Odd Lifter Wear Pattern in 152

charles brown said:
Robert, your my hero! I think you and dave wamsett have got to twist mm into cracking open those tight fists to drop some coin on a full boat, forced induction, fully rollerized valvetrain 196. Whose gonna port and flow the prototype aluminum heads? Mm, if'n you want to talk limits, I know you been there, tryin' to keep three teenage mouths in chow, and figure someway to be ready to put them through junior college. Besides, I could of swore, my IH shop manual prohibits the use of any other tools and materials besides duct tape, gorilla glue and baling wire. Yep, I sure do wish I lived a lot closer to you guys!

Semper FI!
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Charles,

thanks, but I want to preface with the following. I am a nub compared to one that worked @ dei. I will listen (if given the chance ) to dave and michael m. All night being a sponge.

I have some real ideas on making the IH turd port heads really flow.. Including but not limited to changing the valve angles to encourage flow and deshroud the valve head's. Tricks learned from guys who were on the cutting edge of drag racing in the late 60's to the end of the 70's. One is on our race team. Others have run bonneville land speed cars since the 50's and still go because they love it.

I feel real fortunate to be involved with these guys who shall go nameless publicly. When they are gone they are gone with all of there experience.:( so I am getting while there is still gettin to get. :icon_eh: they can humble everyone I know including me.

Robert
 
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Robert kenney said:
Variables that effect lifter rotation as I see it are:

1) cam lobe taper( angle) .0015"
2) lifter to bore clearance .0035"
3) cam lobe to lifter bore for and aft offset (unknown)
4) lifter face curvature (unknown)
5) bore (lifter) geometry (unknown)
6) lifter body finish ( crappy on lifters installed as compared to IH oem units)

Robert
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I agree

1. Highly likely
2. Shouldn't be the issue sv's have run for years as such and presumably yours had too.
3. Again shouldn't be the issue if this cam was used in this engine before w/o problems, ad in the fact that 1 was rotating and it becomes more unlikely.
4. Highly likely, how does the one that was rotating check out?
5. Again if this engine and cam core had a long life together before the rebuild it shouldn't have changed.
6. Maybe, a poor surface shouldn't be the cause of lack of rotation, in fact a little rougher might rotate better than a smoother surface.

Since your lifters are white boxers that May be the issue, the common practice is to keep the "a" grade parts for their own or other high quality brand or the oe that contracted the design/mfg in the first place. The "b" grade will go to the price brands while the "c" and "d" grade will go in the white boxes.

I would be tempted to put a set of johnson or sealed power/johnson lifters in there, run them through the break-in cycle and pop a couple out to check if they are rotating after a hundred miles or so. Otherwise it's pull the cam and send it back to schneider if it sounds like the will waranty it or call delta and speak to "the man" there if they won't.
 
greg r said:
sorry to read about your lifter luck. I've never seen "flat" lifters out of a box, but sh** happens I suppose. I found this article at camcraft, you probably already know most of it. I learned a few things from it, particularly in the lubes area. I suppose as the oils get more 'n more legislated, I'll be buy'in more "break in lube" for lube.
camcraft cams - cam failures: some thoughts on cam and lifter wear
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Thanks, greg that is good information from a "verified" source.. The procedures listed should always be followed to the t.

One oil source that never gets mentioned is av oil. Fair pricing and great additive package. I have read the make up with regards to zinc and phosphorus content so if I find it I will post.
I have used it in a few high perfornance marine motors I built with out an issue.

Robert
 
We'll be addressing the "head" issue real soon Robert...and dantastic, you, me, and dave will definitely be bouncin' stuff around. Dave wants to "modernize" the heads, and the bandsaw is gonna come into play onna scrapper we have so he can "refresh" his memory regarding the port work he did on these many years ago. And at the time he had flow benches in his shop along with the dyno cells in portland, pre-dei at that point. Dave's mentor was rolla vollstedt of rear engine/stock block indy car fame (and still going strong dealing in vintage stuff from that era). And my all time hero is eddie hill!

A valve and spring swap, and seat angle change is already in the plan.

Then I'll finish out the intake manifold I've got started to go with the head.

Gotcha on the lifter lube and load deal, sure will be alot neater!

Don't know exactly what Jeff has now in the way of tooling to analyze the cam, but we'll figger it out one way or another since right now we have a fresh grind to look at along with the johnsons. It will be next Monday before we can do that at the earliest though.

