Mark Pietz
Member
looks good Mark. Can't wait to see it in person
Soon, Matt. We'll make it happen!
Limited disassembly of a 1980 IC 196
- Thread starter Mark Pietz
- Start date
Soon, Matt. We'll make it happen!
Mark Pietz
Member
It's alive!!!!!!!!!!!
Edit: I have posed the link at the bottom of this post.
Here's the deal. I cranked it over to build up oil pressure to ensure that oil was getting to the turbo. In fact, the carb filled quickly and the darn thing fired off!!!! So I let it run (in fact the turbo had plenty of oil, so no harm done) and after five minutes, the choke came off and it settled down to a reasonable idle.
There was lots of smoke as oil residue burned off the new exhaust piping, manifolds, etc. Lots of smoke, as well as out the tail pipe. I was initially concerned that my turbo's compressor carbon seal was leaking, but that doesn't appear to be the case. There was initial weeping from the top nut on the carb that seals the float needle valve, but that was easily tweaked, as well as some leaks from the turbo feed line. I apparently haven't mastered the art of creating the reverse-flare on the 1/4" oil feed line, but I can fix that, eventually. The large graphite exhaust packing for the turbine housing to header pipe smoked like hell, but that was expected (happened on my corvair corsa), but has passed…frost did develop on the carb adaptor, as expected.
Only need to finish a bracket for the throttle cable and I can actually drive this thing to begin a real "shake down" cruise.
Wooooooowhoooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jfefa9ht7ro
Edit: I have posed the link at the bottom of this post.
Here's the deal. I cranked it over to build up oil pressure to ensure that oil was getting to the turbo. In fact, the carb filled quickly and the darn thing fired off!!!! So I let it run (in fact the turbo had plenty of oil, so no harm done) and after five minutes, the choke came off and it settled down to a reasonable idle.
There was lots of smoke as oil residue burned off the new exhaust piping, manifolds, etc. Lots of smoke, as well as out the tail pipe. I was initially concerned that my turbo's compressor carbon seal was leaking, but that doesn't appear to be the case. There was initial weeping from the top nut on the carb that seals the float needle valve, but that was easily tweaked, as well as some leaks from the turbo feed line. I apparently haven't mastered the art of creating the reverse-flare on the 1/4" oil feed line, but I can fix that, eventually. The large graphite exhaust packing for the turbine housing to header pipe smoked like hell, but that was expected (happened on my corvair corsa), but has passed…frost did develop on the carb adaptor, as expected.
Only need to finish a bracket for the throttle cable and I can actually drive this thing to begin a real "shake down" cruise.
Wooooooowhoooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jfefa9ht7ro
Last edited:
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Hey man that sounds and looks good.
I would pick a mechanically good route for the heater hoses and slide "fire sleeve) over them if you are worried about heat. You might know it by another name but it is this stuff.
I would pick a mechanically good route for the heater hoses and slide "fire sleeve) over them if you are worried about heat. You might know it by another name but it is this stuff.
Mark Pietz
Member
No sh*t. The heat melted the nylon line to the charcoal canister!! And began to melt the nylon gas line! So I need to fix this situation so I don't catch fire….
Edit: I have re-routed the long hose (water pump to core) across the front of the engine and back along the inner edge of the right inner fender. I used a factory "stand off" for the short hose and bolted it to the top flange of the t4 flange/cast iron elbow, but the heat coming off those parts is absolutely brutal, so I really need to get the plastic heater valve out of harm's way! I finished up the throttle bracket and it looks like it belongs where it is. Fairly easy once I figured out what was needed. I have some work to do on that carter sidedraft. The float is small and prone to being overpowered by even 5 psi, so many add regulators and bring that down to 2-3 psi. Also, a return line from the fuel filter was a factory fix, serves as a "bleed" for fixing a hot soak problem. I can duplicate that as well.
