeve will work on the 4spd. Crap, the 4spd and Transfer case weigh a pretty penny, and I didn't want to hook everything up and find out it is too long/short for this application.

Again, thanks for the response and any other info is appreciated.

 

[ihpartsjeff]

The answer is yes keep the same throwout bearing that you are currently using. Length wise they need to match the clutch, then the transmission. However, One thing I would double check is the front bearing retainer length. Otherwise known as the "snout" of the transmission, this is the part that your throwout bearing collar rides on. If the one on your T19 is much shorter than the one on your 3 speed transmission, then yes you may need to change the throwout bearing collar to a different one to prevent the bearing from falling off the end of the snout. I hope this all makes sense. If not, post pictures of the front of each of your transmissions with a tape measure coming off the front mounting surface(where the bellhousing bolts to) so we can verify you won't run into this problem. I bring this up as we do run into this problem from time to time and still do not know why IH had Borg Warner shorten up this part on some later T19's.

 

[Richard]

Outstanding! Thanks for the quick reply. Yup, gotta get this done this weekend, and will post pix for sure.