No power

[jjthejetplane50]

So I have been working on a buddy's 1972 Scout 2 and at first it was a crank but no start but after replacing the ignition coil and the ignition control module it got Spark. And then I put a small shot of gas down the carb since the tank was empty just to see if it would kick for us and after some trial and error it finally kicked on for a brief moment and I wanted to show my buddy of it running for a moment. And then there was no power for anything I couldn't crank it, I couldn't turn on the lights, I couldn't turn on anything and I checked the battery see if the connectors might have gotten loose and I also checked the glass fuses and none of them were blown so I have no idea what could be wrong. If somebody could point me in the right direction that would be great

 

[ihpartsjeff]

Wiggle the firewall plugs, especially the one with the big blue wires, and see if things come back to life.

 

[jjthejetplane50]

Wiggle the firewall plugs, especially the one with the big blue wires, and see if things come back to life.

Thank you for the advice but sadly it did not work is there anything else it could be?

 

[stwilegar]

Agreed. The bulkhead connectors on my 72 were trashed and so was the ignition switch which might be an issue as well. Start with a wiggle of your bulkhead connection.

 

[jjthejetplane50]

So I have been working on a buddy's 1972 Scout 2 and at first it was a crank but no start but after replacing the ignition coil and the ignition control module it got Spark. And then I put a small shot of gas down the carb since the tank was empty just to see if it would kick for us and after some trial and error it finally kicked on for a brief moment and I wanted to show my buddy of it running for a moment. And then there was no power for anything I couldn't crank it, I couldn't turn on the lights, I couldn't turn on anything and I checked the battery see if the connectors might have gotten loose and I also checked the glass fuses and none of them were blown so I have no idea what could be wrong. If somebody could point me in the right direction that would be great

Update I figured out what it was, it was the starter solenoid so I believe what happened is when I was cranking the truck and I got it to kick on I might have burnt the solenoid on accident

 

[jjthejetplane50]

Update I figured out what it was, it was the starter solenoid so I believe what happened is when I was cranking the truck and I got it to kick on I might have burnt the solenoid on accident

Second update, so I've had an interesting event with this truck so I have power now and I tried to crank it after I replaced the starter and it kept on cranking even though I turned off the ignition and took out the key and it only happened once but the positive red wire got really hot weirdly so I got it unhooked in time and probably a few hours later after I let everything cool off I tried to crank it again and it cranked normally and then it didn't and I could hear the starter spinning but it definitely wasn't engaging so I stopped cranking it and then checked on the starter felt around and the solenoid was really hot. So now I am really confused of what is going on with this truck and I took pictures before I replaced the starter so everything's wired up correctly, I checked the wires going to it and they seem to be in good condition nothing melted or nicked to cause it to Short. So should I just replace the whole wiring harness at this point or should I try to find a wiring diagram because this is the first time I had a vehicle give me this much trouble with electrical, if anybody has any advice and/or if they went through something similar what did you do to fix it? Anything will be deeply appreciated

 

[Scoutboy74]

The assumption here being that the wiring was correct before parts were replaced. It's never a bad idea to have a service manual on hand with wiring diagrams to refer to. No one will ever advise against doing that. Post some well lit and focused pics clearly showing the wiring at the starter solenoid. I can tell you what should and shouldn't be there.

 

[jjthejetplane50]

The assumption here being that the wiring was correct before parts were replaced. It's never a bad idea to have a service manual on hand with wiring diagrams to refer to. No one will ever advise against doing that. Post some well lit and focused pics clearly showing the wiring at the starter solenoid. I can tell you what should and shouldn't be there.

 

[jjthejetplane50]

 

[Scoutboy74]

Ok thanks. Those all look to be factory terminations. The two wires with the large ring terminals can only go one place and you have them there. The Yellow/whitish and green wires with small eyelets just need to be hooked to the right small terminals. The IGN feed, usually white, needs to go to the 'S' labeled terminal. The 'R' terminal is for the wire that runs up to the coil positive terminal...usually green. So just verify that those two aren't reversed there at the solenoid. There's one wire missing from this location. There should be a slightly thicker 12 gauge wire connected to the large solenoid terminal. This would be your main power feed into the cabin via the firewall bulkhead connector. Not sure how you're getting any power into the cabin at all without that wire hooked up. Something's not right. Also, does this Scout have an auto or manual trans?

 

[jjthejetplane50]

Ok thanks. Those all look to be factory terminations. The two wires with the large ring terminals can only go one place and you have them there. The Yellow/whitish and green wires with small eyelets just need to be hooked to the right small terminals. The IGN feed, usually white, needs to go to the 'S' labeled terminal. The 'R' terminal is for the wire that runs up to the coil positive terminal...usually green. So just verify that those two aren't reversed there at the solenoid. There's one wire missing from this location. There should be a slightly thicker 12 gauge wire connected to the large solenoid terminal. This would be your main power feed into the cabin via the firewall bulkhead connector. Not sure how you're getting any power into the cabin at all without that wire hooked up. Something's not right. Also, does this Scout have an auto or manual trans?