These can be messy carbs. Its nastiest "bad manner" is if you have to pump it more than a few times, fuel will either run out of the air cleaner housing, or into the engine, depending upon which way the horizontal carb is sloped at the moment. I'm actually thinking of putting an overflow drain line at the bottom of the air cleaner housing to run down onto the ground. Really. This was actually a factory fix used by nash, and, iirc, GM on the 1st gen corvettes. A drain line!
Edit: I have re-routed the long hose (water pump to core) across the front of the engine and back along the inner edge of the right inner fender. I used a factory "stand off" for the short hose and bolted it to the top flange of the t4 flange/cast iron elbow, but the heat coming off those parts is absolutely brutal, so I really need to get the plastic heater valve out of harm's way! I finished up the throttle bracket and it looks like it belongs where it is. Fairly easy once I figured out what was needed. I have some work to do on that carter sidedraft. The float is small and prone to being overpowered by even 5 psi, so many add regulators and bring that down to 2-3 psi. Also, a return line from the fuel filter was a factory fix, serves as a "bleed" for fixing a hot soak problem. I can duplicate that as well.
These can be messy carbs. Its nastiest "bad manner" is if you have to pump it more than a few times, fuel will either run out of the air cleaner housing, or into the engine, depending upon which way the horizontal carb is sloped at the moment. I'm actually thinking of putting an overflow drain line at the bottom of the air cleaner housing to run down onto the ground. Really. This was actually a factory fix used by nash, and, iirc, GM on the 1st gen corvettes. A drain line!
Last edited:
Mark Pietz
Member
So close to getting it off the stands but getting the carb to run half-way right is now the obstacle. Solutions May realistically take several weeks - or more - since I think I'll need some special bits, plus my day job has thrown me some curves and I'll be traveling more…
the mechanical stuff is easy, the tuning stuff is the pain if you are plowing new ground, which I most certainly am. I'm sure Robert will confirm that fact. Here's what's going on:
1) the carter yh side draft is a good, but not ideal, choice for what I'm doing. But webers are $$$$$, so it's the carter. I have some slop in the linkage which keeps the throttle from closing tightly. That will require a spot weld on the lever-thingie attached to the throttle shaft, re-sizing the hole on my bracket to the little cross-shaft doesn't move around (will post a pic to illustrate, but much of the problem is in this area), and adding an additional return spring and lever to that side of the carb. Again, a pic will illustrate the issues.
2) icing. Heavy frost built up on the exterior of the adaptor between the carb and the turbo compressor housing. The housing itself quickly warms - a relative term - from the a/f mixture it is mixing, even at idle. Yesterday I added the hot air tube from the snorkel back to the cast iron elbow and ran it. The adaptor now seems to only be cold and the frost has been greatly reduced. This shows that sufficient hot (100 degree plus) air is going into the carb. Much as I hate to think about it, I am thinking of pulling the adaptor and adding a block to its underside, by this I mean casting a block of zinc (900 degree melt temp, which is less than aluminum) to the existing aluminum casting, which shouldn't hurt the adaptor, and then drill it for a hot coolant passage. This should cure the adaptor's need for heat.
3) but the real problem is that the carb seems to be loading up and won't rev clean or crisp after warming and the choke comes off. Couple of thoughts on this: to make sure I'm Rich enough under boost while tuning, I put in the richest rod available. This rod/jet combo is custom made for these, since oem rods and jets are no longer available. The jet is a new edelbrock jet and the rods are machined to match oem flow specs, come in stock flow, and 3 richer steps (and three leaner steps) for tuning. I May be running "pig Rich", in fact hope that's the case as the fix is easier. I have the oem stock rod and jet and these were suitable for a 164 c.I. Engine but I'm 32 c.I. Bigger than that. But as this engine turns sloooow by comparison, that May at least put me back in the ballpark for crispness and decent throttle response while running n/a. If this is the problem, then I can tune from there.
I have an 02 sensor in place and found an old k&n a/f meter I forgot I had. I can hook it up to see what my a/f is (has those little lights). At least it will show if I'm running laughably Rich!
