Odd Lifter Wear Pattern in 152

greg r said:
sorry to read about your lifter luck. I've never seen "flat" lifters out of a box, but sh** happens I suppose. I found this article at camcraft, you probably already know most of it. I learned a few things from it, particularly in the lubes area. I suppose as the oils get more 'n more legislated, I'll be buy'in more "break in lube" for lube.
camcraft cams - cam failures: some thoughts on cam and lifter wear
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That info is seriously out of date and incorrect, yes the epa did legislate reduced zinc and phosporous levels but did not eliminate it entirely as they state. This did affect oils labeled "sm" for spark ignition engines first and then later the "cj-4" oils for compression ignition engines. While the "sm" spec reduced the zinc limit below the IH minimum spec of 1000ppm "cj-4" oils can still contain up to about 1200ppm, doesn't mean that they all do, but they can. The engine supplier I use specs delo or rotella for their warranty requirements and other than a few engines that we installed right after the change to "sm" spec oils, before we and the rebuilder knew about the change, we have not had any cam failures. This is in a fleet of sbc powered p-30's that does daily home delivery, some units exceeding 200mi and 300 stops per day so some of those engines are nearing 100k running on exclusively delo 15-40. No failures in the dt466, t444, t444e, 6.5l powered IH/navistar/workhorse either and many of those are 50k per year rigs as well.

Long story short there is no need for any of the special additives if used with a known high quality "cj-4" or one of the still available "sl" oils that carry only the "sl" designation w/o "sm" on the label.

For the real story straight from the main source for engine oil additives check out the lubrizol corporation Or www.cj-4.com
 
eric vanburen said:
that info is seriously out of date and incorrect, yes the epa did legislate reduced zinc and phosporous levels but did not eliminate it entirely as they state. This did affect oils labeled "sm" for spark ignition engines first and then later the "cj-4" oils for compression ignition engines. While the "sm" spec reduced the zinc limit below the IH minimum spec of 1000ppm "cj-4" oils can still contain up to about 1200ppm, doesn't mean that they all do, but they can. The engine supplier I use specs delo or rotella for their warranty requirements and other than a few engines that we installed right after the change to "sm" spec oils, before we and the rebuilder knew about the change, we have not had any cam failures. This is in a fleet of sbc powered p-30's that does daily home delivery, some units exceeding 200mi and 300 stops per day so some of those engines are nearing 100k running on exclusively delo 15-40. No failures in the dt466, t444, t444e, 6.5l powered IH/navistar/workhorse either and many of those are 50k per year rigs as well.

Long story short there is no need for any of the special additives if used with a known high quality "cj-4" or one of the still available "sl" oils that carry only the "sl" designation w/o "sm" on the label.

For the real story straight from the main source for engine oil additives check out the lubrizol corporation Or www.cj-4.com
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Actually eric,

for the business cam craft( core competency) is in, it is not out of date by any stretch of the imagination. Any self respecting performance engine builder understands and to much invested in the engine to risk low wear package.

They grind cams that can have 350+ # open pressure and 150 seat. The fleet you claim to know May have 190# and 88 you could probably use straight mineral oil with 0 ppm zn and see no issues. When engines are run regularly the cams don't "dry out" and scuffing is rare. Sooooo.

I have over $10k invested in the 409 in my roadster and will only listen to info applied in like situations. No real problem erroring on the safe side but catastrophe if not.

Rk
 
Robert kenney said:
actually eric,



they grind cams that can have 350+ # open pressure and 150 seat. The fleet you claim to know May have 190# and 88 you could probably use straight mineral oil with 0 ppm zn and see no issues. When engines are run regularly the cams don't "dry out" and scuffing is rare. Sooooo.


Rk
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Yes the engines I am working on are "stock" engines but using "sm" spec oil resulted in 3 cam failures in engines that had around 15k. And these engines do a fair amount of idling while the driver is out of the truck making the delivery, and during idle cam lubrication is minimal.


And their statement that all zinc was removed is just plain bs.

I agree on a $10k engine to err on the side of safety by using something like the vr-1 racing oil like you do, but for the sv "sl" and "cj-4" will work just fine.
 
eric vanburen said:
I agree on a $10k engine to err on the side of safety by using something like the vr-1 racing oil like you do, but for the sv "sl" and "cj-4" will work just fine.
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The cost differential between vr-1 and what ever border line spec one choses to use is very minimal. Whether the engine cost 1 or 10 k is really not at issue here. What is, is what best protects "all" engine load levels.

To make a statement that greg's post contained invalid info serves no purpose here when taken in context.

I honestly believe you only want to rub people not be a productive member of this board.
Rk
 
Robert kenney said:
the cost differential between vr-1 and what ever border line spec one choses to use is very minimal. Whether the engine cost 1 or 10 k is really not at issue here. What is, is what best protects "all" engine load levels.