It was hard to see do to the tape that I had on it just to make sure all the wires were put back together correctly but the blue wire is there and the Scout is a 304 engine with a manual transmission and it's also a 4x4 if that helps

 

[Scoutboy74]

Yeah it was totally hidden from view in the other pic. Assuming that yellow looking wire is the ignition signal from your column switch, then that all seems to be correct as you initially stated. The manual transmission eliminates a couple other potential suspects. So the next junction that is a well known problem area is the main bulkhead connector that most of those solenoid wires pass through. I know this has already been discussed here by others, but given your issues, it's well worth another closer and better look at all of the pins on both halves of the connector. They were just an assembly line convenience and never intended to still be passing clean current through every time 50 years down the road. I've yet to see one of them on a pre-'78 Scout that's not tits up by now.

 

[jjthejetplane50]

Yeah it was totally hidden from view in the other pic. Assuming that yellow looking wire is the ignition signal from your column switch, then that all seems to be correct as you initially stated. The manual transmission eliminates a couple other potential suspects. So the next junction that is a well known problem area is the main bulkhead connector that most of those solenoid wires pass through. I know this has already been discussed here by others, but given your issues, it's well worth another closer and better look at all of the pins on both halves of the connector. They were just an assembly line convenience and never intended to still be passing clean current through every time 50 years down the road. I've yet to see one of them on a pre-'78 Scout that's not tits up by now.

Ok, well I'll keep experimenting and whatnot and see if I figure it out. But just in case I might put a new wiring harness on it, is there anything you would recommend?

 

[Scoutboy74]

That's a pretty broad question. Changing the wiring harness is a big project. In cases where the existing harness is just too butchered or clapped out for whatever reason, redoing the wiring harness becomes desirable, if not absolutely necessary. But when the existing harness is still largely in good overall condition, with only a couple minor bad spots that can be surgically removed or bypassed, then replacing the whole thing just to fix one little bad spot is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. You just need to assess the overall condition to decide if the juice is worth the squeeze or not. If you want to post some good pics of the under hood wiring from several different angles and focus in on that BHC, for some added input, you're more than welcome to do so.

 

[jjthejetplane50]

That's a pretty broad question. Changing the wiring harness is a big project. In cases where the existing harness is just too butchered or clapped out for whatever reason, redoing the wiring harness becomes desirable, if not absolutely necessary. But when the existing harness is still largely in good overall condition, with only a couple minor bad spots that can be surgically removed or bypassed, then replacing the whole thing just to fix one little bad spot is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. You just need to assess the overall condition to decide if the juice is worth the squeeze or not. If you want to post some good pics of the under hood wiring from several different angles and focus in on that BHC, for some added input, you're more than welcome to do so.

 

[Scoutboy74]

Now we're getting somewhere. This is why good pictures are so VITAL for doing this long distance cyber-diagnosis! Really helps to see what you see. What I'm seeing so far is fairly typical of these rigs that have lived a not so sheltered life. I've seen better, but I've definitely seen worse. The loose side of your BHC itself doesn't look terrible. Right off the bat though, I can see an issue that definitely needs to be addressed. Starting with the first or top pic in this series, focus in on the center of that pic, and you'll see a blue wire with a '14' on it. Then you'll see a totally roached out connection between that wire and a red wire with a wierd, yellow doohicky on it. That is a fusible link, also known as a slow-blow fuse. That junction between those red and blue wires needs to be cut out and replaced, especially considering how close it is to that metal heater control cable. That's an electrical fire waiting to happen. Unhook your battery cable now and leave it unhooked until you've at least cut out that bad junction and replaced it with a fully insulated splice that will prevent the chance of exposed wire strands from contacting any nearby metal. Circuit 14 is your blue wire coming from the starter solenoid. It is always HOT if your battery is hooked up. So it is imperative that no portion of that wire from beginning to end ever come in contact with chassis ground. If that does happen, the fusible link is there to hopefully blow and break the circuit so that your entire harness and vehicle doesn't go up in flames. I'll have more observations, but this is urgent unough for you to take care of now.

 

[Scoutboy74]

What type of ignition system does this have? Breaker points, or some type of electronic module? If you don't know the answer, we need to figure it out. Might as well pop the distributor cap off and show me a picture of the distributor innards with cap removed.

 

[jjthejetplane50]

What type of ignition system does this have? Breaker points, or some type of electronic module? If you don't know the answer, we need to figure it out. Might as well pop the distributor cap off and show me a picture of the distributor innards with cap removed.