4) the yh had a problem with the float controlling fuel shut-off when the original 0.081" inlet float valves went away and were replaced by aftermarket 0.101" valves, or so it is reported. Flooding was common. I went to a custom ball-bearing valve style which helps some, but I am staring at probably running a return line and a regulator to get fuel pump pressure below 5 psi (my Scout pump puts out a healthy 5 psi). These are not insurmountable problems, but do have known solutions. This basic setup on my corsa worked perfectly so I know this can be fixed. It's just frustrating to have to do this so close to getting it on the road.
Edit 1: warmed it up. The k&n a/f meter indicates around 15.1 at idle, and vacuum is steady at 16.5 inches, which is good. Blipping the throttle isn't crisp but seems to be like if you have too much accel pump squirt (know what I mean? What they call "blubbering"?). But this doesn't seem to be reflected in the a/f meter, which runs no richer than the ideal 14.7 "light", maybe one light richer. Fast idle (2,500 rpm) it runs at those same lights, I.e., around 14:1 it May also be partly due to the fact that the intake tract is much longer, I.e., throttle blade much further away from the valve train. The adaptor runs tepid/cool, and the compressor housing is very warm, so whatever fuel that enters the turbo ends up being quite mixed and hot in the manifold, which is one benefit of a turbo. I don't seem to have any vacuum leaks (sprayed starting fluid around all joints and idle did not change). I think I've solved the problem of the leaking oil feed line.
Edit 2: pulled the carb. I definitely need to tighten up the linkage so the carb will return to idle. The little bracket swedged to the end of the throttle shaft is really loose and is half the problem, the other is linkage further down the line. A couple of tack welds will set some things right in this area. Looks like the fitting in the base of the adaptor (nipple for the pcv hose) wasn't screwed in tight. May have been a vacuum leak here. Took carb apart. The special ball-bearing float valve had rough threads and I didn't get it screwed into the carb top cover as far as it could go, so I think that fuel May have been coming into the float bowl around the threads. I have other evidence that the float level May have been way too high, as well. So now I am resetting everything and tomorrow should have it put back together and then we'll see what was what.
Scout is off the stands! Just need to get decent throttle action and a repeatable return to idle before I take it for a drive.
the mechanical stuff is easy, the tuning stuff is the pain if you are plowing new ground, which I most certainly am. I'm sure Robert will confirm that fact. Here's what's going on:
1) the carter yh side draft is a good, but not ideal, choice for what I'm doing. But webers are $$$$$, so it's the carter. I have some slop in the linkage which keeps the throttle from closing tightly. That will require a spot weld on the lever-thingie attached to the throttle shaft, re-sizing the hole on my bracket to the little cross-shaft doesn't move around (will post a pic to illustrate, but much of the problem is in this area), and adding an additional return spring and lever to that side of the carb. Again, a pic will illustrate the issues.
2) icing. Heavy frost built up on the exterior of the adaptor between the carb and the turbo compressor housing. The housing itself quickly warms - a relative term - from the a/f mixture it is mixing, even at idle. Yesterday I added the hot air tube from the snorkel back to the cast iron elbow and ran it. The adaptor now seems to only be cold and the frost has been greatly reduced. This shows that sufficient hot (100 degree plus) air is going into the carb. Much as I hate to think about it, I am thinking of pulling the adaptor and adding a block to its underside, by this I mean casting a block of zinc (900 degree melt temp, which is less than aluminum) to the existing aluminum casting, which shouldn't hurt the adaptor, and then drill it for a hot coolant passage. This should cure the adaptor's need for heat.
3) but the real problem is that the carb seems to be loading up and won't rev clean or crisp after warming and the choke comes off. Couple of thoughts on this: to make sure I'm Rich enough under boost while tuning, I put in the richest rod available. This rod/jet combo is custom made for these, since oem rods and jets are no longer available. The jet is a new edelbrock jet and the rods are machined to match oem flow specs, come in stock flow, and 3 richer steps (and three leaner steps) for tuning. I May be running "pig Rich", in fact hope that's the case as the fix is easier. I have the oem stock rod and jet and these were suitable for a 164 c.I. Engine but I'm 32 c.I. Bigger than that. But as this engine turns sloooow by comparison, that May at least put me back in the ballpark for crispness and decent throttle response while running n/a. If this is the problem, then I can tune from there.
