power loss, burning, lack of fuel...wtf??

Ok, this happened again today. Pulling a 6k# trailer with a 1972 1210 up a somewhat descent grade and it lost almost all power. Then a strong burning smell, clutch or brake but it was quick, dropped to about 30-35mph, then acted fine after getting over the hill...I did notice that if I floored it there would seem to jolt of life, which made me think it was a fuel issue, but why the burning smell...also, there is an issue with the truck shutting off on its own at idle/low rpm after towing...hope that makes some sense....I'm lost!!
Thanx!!
 
Need more vehicle specs/data. The symptoms seem to indicate an intermittent electrical issue that May be influencing the ignition system. Excess underhood temps resulting from the severe duty of pulling a heavy load up a grade could also be a contributing factor. Does the distributor have breaker points? Is the original resistor wire feed to the coil still in place? Is the coil a stock unit or has it been replaced with an aftermarket one? What overall condition is the wiring in on this truck? Is it hacked, butchered, and spliced to kingdom come, or is it mostly unmolested? Was the trailer wiring done correctly or did macgruber go hog wild on it with bailing twine and bubble gum splices? Just need a much better picture of what we're dealing with here. Matter of fact, actual pictures are always welcome.
 
Yikes! Thanx scoutboy,
I could have written a book on this thing but didn't want to get too lengthy....its a manual with ?80,000 miles and ive only had it about 8 months, my first IH and I don't know much about trucks, kinda learning as I go....it was in worse shape than I realized when I bought it but it wasn't too terrible. The wiring was somewhat hacked but mostly for the radio and some aftermarket fog lights. They also added some "extension" wires to the ignition. I had a guy working on it quite a bit who seemed pretty good but after a while I realized he was....well lazy and shotty. We figured there was a heat issue when it would not want to start after towing, turned over but no start till I really pumped the pedal. We moved and replaced the starter solenoid to the firewall. Put in petronix, put the timing back to 10 after having it to about 13 after a pinging issue, removed the original brake controller and replaced, I just replaced manifold vacuum hoses, original carb still on it. I should mention that a few times ive seated the screws on the carb, backed them out 2 turns and adjusted the idle screw and shell be fine for a while...again leading me to thoughts of fuel issues. If it was electrical wouldn't this be more consistant? Ill try to get some pics up....
Again, thanx to anyone who chimes in!!

***just went and sprayed starter fluid on the hoses and no reaction, when I sprayed it in the carb it died. The engine "surges" and rpms from about 6k to almost 0 on a consistent rhythm just catching before she shuts off and the lights dim accordingly. Again I reseated the screws, backed out 2 turns, then another 1/2 and adjusted the idle and she stays right at about 6500 rpm perfectly...
 
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The only consistent thing about these rust piles is how damned inconsistently they can behave. Its not uncommon on a vintage vehicle that hasn't been handled with kid gloves its whole life to have multiple gremlins to fight. Fuel and electrical system issues generally top the list. Many of which can be traced back to "creative" previous owner repair attempts. It really does take a holistic approach, as one domino out of place can influence many others down the line. And when a "hired gun" comes galloping in, they all to often end up doing more harm than good out of incompetence, ignorance, laziness or all the above. Welcome to the club. Your best way forward now rests on your own ability to self-educate and apply what you learn. These old rigs make great laboratories for the budding shade tree wrench turner. With that very concise preamble out of the way, I'll now dive into your supplemental remarks.

Please explain what you mean by "extension wires added to the ignition". Are we talking spliced pieces? For what reason? Where do they terminate? I see a red flag warning here.

You didn't move the solenoid. Its still mounted to the starter motor, doing its thang. What you did was add a remote relay on the firewall and then relocated the small gauge wires that were formerly attached to your solenoid, up to the remote relay. Very common modification.

The need for excess starter cranking and throttle pumping to restart a hot engine indicates fuel boil and vapor lock. It can be a real problem with carbs and their associated low fuel pressure requirements, all compounded by today's ethanol laced fuel. 5-7 psi is plenty to keep liquid flowing, but once it turns to vapor, not so much. So your engine at that point is essentially out of gas and not getting any, even if the supply in your tank is completely full. Its most problematic when the engine has been shut down hot. There's suddenly no air flowing across the radiator and no coolant circulating through the system. The hood is shut trapping all that heat inside the engine bay like an oven. The liquid fuel that had been flowing is now static and rapidly turning to vapor. Then you come back five or ten minutes later expecting the engine to just light off like usual...good friggin' luck with that!