To make a statement that greg's post contained invalid info serves no purpose here when taken in context.

I honestly believe you only want to rub people not be a productive member of this board.
Rk
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Delo le 15-40 is far from a borderline spec oil, in fact it is one of the most respected, if not the most respected oil in the trucking industry. With 1300 ppm zinc and 1200 ppm phosphorus it is the same as what you gave for the vr-1. Plus it has a much better detergent package than any "racing oil".


https://www.cbest.chevron.com/generated/msds/pds29828827.pdf

I am not here to rub any one just trying to help keep this board fact based, nothing against greg or his post but the info in the link he provided is from the "sky is falling" days when the reduced zinc level oils were introduced and cam failures were occurring with the new "sm" spec oils. In particular this portion:

why then are we seeing an increase in cam failure? There are several contributing factors. the first and likely primary factor is the Lack of zinc Additive in most of today’s oils. as I understand it, all oils for highway use have no zinc. zinc has, for many years, been one of the primary antiwear additives in motor oils. due to factors involving contamination of catalytic converters, zinc has been outlawed in motor oils for highway use. There has been a decrease in zinc content for several years but as of January 1, 2004, it is eliminated in all oils for highway use. If an oil contains zinc, it must be labeled “ for off road use only” or “not for highway use”. Diesel oils May be an exception. Several of our racing customers have switched to 15w40 diesel oil with good results. (6/1/2007 word is out that zinc has now been removed or substantially reduced in the diesel oils)
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Which while it contains some facts Has completely false info as well.
 
Michael,
did you get a chance to check out the johnson lifters??
I am going into IH withdrawl.:icon_eek: I need to drive the old pig .. :gringrin:

I made an adjustable legnth pushrod so I can reverify the lifter preload before I button it back up.

Robert
 
Ihon was closed on Monday, but we immediately shipped the engine kit with the lifters anyway so the customer would not be held up!

There are more lifters in stock though here now, so I'll go take alook in the nextr hour and make a comparison.

Good thang ya reminded me, yawl have to do that all the time!
 
Don't have an info on the reground cam. Turns out the cam that was shipped to us with the engine kit was wrong, nearly 6" too short! There is a replacement enroute to us now done onna 152 core I sent to the supplier last week. Two more will go up to 'em next week so cams will be a stocking item at ihon in the future, one will be a stocker...the other core will stay with the grinder and will be used to grind to any customer's specification.

Here's lifter poop....

First off...jinuwine International/navistar nos lifters, right out of a sealed package, IH p/n 217158r2. These items are of the "three ring" identification design which denotes the root manufacturer. Od is 0.997". Using a micrometer, those lifters show a nominal 0.002" "crown" when checked from edge to centerline.

The navistar packaging shows a "supplier" code and supplier part number, maybe I can come up with that source info at some point. I did ask that question of a pair of extremely knowledgeable, oldtyme IH dudes yesterday, but they were unsure of the correct answer to that question.

The johnson/epwi lifters are also of the "three ring" identification design. Epwi p/n ha 855. Od is 0.997". And after measuring several of 'em, the "crown" averages 0.0015".

The pic shows the "tool marks" perfectly on the johnson lifter, the navistar item had a real faint pattern which was similar.

So that confirms what schneider, our cam grinder, and dave advises regarding what makes the lifters spin!

Need anything else? Lemme know asap, I'll be leaving Grass Valley early Thursday to head home.
 

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Well....it's update time,

after jawing with mr. Mayben about the johnson lifters he measured, I called Jeff and ordered me a set of 8 so I could butten the pig back up. Like clock work they were sitting on my porch when I got home from the 9-5.

I measured the face curvature and got .001 worth of convex grind on the new lifters.
I verified my lifter preload @ .075 and stuck it back together.

It fired right up and after clattering for 5 minutes @1800 while the lifters pumped up it was 15 more minutes @ 1800 to properly bed the new lifters in to the old cam(if that can happen). It is nice and quiet at all rpm's. I drove it 20 miles on the freeway to make sure it had some good high rpm time on it before parking it...

I will see in the morning if it is still quiet. It is as good as it is going to get until the gt2854r and dual delortos go on for more poop.

Rk
 
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This morning I started it up and what do you know, silence!!!!

Drove it around on a few errands....silence..

Hot,cold 500-1000-4000 only the purr of a happy IH :smilewinkgrin:


Robert
 
I know this is a old post, but the wear pattern you ran into Robert on you 4 cylinder, I ran into the same issue on my 392. I pulled the lifters out for #1, making noise on that cylinder, and had the goofy wear pattern on one of the lifters. The right bank of the engine does not make any noise. Only #1 on the left bank, and its getting oil.
 
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