I don't know what type of ignition system it has but I do know that the distributor cap was recently replaced with the spark plug wires and the ignition coil and we also replace the ignition control module which is that gold box and after we get all that and I cranked it up it kicked on for a moment and then we had the no power situation. Now with the fusible link should I replace the whole thing or should I just skip it and just cut it out? Also I don't know if I mentioned this but I did try to start it recently and the starter spun but it didn't engage which I might need to charge the battery or it could be something, I just thought I'd mention it just in case

 

[Scoutboy74]

The plot thickens. If this Scout is truly a '72 model and not a '75 or '76 masquerading as a '72, then what happened is some prior owner swapped out the original points distributor in favor of this GB setup from a later year Scout. The GB setup is a primitive electronic ignition system that came along in the mid-70's and lasted for a couple years before thankfully being phased out in favor of the more advanced Prestolite electronic ignition system in the late 70's. At the risk of redundancy and overstating, a '72 would have originally had a breaker points distributor, which is obviously long gone now. So this would explain why the factory resistor wire that originally fed power to the coil has been cut off short at the BHC plug. It's the wire with the odd, cloth sleeve over the yellow insulation and now has a blue plastic blade connector crimped on.

If the fusible link hasn't already blown, then it's still good and can be kept in place. It's a good safety measure. If it has blown, you can get replacements just like it at a parts store. I think that yellow wing on it is a color code. You would want to use one that is the same rating or wire gauge as that one is. If it has continuity on both ends, then it's still good.

The starter spinning without cranking the engine often indicates a sticking bendix drive in the starter motor. It's basically a sliding gear that meshes with the flywheel to rotate the engine over and then unmeshes once the key is released. The starter motor doesn't just stop instantly once you release the key. It takes several seconds to wind down to a stop. That's why you need that gear to mesh and then unmesh once the engine has barked off so that the starter drive doesn't stay meshed with the flywheel while the engine is running. If that gear isn't meshing with the flywheel, then the motor won't rotate the engine over. I know you say you put a "new" starter on, but are you sure it wasn't just a cheap reman? Reman stuff is often junk right out of the box these days. Hopefully you didn't surrender the orignal starter as a core. You'd likely be better off with a new solenoid mounted to the old starter. A truly new starter is going to cost a good bit more than an el cheapo reman will.

 

[jjthejetplane50]

The plot thickens. If this Scout is truly a '72 model and not a '75 or '76 masquerading as a '72, then what happened is some prior owner swapped out the original points distributor in favor of this GB setup from a later year Scout. The GB setup is a primitive electronic ignition system that came along in the mid-70's and lasted for a couple years before thankfully being phased out in favor of the more advanced Prestolite electronic ignition system in the late 70's. At the risk of redundancy and overstating, a '72 would have originally had a breaker points distributor, which is obviously long gone now. So this would explain why the factory resistor wire that originally fed power to the coil has been cut off short at the BHC plug. It's the wire with the odd, cloth sleeve over the yellow insulation and now has a blue plastic blade connector crimped on.

If the fusible link hasn't already blown, then it's still good and can be kept in place. It's a good safety measure. If it has blown, you can get replacements just like it at a parts store. I think that yellow wing on it is a color code. You would want to use one that is the same rating or wire gauge as that one is. If it has continuity on both ends, then it's still good.

The starter spinning without cranking the engine often indicates a sticking bendix drive in the starter motor. It's basically a sliding gear that meshes with the flywheel to rotate the engine over and then unmeshes once the key is released. The starter motor doesn't just stop instantly once you release the key. It takes several seconds to wind down to a stop. That's why you need that gear to mesh and then unmesh once the engine has barked off so that the starter drive doesn't stay meshed with the flywheel while the engine is running. If that gear isn't meshing with the flywheel, then the motor won't rotate the engine over. I know you say you put a "new" starter on, but are you sure it wasn't just a cheap reman? Reman stuff is often junk right out of the box these days. Hopefully you didn't surrender the orignal starter as a core. You'd likely be better off with a new solenoid mounted to the old starter. A truly new starter is going to cost a good bit more than an el cheapo reman will.

Well it could be a 73 but the old owner was adamant that it was a 72 but the insurance on it said it was a 73 so we don't really know but we still have the old starter so I might fix it and slap it back on because I did a test with it with the battery and it seemed like it still worked so when it cools off I'll try to slap it back on and see if we have any luck. I know my buddy got the starter for roughly 150 so it could possibly be it I know when I try to start it with the new starter it did kick on it's just not kicking on anymore so it's completely possible something failed with the new one. I'll get back with you once I fixed the fusible link and replace the starter