From a big picture perspective, the integrity and effectiveness of your cooling system is suspect. If it can't keep up with the demands you're placing on the engine, you're headed for heartache. I could go on and on about that topic, but for now I'll hold fire and give you a chance to provide a thorough assessment of your cooling system condition in your next reply.

You replaced the points with a p-tron. Fine. What about the resistor wire that supplies switched power to your coil? Is it still there? Can you tell the difference between a resistor wire and a typical automotive wire? I'm just wanting to know precisely what you have hooked to the positive terminal of your coil. Your truck originally had a resistor wire there, which was needed for the breaker points. Now that the points are gone, the resistor wire should also be gone, having been replaced by a normal wire. Its a housekeeping thing.

What engine are we dealing with here? I'm assuming its an IH sv8, but that can be a dangerous assumption. This really should have been the first piece of information volunteered right off the jump. Which cylinder were you using to establish timing?

What model is the carb? How do you know its original? Any fuel filters in place? Are they clean? Had the truck sat for a long time with ancient fuel in the tank before you got it? Was there rust or other shmootz in the tank? What did you do to clean it out? Do you have a vacuum gauge in your tool box? If not, please get one. Something you might try is to remove the air/fuel mixture screws, blast some carb cleaner spray into the holes, chased with compressed air, and then reset the screws. As for how many turns out you have them, that should be determined by what you see on a vacuum gauge in conjunction with what you hear from the engine. By that I mean the highest number on the gauge along with the smoothest possible idle. Could be two turns out, could be 1.5, could be 2.5. Just so long as they are both the same. Also, what's the elevation where you play?

That's quite a lot for you to sort through.
 
6500 rpms? What the frak? What engine you got in there, boy? Ain't no way a slow revving corn binder motor is revving up to 65 hundo. Better check your tach.
 
Whew lol, ok, 650 rpms, sorry for the extra 0, its a 345 and your correct about the movement of the wires. I don't know that the carb is original but its very old and a Holley, if it isn't original its from the same time era....so to speak. When we put on the new booster and master cylinder. There was about a 17 reading on the vac gauge if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure where to check the vacuum on this carb...I don't see any ports. The extension wires were at the ignition..we assumed it was done because it is so tight to work with when removed. So there are just a few inches of wire on each one that we soldered and wrapped well.
When its been hot I have checked, but will again, and there is fuel shooting into the carb so we strongly questioned vapor lock.
I just went and tightened some fairly loose wires on the battery and solenoid relay and now it fires perfectly and is still setting nicely at 650 rpm...
Any idea on the burning smell....could a clutch engage when not physically depressed....
Truly appreciate your time!!
Oh, and she leaks coolant to about 3 inches below the top every once an a while....no consistency as to when lol...
 

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Whew lol, ok, 650 rpms, sorry for the extra 0, its a 345 and your correct about the movement of the wires. I don't know that the carb is original but its very old and a Holley, if it isn't original its from the same time era....so to speak. When we put on the new booster and master cylinder. There was about a 17 reading on the vac gauge if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure where to check the vacuum on this carb...I don't see any ports. The extension wires were at the ignition..we assumed it was done because it is so tight to work with when removed. So there are just a few inches of wire on each one that we soldered and wrapped well.
When its been hot I have checked, but will again, and there is fuel shooting into the carb so we strongly questioned vapor lock.
I just went and tightened some fairly loose wires on the battery and solenoid relay and now it fires perfectly and is still setting nicely at 650 rpm...
Any idea on the burning smell....could a clutch engage when not physically depressed....
Truly appreciate your time!!
Oh, and she leaks coolant to about 3 inches below the top every once an a while....no consistency as to when lol...
 
I thought that might be the case with your engine speed, but I couldn't pass up such a golden opportunity to bust your balls about it.:prrr:

thanks for the pics. They really do help. The carb is a Holley model 2300 (2bbl) with side hung float. Could well be original. Its the correct design for the model year of the truck. In the pic of the coil, I can see that the factory resistor wire is still hooked to the positive terminal. It is easy to id as it is the rather oddly insulated, ugly duckling. I assume the red wire hooked there is for the p-tron module. I wonder about the black wire that is bundled into a common terminal with the ugly resistor wire. What's that one? Can you trace it out and id? I suspect it is the black wire hooked to your remote relay 'I' terminal. If you can confirm that, you can then remove it or leave it disconnected at both ends. It isn't needed with the p-tron in place.

