Odd Lifter Wear Pattern in 152

[Robert Kenney]

I rebuilt the engine in my Scout in 2005. It now has about 7000 miles on it and I was wondering how the lifters were wearing. It also had an odd tick once in a while usually while some what cold after running for 5 minutes. It would be dead quiet @500 rpm and above 700 but would some times tick a bit between 550-700 until I would drive it for 10 minutes or so.

I used what were supposed to be elgine lifters but they came in an unmarked box so I am not sure. Lifters are supposed to have a very slightly convex contour ground in to the cam contact face to facilitate rotation and proper wear. These did not!!! I was uneasy about that from the get-go

sooooooo, I decided to loosen up the rocker assembly and have a look at the lifters for any abnormal wear. This is what I found. The rectangular shiny wear pattern says to me they are not turning and this is the same more or less on all except one(second to last image). They also have a slight line impression in the center of the pattern. The pattern should be even and circular across the face of the lifter..

I will be checking the hardness of the face tomorrow. Imo it should be around 50-55 rockwell c scale. At least all of the GM stuff I have done over the years has been. I have always used valvoline vr1 (1300 ppm zinc , 1200 ppm phosphorus) in my flat tappet motors and never had a problem even with 330# over the nose(not this engine).

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Robert

 

[Eric VanBuren]

Pics?

 

[ronmc1954]

Robert is either me or your pics are not showing, I just get the windows little "x"

 

[Robert Kenney]

Why, ain't that strange. I see them??? I'll bet my cookies are letting me see them. I deleted the attached images after inserting them in the post. I will reattach them.

Robert

 

[ronmc1954]

Just wondering, did you change the cam shaft when you rebuilt the motor?

 

[Robert Kenney]

Ron,

ooops I forgot to mention that I had thte cam reground by schneider a bit bigger, and installed .050 longer pushrods to comp for smaller base circle after regrind. I have .075 lifter preload.
Robert

 

[ronmc1954]

Well we are now beyond my limited knowledge . The reason I ask I did just that. I change my lifters without changing the cam and about a year later I lost a lobe on the cam. The wear on your lifters is very similar to the way mine looked.
Not much help sorry.
Ron

 

[Robert Kenney]

Ok,

progress report, the hardness test out come is 64rcs. That is typical on the high side and ok.

I placed the lifter in a precision v-block and ran it under the a
.0001" resolution test indicator.. The face is out of perpendicularity with the center line of the lifter body by .001 across the face out side of the wear area.. Possible cause for lack of rotation?....... Maybe.

The cam is still ok when checked for lobe lift on all lobes and the nose surfaces look good. Lobes also look to have enough offset to the lifter bores(.0625 visually) to induce proper rotation.



Robert

 

[Michael Mayben]

I've been doing some extensive research regarding this issue Robert since it seems to be much more prevalent amongst the 152/196 motors than on the sv apps. Same for abnormal cam lobe wear even though the exact same lubrication scenario is used in both engine designs.

Here's the short version of this morning's discussion with dave wimsett who has been responsible for thousands of nascar motors along with championship offshore powerboat motors, etc.

We know your lifters are not rotating. The issue is not the lifter itself. All lifters marketed in the u.s. Come from two primary manufacturing sources, johnson and stanadyne. Dave will use no lifter other than a johnson-source item. Clevite, elgin, sealed power, et al come from the same root manufacturer. Engine builders source those lifters in flats of 144 units shipped in trays. He sez that "lifter failure" per se is unheard of, in the case of hydraulic lifters, the issues are caused by lack of proper engine maintenance over time (poor oil change habits or wrong oil as dick the swepco dude has trained us!).

In actually, the so-called "chevrolet" nascar motors that dave /dei built used IH hydraulic lifters that were "fudged" into a solid lifter application, that was/is a "rules" workaround. He still does that on the chev sprint car motors he builds. Who'da thunk???

I've also used several sets of lifters in sv apps myself, both elgin-brand name and clevite. They are identical!!! The guts are totally identical and can interchange! And I've not had any long-term issues with them, there is a set of elgins in my beater motor right now, about 17k miles on 'em in a year anda half. Running wix filter with wallyworld "supertech" 20w-50.