Blow some doors at bakersfield! And get me sum autographs before them fossils can't hold a pen anymore! That's why I only type!
 
greg r said:
sorry to read about your lifter luck. I've never seen "flat" lifters out of a box, but sh** happens I suppose. I found this article at camcraft, you probably already know most of it. I learned a few things from it, particularly in the lubes area. I suppose as the oils get more 'n more legislated, I'll be buy'in more "break in lube" for lube.
camcraft cams - cam failures: some thoughts on cam and lifter wear
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That info is seriously out of date and incorrect, yes the epa did legislate reduced zinc and phosporous levels but did not eliminate it entirely as they state. This did affect oils labeled "sm" for spark ignition engines first and then later the "cj-4" oils for compression ignition engines. While the "sm" spec reduced the zinc limit below the IH minimum spec of 1000ppm "cj-4" oils can still contain up to about 1200ppm, doesn't mean that they all do, but they can. The engine supplier I use specs delo or rotella for their warranty requirements and other than a few engines that we installed right after the change to "sm" spec oils, before we and the rebuilder knew about the change, we have not had any cam failures. This is in a fleet of sbc powered p-30's that does daily home delivery, some units exceeding 200mi and 300 stops per day so some of those engines are nearing 100k running on exclusively delo 15-40. No failures in the dt466, t444, t444e, 6.5l powered IH/navistar/workhorse either and many of those are 50k per year rigs as well.

Long story short there is no need for any of the special additives if used with a known high quality "cj-4" or one of the still available "sl" oils that carry only the "sl" designation w/o "sm" on the label.

For the real story straight from the main source for engine oil additives check out the lubrizol corporation Or www.cj-4.com
 
eric vanburen said:
that info is seriously out of date and incorrect, yes the epa did legislate reduced zinc and phosporous levels but did not eliminate it entirely as they state. This did affect oils labeled "sm" for spark ignition engines first and then later the "cj-4" oils for compression ignition engines. While the "sm" spec reduced the zinc limit below the IH minimum spec of 1000ppm "cj-4" oils can still contain up to about 1200ppm, doesn't mean that they all do, but they can. The engine supplier I use specs delo or rotella for their warranty requirements and other than a few engines that we installed right after the change to "sm" spec oils, before we and the rebuilder knew about the change, we have not had any cam failures. This is in a fleet of sbc powered p-30's that does daily home delivery, some units exceeding 200mi and 300 stops per day so some of those engines are nearing 100k running on exclusively delo 15-40. No failures in the dt466, t444, t444e, 6.5l powered IH/navistar/workhorse either and many of those are 50k per year rigs as well.

Long story short there is no need for any of the special additives if used with a known high quality "cj-4" or one of the still available "sl" oils that carry only the "sl" designation w/o "sm" on the label.

For the real story straight from the main source for engine oil additives check out the lubrizol corporation Or www.cj-4.com
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Actually eric,

for the business cam craft( core competency) is in, it is not out of date by any stretch of the imagination. Any self respecting performance engine builder understands and to much invested in the engine to risk low wear package.

They grind cams that can have 350+ # open pressure and 150 seat. The fleet you claim to know May have 190# and 88 you could probably use straight mineral oil with 0 ppm zn and see no issues. When engines are run regularly the cams don't "dry out" and scuffing is rare. Sooooo.

I have over $10k invested in the 409 in my roadster and will only listen to info applied in like situations. No real problem erroring on the safe side but catastrophe if not.

Rk
 
Robert kenney said:
actually eric,



they grind cams that can have 350+ # open pressure and 150 seat. The fleet you claim to know May have 190# and 88 you could probably use straight mineral oil with 0 ppm zn and see no issues. When engines are run regularly the cams don't "dry out" and scuffing is rare. Sooooo.


Rk
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Yes the engines I am working on are "stock" engines but using "sm" spec oil resulted in 3 cam failures in engines that had around 15k. And these engines do a fair amount of idling while the driver is out of the truck making the delivery, and during idle cam lubrication is minimal.


And their statement that all zinc was removed is just plain bs.

I agree on a $10k engine to err on the side of safety by using something like the vr-1 racing oil like you do, but for the sv "sl" and "cj-4" will work just fine.
 
eric vanburen said:
I agree on a $10k engine to err on the side of safety by using something like the vr-1 racing oil like you do, but for the sv "sl" and "cj-4" will work just fine.
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The cost differential between vr-1 and what ever border line spec one choses to use is very minimal. Whether the engine cost 1 or 10 k is really not at issue here. What is, is what best protects "all" engine load levels.

To make a statement that greg's post contained invalid info serves no purpose here when taken in context.

I honestly believe you only want to rub people not be a productive member of this board.
Rk
 
Robert kenney said:
the cost differential between vr-1 and what ever border line spec one choses to use is very minimal. Whether the engine cost 1 or 10 k is really not at issue here. What is, is what best protects "all" engine load levels.