I have an 02 sensor in place and found an old k&n a/f meter I forgot I had. I can hook it up to see what my a/f is (has those little lights). At least it will show if I'm running laughably Rich!
4) the yh had a problem with the float controlling fuel shut-off when the original 0.081" inlet float valves went away and were replaced by aftermarket 0.101" valves, or so it is reported. Flooding was common. I went to a custom ball-bearing valve style which helps some, but I am staring at probably running a return line and a regulator to get fuel pump pressure below 5 psi (my Scout pump puts out a healthy 5 psi). These are not insurmountable problems, but do have known solutions. This basic setup on my corsa worked perfectly so I know this can be fixed. It's just frustrating to have to do this so close to getting it on the road.
Edit 1: warmed it up. The k&n a/f meter indicates around 15.1 at idle, and vacuum is steady at 16.5 inches, which is good. Blipping the throttle isn't crisp but seems to be like if you have too much accel pump squirt (know what I mean? What they call "blubbering"?). But this doesn't seem to be reflected in the a/f meter, which runs no richer than the ideal 14.7 "light", maybe one light richer. Fast idle (2,500 rpm) it runs at those same lights, I.e., around 14:1 it May also be partly due to the fact that the intake tract is much longer, I.e., throttle blade much further away from the valve train. The adaptor runs tepid/cool, and the compressor housing is very warm, so whatever fuel that enters the turbo ends up being quite mixed and hot in the manifold, which is one benefit of a turbo. I don't seem to have any vacuum leaks (sprayed starting fluid around all joints and idle did not change). I think I've solved the problem of the leaking oil feed line.
Edit 2: pulled the carb. I definitely need to tighten up the linkage so the carb will return to idle. The little bracket swedged to the end of the throttle shaft is really loose and is half the problem, the other is linkage further down the line. A couple of tack welds will set some things right in this area. Looks like the fitting in the base of the adaptor (nipple for the pcv hose) wasn't screwed in tight. May have been a vacuum leak here. Took carb apart. The special ball-bearing float valve had rough threads and I didn't get it screwed into the carb top cover as far as it could go, so I think that fuel May have been coming into the float bowl around the threads. I have other evidence that the float level May have been way too high, as well. So now I am resetting everything and tomorrow should have it put back together and then we'll see what was what.
Scout is off the stands! Just need to get decent throttle action and a repeatable return to idle before I take it for a drive.
Last edited:
Mark Pietz
Member
The engine compartment is now very busy in this area. I have rerouted the heater hoses (first pic).
2nd pic. Below the carb is a cross shaft that has a lever on the opposite end that connects to the throttle cable. On this "linkage" side the hole is sloppy and the return spring on the throttle cable cannot provide enough force to "bring it all home" and establish a solid idle return. So I have fashioned another lever for this side so that an additional return spring (plus fixing the sloppy hole) will make things operate properly. Note the hot air tube going to the snorkel.
2nd pic. Below the carb is a cross shaft that has a lever on the opposite end that connects to the throttle cable. On this "linkage" side the hole is sloppy and the return spring on the throttle cable cannot provide enough force to "bring it all home" and establish a solid idle return. So I have fashioned another lever for this side so that an additional return spring (plus fixing the sloppy hole) will make things operate properly. Note the hot air tube going to the snorkel.
Mark Pietz
Member
Maybe, maybe not. I don't plan hard-core off-roading, but we'll see. The yh has some known problems, but are fixable. So far the troubles are self-inflicted. Today I need to fix very practical things, like hooking up the e-brake cable. After fixing the linkage, the first thing to do is drive it and see where the a/f mixtures sort out. What I have now for measuring is crude, but I still need to get an innovate lc-2 02 sensor in there for data logging.