Now back to that resistor wire. Your p-tron likes full voltage to the coil, but that resistor wire is supplying a reduced voltage. The reduction is needed for points, but since you no longer have points, you don't need the reduction. I suggest you replace the entire length of that resistor wire with an appropriate length of standard awg 14-16 gauge wire. By appropriate length, I mean long enough to make the run. The resistor wire originates at your firewall bulkhead connector and it is much longer than it would physically need to be to make the run. That extra length is what establishes the needed resistance for the points. You don't have to worry about that now. Just get it out of there. This won't magically solve all your troubles, but it should be done as part of keeping your electrical house in order.

Speaking of that, as you're discovering, loose and/or corroded terminals and connections between your battery and basically everywhere else are best avoided. They can be a major source of a vast array of electrical issues. Check them often and make improvements as needed.

For connecting a vacuum gauge, your best bet is to find a port that is coming straight off the intake manifold, rather than a port on the carb. This might be easier said than done in your case. Obviously, the hose feeding your brake booster is coming straight off the manifold, but that is a large diameter fitting. A vacuum gauge typically has a small diameter hose. If you don't have a dearth of smaller hose ports on your engine that are presently capped, you might have to get creative with a reducer so that a small line can be temporarily adapted to a large fitting, if that makes any sense.

Are you saying the extended wires are at the ignition switch in the dash? Those are the critical descriptor words I'm seeking.

I'm more of an automatic guy. I've serviced a few. Not so much the manuals. I can drive them fine. I just haven't messed with them much. How does it shift when you go through the gears on level ground and not pulling a load? Have you noticed any issues when you ease the pedal out to get rolling from a stop? The smell could be several things. Could be a slipping clutch. Could be electrical. Could be some type of lubricant cooking off of the exhaust. If you could have a grizzled wrench turner riding with you when the smell happened, his experienced nostrils could probably home in on just what was making the smell. Its tough to do much beyond make wild ass guesses from where I'm sitting. They haven't figgerd out how to transmit smells through the owl gorz interwebz yet.

So are you saying your coolant level will just go down over time, with no signs of an obvious leak point? You never see any drips from the hoses or the radiator itself? That's scary. Coolant doesn't just disappear without a trace. Its going somewhere. Better make sure it isn't getting into your crank case and mixing with your motor oil. That would be very bad.
 
I don't blame ya for the ball bust in! I'd do the same! Lol I figured as much for the carb..I am still thinking its in dire need of a rebuild though. Just ran her around the block and she starts perfectly and runs like a top. I'm sure after a longer haul shell fall out again...the perron is a pain, I bought a resistor after the starting issue thinking it needed it then after we researched it said to use the original equipment and the numbers were right after testing.
You nailed the issue with the vacuum gauge....I didn't have the time to figure out an adapter...but need to!,
the coolant isn't in the oil thankfully! It seems to be from the front of the engine/pump area...sometimes there's some missing, sometimes not lol...
The wires are extended behind the ignition key switch at the dash.
I know the difference in the smells but my head started racing and freaking out so bad I forgot which it was lol...I tow a food trailer with her and this was on the way to an event so being late wasn't an option, not that it ever is!
As for slippage she's great 90+% of the time......just these weird spurts...coming out of granny gear I barely use it...she's just ready to pull, and she shifts great but will pop out of 3rd at a high rpm and no throttle input...
Pulled a few plugs today expecting a pile of crud and they were pretty damn clean...autolite 300. (?) but a touch of oil on the threads that I'm hoping is from a seeping valve cover gasket....
That's this weeks project.... I think hahha
 
Hi, there does not appear to be an insulating base gasket under the carb. That can cause the feul to boil in the carb. Just to confirm, when it "looses power and smells", does the engine loose rpm's, or does the vehicle just slow down? If the latter, the clutch cuuld be slipping. How much free play is there in the pedal?
 