To make a statement that greg's post contained invalid info serves no purpose here when taken in context.

I honestly believe you only want to rub people not be a productive member of this board.
Rk
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Delo le 15-40 is far from a borderline spec oil, in fact it is one of the most respected, if not the most respected oil in the trucking industry. With 1300 ppm zinc and 1200 ppm phosphorus it is the same as what you gave for the vr-1. Plus it has a much better detergent package than any "racing oil".


https://www.cbest.chevron.com/generated/msds/pds29828827.pdf

I am not here to rub any one just trying to help keep this board fact based, nothing against greg or his post but the info in the link he provided is from the "sky is falling" days when the reduced zinc level oils were introduced and cam failures were occurring with the new "sm" spec oils. In particular this portion:

why then are we seeing an increase in cam failure? There are several contributing factors. the first and likely primary factor is the Lack of zinc Additive in most of today’s oils. as I understand it, all oils for highway use have no zinc. zinc has, for many years, been one of the primary antiwear additives in motor oils. due to factors involving contamination of catalytic converters, zinc has been outlawed in motor oils for highway use. There has been a decrease in zinc content for several years but as of January 1, 2004, it is eliminated in all oils for highway use. If an oil contains zinc, it must be labeled “ for off road use only” or “not for highway use”. Diesel oils May be an exception. Several of our racing customers have switched to 15w40 diesel oil with good results. (6/1/2007 word is out that zinc has now been removed or substantially reduced in the diesel oils)
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Which while it contains some facts Has completely false info as well.
 
Michael,
did you get a chance to check out the johnson lifters??
I am going into IH withdrawl.:icon_eek: I need to drive the old pig .. :gringrin:

I made an adjustable legnth pushrod so I can reverify the lifter preload before I button it back up.

Robert
 
Ihon was closed on Monday, but we immediately shipped the engine kit with the lifters anyway so the customer would not be held up!

There are more lifters in stock though here now, so I'll go take alook in the nextr hour and make a comparison.

Good thang ya reminded me, yawl have to do that all the time!
 
Don't have an info on the reground cam. Turns out the cam that was shipped to us with the engine kit was wrong, nearly 6" too short! There is a replacement enroute to us now done onna 152 core I sent to the supplier last week. Two more will go up to 'em next week so cams will be a stocking item at ihon in the future, one will be a stocker...the other core will stay with the grinder and will be used to grind to any customer's specification.

Here's lifter poop....

First off...jinuwine International/navistar nos lifters, right out of a sealed package, IH p/n 217158r2. These items are of the "three ring" identification design which denotes the root manufacturer. Od is 0.997". Using a micrometer, those lifters show a nominal 0.002" "crown" when checked from edge to centerline.

The navistar packaging shows a "supplier" code and supplier part number, maybe I can come up with that source info at some point. I did ask that question of a pair of extremely knowledgeable, oldtyme IH dudes yesterday, but they were unsure of the correct answer to that question.

The johnson/epwi lifters are also of the "three ring" identification design. Epwi p/n ha 855. Od is 0.997". And after measuring several of 'em, the "crown" averages 0.0015".

The pic shows the "tool marks" perfectly on the johnson lifter, the navistar item had a real faint pattern which was similar.

So that confirms what schneider, our cam grinder, and dave advises regarding what makes the lifters spin!

Need anything else? Lemme know asap, I'll be leaving Grass Valley early Thursday to head home.
 

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Well....it's update time,

after jawing with mr. Mayben about the johnson lifters he measured, I called Jeff and ordered me a set of 8 so I could butten the pig back up. Like clock work they were sitting on my porch when I got home from the 9-5.

I measured the face curvature and got .001 worth of convex grind on the new lifters.
I verified my lifter preload @ .075 and stuck it back together.

It fired right up and after clattering for 5 minutes @1800 while the lifters pumped up it was 15 more minutes @ 1800 to properly bed the new lifters in to the old cam(if that can happen). It is nice and quiet at all rpm's. I drove it 20 miles on the freeway to make sure it had some good high rpm time on it before parking it...

I will see in the morning if it is still quiet. It is as good as it is going to get until the gt2854r and dual delortos go on for more poop.

Rk
 
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This morning I started it up and what do you know, silence!!!!

Drove it around on a few errands....silence..

Hot,cold 500-1000-4000 only the purr of a happy IH :smilewinkgrin:


Robert
 
I know this is a old post, but the wear pattern you ran into Robert on you 4 cylinder, I ran into the same issue on my 392. I pulled the lifters out for #1, making noise on that cylinder, and had the goofy wear pattern on one of the lifters. The right bank of the engine does not make any noise. Only #1 on the left bank, and its getting oil.
 
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