Dave thinks (and again he's not seen your motor!), there are two possible root causes for the non-rotation scenario:

1) the cam is not ground correctly. He knows that schnieder does know exactly how to grind the bumps to provide rotation. He's got much experience with their product including IH apps, along with his main cam provider which is delta. But he sez anyone can make a mistake in the grind. So he thinks you should pop the cam into the vee blocks and look at the bumps.

2) the lifter bores are not in the correct position for the cam lobe location when the block was machined 40+ years ago! Without the oem blueprint callouts, he can't remember what the nominal bore offset "should" be. And we can not compare these machining of these blocks with a "similar" sv 304. The 4 banger stuff is a machining operation unto itself and though "similar", they are not identical dimension-wise when ya get down to hairsplits like this. He does know that as he spent much time on the transfer line in the engine plants as part of his training as a "factory dude"!

The lifter bore location should be something easy enough for you to check given your level of knowledge and equipment on hand. And I have two 152 motors on the stands now that I can make a comparison with if you tell me exactly how you want that done so I do the check same as you! The cams need to come out of those motors anyway so they can be sent off as cores for grinding, so no big deal. The lifters from one of 'em are already out. Those were all rotating, I was watching the lubrication pattern on that motor while the #4 cam bearing failed before my eyes! All show a worn cam lobe interface with evidence they had rotated through their entire career!

Dave would "adjust" the lifter bore location by actually pushing the cam to the rear in a custom machining operation, that was a common nascar engine build practice also when he "fudged" the thrust surfaces within the rules. That would involve shimming the cam off the gear, along with possibly having to "work" the rear plate. That's a effective workaround since the lifter bores cannot be shifted in the block at this point!

Dave would be more than happy to talk yore arm off about this if ya wanna call him! He will be majorly involved in the build up of the 196 motors that dantastic and I are gonna do inna side-by-side soon to come! I've explained your "role" around here and I know you and dave speak the same lingo!!!

The lifters that will soon be in stock at ihon are sourced from johnson, though they will have a private label id on the boxes. Sets of four will be the normal stocking pattern, though singles May be sourced also, along with the aforementioned flats. If dave was gonna build a nascar motor tonite, the lifters would come right out of the same lot that is in transit to ihon right now (or will be as soon as I leave here with 'em!).

 

[Charles Brown]

Michael,
why can the lifter bores not be shifted at this point? Its fairly common practice, for instance, among the Ford "385 series" racing engine builders to bore and bush the lifter bores, usually for reasons of oil control, but also to reposition the bore centerlines themselves. Whether such an operation is actually cost effective for IH shizznitt is obviously a horse of a whole different color (I'm thinking not).
Charlie

p.s. Not trying to stir the pot, just trying to throw out possible options for saving/improving this crap.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Charles,
you are correct about bushing the bores and moving them if it would help. The process is costly relative to shifting the cam fore or aft to correct an issue. I can place the stick in the lathe face the end and move it forward for very little or shim the end to move it back.

I am developing a roller cam and lifters for the IH 4 banger (still a ways off). I will use off the shelf domestic roller lifters for that particular application. Will have the typical retrofit tie bar to prevent rotation. If it works well I will continue with the sv line.


The IH is a perfect candidate with it's 1" lifter bore for which bushings are available, and cam plate which is required for the roller cam front to back position control...

The bores will be blue printed for exact alignment and clearance.001".


Robert

 

[Eric VanBuren]

Since this engine is 30+ years old I don't think that the lifter bore alignment is the issue, unless of course this engine had died 30 years ago due to this issue. If the cam that came out was not flat and that was the one you sent to be reground then then the lobe locations on the cam should be correct as well. Plus you state that you can visually see some offset.

That leaves only improper grinding of the cam and/or lifters as the cause. What does the wear pattern look like on the base circle of the cam, is it a narrow band until the ramp or is it wide? Though from the looks of those lifters I think I already know the answer.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Dam I wish charlie and krew lived closer (and Robert!)!