Hey chappie, that's the weird thing...the rpms didn't really change...she just kinda gave up for a bit..the clutch is fine with a few inches of free play, and to verify, the clutch is not being touched...I'm in 4th gear and she just dies off...but again, how could a clutch slip with no engagement.,....
 
Clutches will slip when worn out, free play or not. The smell is a clue. They only last me around 90k miles. Fix it soon before a new flywheel is needed due to grooves from the rivets.
 
Autolite 303...not really the best plug for these engines. Autolite 85's work better. I also like ngk 3332. Carb could probably benefit from an overhaul.
That's good that the coolant isn't getting into the oil. The water pumps have a weep hole in the bottom that serves as a tattle tale when the wp bearings are beginning to fail. But, you should make an effort to get confirmation of where the leak is coming from. There are metal coolant transfer tubes, freeze plugs and hoses in that general area, any of which could be the source of a leak.
So does this engine have a clutch on the cooling fan and is there a fan shroud in place? Have you ever flushed out the cooling system?
 
Chappie, so we questioned the clutch, but it didn't make sense that it would only do it every 100+ miles and would it do it only on hills and just sporadically? I also talked to the po and he says a new clutch was done a year before I bought it and I talked to his mechanic, normally I wouldn't trust a po, but I do a bit because his "friend" sold it to me and took off with his $, so he has no real reason to lie....that's a whole other book I could write lol.
Scoutboy, that's funny, I was gonna change the plugs yesterday but saw on a forum here that some liked the 303s...if you really think I should change them I will today though. I figured the weep hole or a freeze plug...I just can't get up in the compartment to see well enough! How can I tell if there's a fan clutch? The fan is fine and the coolant is clean and stays green inside as well as on the ground lol
 
Some do like the 303. They're the standard tip design. If you feel they're doing well enough for your needs, considering you have plenty of other fish to fry, no one would blame you for running them awhile longer. The 85's are an extended tip design and a couple steps hotter in the heat range. So if you get to feeling froggy and want to try something different, you could do that.
If your fan has a clutch, it will be a noticeable device just ahead of the radiator core. You can do a google image search of a fan clutch to get an idea of what they look like out of the engine bay. Another way to tell is if you can turn the fan blade by hand when the engine is off. If you can, then you either have a clutch, or your drive belt is way too loose!
 
Well you can test the clutch, put it in 4th rev up the engine a bit and floor it as you let the clutch pedal out. It will either kill the engine (good) or make a lot of smoke (not so good). There are lots of things that can be done wrong when installing a new clutch. Oil contamination is a biggie. Depending who the rebuilder is you May get a good clutch cover or not.

On the water pump wiggle the fan blade and see how much the water pump shaft moves. Much movement at all and I'd replace it just to be sure. Don't want to get stuck on a hill somewhere, pulling a trailer, with an overheated engine. This is the voice of experience here. :wink5:

random stuff is a bitch to figure out, but stick with it, you'll get it. Just to confirm, is there an insulating base gasket under the carb? There will be a big tab that goes under the float bowl to keep the gas in the bowl from getting heated by the manifold. It will look like this
iheng-gask-crb-2bbl.html
Buy one here if needed: http://www.IHPartsAmerica.com/store/iheng-gask-crb-2bbl.html
 
Posted on bp also.

Your fuel problem has nothing to do with a rubber fuel line, it's size, or a plastic filter. If you had the line run the same way before and it ran fine, then it's routing is not the issue.
Have you recently changes anything on your truck even if it seems unrelated???
You're correct in your statement that if it dies while hot and fires right up with a priming through the carb, then any ignition related part is not the problem.
Have you verified that there is no fuel in your oil? Your nose will do. Bad diaphragm will pass fuel into the oil. A bad valve will simply not provide the rated volume and or pressure.
Typically a bad fuel pump whether hot or cold will present the same symptoms.
Temporarily plumb a fuel pressure gauge near the carb and see that it is making rated pressure. 4-7 psi is good. Low fuel pressure will allow boiling at a lower temperature. Do your self the favor of verifying fuel pressure cold and hot.
Also closely inspect the plumbing on the tank side of the pump. A small leak can reek havoc.
 
I think these are two different rust piles, rk. The guy over on bp has an edelbroil 1406. This dude here has an oe Holley 2300.
 
You're right, they sure read the same though. :blush2:
that's what happens when I simply don't have the time to filter out the bs. Also why I generally stay over hear.
 
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