The other thing that is apparent is that there are few choices for side-draft carbs for my application. The carter was used successfully in slaloms, etc. With a vent modification, not unlike what's posted on the other board about the 2-bbl carbs. Keep in mind that the yh is a side draft version of a yf, which is down-draft, and was used on a gazillion other vehicles, notably the early jeeps with four-bangers. The float bowl is actually the same in terms of orientation, so the basic design is proven and worked with the Jeep in terms of off-roading…
underhood clearance is limited and a down draft isn't in the cards, at least as far as I can see. IH only got away with the 152t and the 1-bbl Holley only because under hood clearance in an early was significantly greater. The real solution, though, is efi. Period. (don't let bill usn-1 see I posted this! ). But that's for down the road….
Edit: I have fixed the slop in the linkage, and successfully peened the lever at the end of the throttle shaft (it won't accept a spot weld). Made an additional lever that will serve when I hook up cruise control! So when I assemble everything, I expect the linkage will have no slop but still be free (no binding). We'll see how the week goes.
The other thing that is apparent is that there are few choices for side-draft carbs for my application. The carter was used successfully in slaloms, etc. With a vent modification, not unlike what's posted on the other board about the 2-bbl carbs. Keep in mind that the yh is a side draft version of a yf, which is down-draft, and was used on a gazillion other vehicles, notably the early jeeps with four-bangers. The float bowl is actually the same in terms of orientation, so the basic design is proven and worked with the Jeep in terms of off-roading…
underhood clearance is limited and a down draft isn't in the cards, at least as far as I can see. IH only got away with the 152t and the 1-bbl Holley only because under hood clearance in an early was significantly greater. The real solution, though, is efi. Period. (don't let bill usn-1 see I posted this! ). But that's for down the road….Edit: I have fixed the slop in the linkage, and successfully peened the lever at the end of the throttle shaft (it won't accept a spot weld). Made an additional lever that will serve when I hook up cruise control! So when I assemble everything, I expect the linkage will have no slop but still be free (no binding). We'll see how the week goes.
Last edited:
Mark Pietz
Member
Earlier, I was letting it run and it just seemed to run so crappy, like in loading up, really crappy response to blipping the throttle or running it at fast idle. I pulled the carb's top cover and turned it over to check float action. The "new, improved" (and made in china) ball-bearing float valve was sticking! It was flooding. So I pulled out an old regular type needle valve (another reason to never throw away serviceable old parts from a carb) and put it in and reset the float level, and put in the original rod and jet, just to try to get to a better baseline. It ran much better. And then I couldn't help myself and dared to go for a test run. When it got all warmed up - so the adaptor isn't cold - the engine completely changes character. It runs real smooth and throttle response is very good! So it's a heat issue; very cold blooded. I know I need to work on heating up that adaptor at least until under hood conditions allow coolant to it to be shut off. I have a plan on how to do this.
Anyway, the engine is quieter than with the stock stuff on it, mostly due to the exhaust system having more mass to it, better sealing with the 3-bolt flange, and the quieting effects of the turbo itself, which is a known effect.
I put five gallons of premium in it.
Initial impressions on the first real test run. For those of you familiar with my geographic location, foresthill road is a favorite of the motorcycle set. At driver's flat, a long, sweeping curve maybe 1 mile long, the elevation goes from something like 1,200 feet up to 1,600 or so. Guess on my part but easily confirmed with gps, which I'll do later. Anyway, the point is that even with a head start of about 40 mph on the curve, I can only top it with great effort in 3rd at around 45 mph or so. Today I started from a dead stop and really don't know how fast I ultimately can take it because the Scout is a handful as I easily topped it around 60 mph in 4th. So I certainly was in boost to pick up another 15 mph. Further up the road, to around 2,600 feet, I struggle to keep 45 mph. 55 in third was a breeze, and there was more pedal left.