By the way Robert, chawlee commutes in granpa's 152-powered s800 (and has for many years!)...I don't recall if it's ever been down for anything other than the same old 1904 carb issues. I built him a fresh one so he'd have it when he came back from the sandbox the last time and I still have granpa's core (with broken throttle shaft) sittin' inna box, don't wanna molest it as it's a family heirloom that will be returned to his kidz sumday!

And the carb I sent chawlee did end up with the "economizer" issue also, so I sent him the one outta my carb so he could get to work, since then I replaced my own. One of those main wells I sent ya was chawlee's granpa, the one that is actually complete iirc.

Many of the 1904 carbs I see/do are very well traveled!

My take on the "lifter bore" location is...if it was a machining issue back when the block was done on the transfer line in 1963 or so, then the original cam/lifter interface woulda been scruud also. But we do know that is a fairly "common" possibility regarding any engine due to manufacturing tolerances and the fact the end result only becomes noticeable after a fairly extended period of operation.

And Robert builds enuff race motors to know that he has seen that in the past and addresses that now (bushing the bores) on his race blocks.

I'm really anxious to rip into the 196 inna few weeks to see what wear patterns it has since this subject came up. And at the same time I'll rip the cams outta the two 152 units I have and check 'em. The 196 is a heavy top end oiler, oil pressure is excellent, even though it set non-rotated for at least 12 years and the story prior to that is unknown. If it wasn't for the heavy piston slap in #1, I'd not even pull it down, but right now the opportunity is timely so we'll see what it looks like.

And yore "proto" roller hydraulics May need to land in that motor too for sum longterm durability testing! Dave mentioned the same last night when he dropped off the engine kits.

 

[Charles Brown]

You know, for grins and giggles, I was going to throw in that the 1" lifter bore of the I-4/sv's corresponded to the roller lifter diameter used in top fuel hemis. But I didn't say anything because I thought it was too over the top! The next thing your guys will be telling me is your modding that aluminum 152 manifold to bolt up a 6-71 blower, and are going dump some 95% pop in the gas tank.

 

[Michael Mayben]

In my case charlie...I know my limits! And the limits are always defined by dinero around here! So the 6-71 is out, but I bet Robert has some on his shop floor!

But, I always did have a soft spot for paxton/mcculloch air pumps! Had one for about three months onna corvair in '66 (not 1866). So...there is plenty room for a pump on the 196...another reason why I'm putting the extra effort in the intake manifold.

Robert coulda done inna 'bout an hour what took me two weeks of redneckin'. But then, his chevmotor roller lifters don't rotate either!

And...no alkeehole in my stuff! This dam "increased percentage" alkeegass shit we got now is killin' carbs left and right, including one of my own this past weekend! More to come on that subject! Eat and drink that corn, it's food! Don't burn it!

 

[Robert Kenney]

you know, for grins and giggles, I was going to throw in that the 1" lifter bore of the I-4/sv's corresponded to the roller lifter diameter used in top fuel hemis. But I didn't say anything because I thought it was too over the top! The next thing your guys will be telling me is your modding that aluminum 152 manifold to bolt up a 6-71 blower, and are going dump some 95% pop in the gas tank.

Hmmmm, solids in a IH. With jesel adjustable rockers. I like it

we could do a double through down nitro IH for Jeff to run. Would impress the hell out of the guys to see a Scout 80 go 6.60 et @ 210 mph. I had considered it.doubt to could be made competitive in a fuel class but a/gas or b/gas it is doable imo. A/gas is a 7.60 et index and would require about 1800hp while b/gas is a 8.60 index and would need about 1000 hp.

Stretch the wheel base to 110-120" and build a tubular nhra spec frame and go racing.

We used to run our willis gasser on 15% to run b/gas before we put a 14-71 blower on it to run a/gas.. I loved the way is sounded on juice.

We can dream,....right???

Robert

 

[Charles Brown]

Robert, your my hero! I think you and dave wamsett have got to twist mm into cracking open those tight fists to drop some coin on a full boat, forced induction, fully rollerized valvetrain 196. Whose gonna port and flow the prototype aluminum heads? Mm, if'n you want to talk limits, I know you been there, tryin' to keep three teenage mouths in chow, and figure someway to be ready to put them through junior college. Besides, I could of swore, my IH shop manual prohibits the use of any other tools and materials besides duct tape, gorilla glue and baling wire. Yep, I sure do wish I lived a lot closer to you guys!

Semper FI!

 

[Robert Kenney]

Now for the boring stuff again..
I talked to schneider cams (the man) regarding the lobe heal taper they grind in their IH cams and the assumed lifter to bore clearance they use when figuring the needed taper to grind.
They were not aware the IH lifter clearance was as high as
.004" (max range spec). The typical GM is .001-.0015

first schneider puts about .0015" taper on those .625 wide IH lobes.. That works out to .140 degrees of taper

secondly the fact that IH sv and 4 cylinders are designed with
.0035 nominal lifter to bore clearance which allows the lifter to rock .100 degrees at the face basically negates the taper on the cam. The rotation is induced partly the face of the lifter to cam heal differential angle. No differance and there will more likely not be much rotation and no apparent wear patern visible on the lobe.

Third, schneider only uses johnson lifters period. They are suposed to have a convex face which also helps with rotation.. Like I said the lifters I installed were dead flat.. I need a set on johnson lifters like carried by IH Parts America and recommended by dave to measure and compare with the stanadyne lifters which are like the ones I installed..

I May have a new one left from my original set

variables that effect lifter rotation as I see it are:

1) cam lobe taper( angle) .0015"
2) lifter to bore clearance .0035"
3) cam lobe to lifter bore for and aft offset (unknown)
4) lifter face curvature (unknown)
5) bore (lifter) geometry (unknown)
6) lifter body finish ( crappy on lifters installed as compared to IH oem units)

Robert

 

[Michael Mayben]

This is so freakin' cool!!! Facts from tha man!

Ya ain't gonna find schnizz like this anywhere else out in ihland!

Guess what...the regrind 152 cam I told ya about will be placed at the shop door in about an hour so I can deliver to ihon. I've already packed the johnson lifters so I can't look at the flats...but I will when Jeff inspects the kit contents against the invoice.

I have "heard" about the slight convex on lifters but never actually measured that, but it does make sense, so it actually increases the point load on the cam lobe down to a very close number to promote initial rotation???... I just soak and stab. Do ya think that can be eyeballed with a ground parallel bar?? But I noticed also the tech stuff in the johnson info sez to not pump 'em? Know anything about that?

Dam this is fun lernin' new stuff from folks that know stuff!

 

[Robert Kenney]

this is so freakin' cool!!! Facts from tha man!

Ya ain't gonna find schnizz like this anywhere else out in ihland!

Guess what...the regrind 152 cam I told ya about will be placed at the shop door in about an hour so I can deliver to ihon. I've already packed the johnson lifters so I can't look at the flats...but I will when Jeff inspects the kit contents against the invoice.

I have "heard" about the slight convex on lifters but never actually measured that, but it does make sense, so it actually increases the point load on the cam lobe down to a very close number to promote initial rotation???... I just soak and stab. Do ya think that can be eyeballed with a ground parallel bar?? But I noticed also the tech stuff in the johnson info sez to not pump 'em? Know anything about that?

Dam this is fun lernin' new stuff from folks that know stuff!

"the man" was cool when I discussed my regrind in 05' and he was cool today..

I should think a ground straight edge would show the face profile. It otta rock around or show up against a light source. I could also run under the test indicator after I get mine..

Also place the straight edge on the heel's of two adjacent lobes of the cam and see if you can see the taper. If you have a surface plate and two matching precision v-blocks you could measure the taper.

I believe the explanation you gave May be correct mm. Would seem to spin about the running circle or circular contact point better than simply ride on the edge of the tapered lobe.. Yeep soakin and stabin.. Look out we May be in for a finger lashin for admitt'in the former.

I have read in many places, do not prepump the lifters. I never have, just lube the face with cam and lifter goo and oil the body in motor oil..

Robert