I was running the original jet and rod. Though I didn't hear the deadly "detonation", I don't know what my a/f ratio was under those conditions, nor the boost level. Unfortunately, my laptop with the megajolt program in it, took a dump and needs to be reloaded. So data logging must wait until the laptop is fixed. I really wanted to know what boost levels I did reach. I didn't feel any sensation of being pressed back in my seat, but the engine simply kept pulling on the little grades like it wouldn't before. I am certain I'll need to increase my mixture strength, and I have a couple of rod selections that should help me get there. Oh, and the turbine housing really gets hot. After these little "pulls", things smell like they're getting too toasty!
a lot more fun. Almost like a v8.
Anyway, the engine is quieter than with the stock stuff on it, mostly due to the exhaust system having more mass to it, better sealing with the 3-bolt flange, and the quieting effects of the turbo itself, which is a known effect.
I put five gallons of premium in it.
Initial impressions on the first real test run. For those of you familiar with my geographic location, foresthill road is a favorite of the motorcycle set. At driver's flat, a long, sweeping curve maybe 1 mile long, the elevation goes from something like 1,200 feet up to 1,600 or so. Guess on my part but easily confirmed with gps, which I'll do later. Anyway, the point is that even with a head start of about 40 mph on the curve, I can only top it with great effort in 3rd at around 45 mph or so. Today I started from a dead stop and really don't know how fast I ultimately can take it because the Scout is a handful as I easily topped it around 60 mph in 4th. So I certainly was in boost to pick up another 15 mph. Further up the road, to around 2,600 feet, I struggle to keep 45 mph. 55 in third was a breeze, and there was more pedal left.
I was running the original jet and rod. Though I didn't hear the deadly "detonation", I don't know what my a/f ratio was under those conditions, nor the boost level. Unfortunately, my laptop with the megajolt program in it, took a dump and needs to be reloaded. So data logging must wait until the laptop is fixed. I really wanted to know what boost levels I did reach. I didn't feel any sensation of being pressed back in my seat, but the engine simply kept pulling on the little grades like it wouldn't before. I am certain I'll need to increase my mixture strength, and I have a couple of rod selections that should help me get there. Oh, and the turbine housing really gets hot. After these little "pulls", things smell like they're getting too toasty!
a lot more fun. Almost like a v8.
Last edited:
Mark Pietz
Member
Second test run. I think something has happened, but not sure what. I May have blown a head gasket, or possibly the carbon seal on the turbo has begun leaking, not sure which. I have lots of light colored smoke coming out of the tail pipe. Don't know if it is coolant (steam).
how do I diagnose what's going on?
how do I diagnose what's going on?
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Doubt it is a head gasket but an easy test is to use your nose.
Pretty obvious if it is coolant vs oil.
If you are passing oil through the seal you should see evidence of it on the plugs and in the intake.
Pretty obvious if it is coolant vs oil.
If you are passing oil through the seal you should see evidence of it on the plugs and in the intake.
Mark Pietz
Member
It's really strange. What would my nose tell me? What would a head gasket leak smell like? Let me just run by you what I know.
I had gone for a run and was parking it. Suddenly lots of white smoke (or real light colored smoke) at idle; revving it up, lots of smoke. No unusual noises, temp gauge normal, plenty of coolant. Nothing unusual in the oil that I could see, no bubbling in the radiator neck. Then I shut it off for a while and did other things.
Came back and started it up. Some of the smoke appeared, then mostly went away. The smoke coming out the tail pipe is dry. Almost seems like the vapor you see with a fresh start, but doesn't go away. Here's what puzzles me. This engine seems to burn real clean, even without a cat. I am not sure there's a connection between this condition and when the engine is completely warmed up and the adaptor is warm. I think the excess stuff appears when its really cold/some frost. Could I be running a little Rich and cold and it's "slugging" in the turbo? I put in the aftermarket jet/rod combo with a metering rod +1 Rich over stock, and fired it up. Condition about the same. So I've shut it down for the day, I'll worry about it tomorrow, maybe.
One thing I'll say is that whatever, once warm, this engine runs real nice, much more "street able" than the Holley 1940.
Any further thoughts appreciated. Maybe tomorrow I can pull a couple plugs, maybe run a compression test. What a super pain that will be, with the turbo plumbing in the way. Pulling the intake elbow won't be pleasant, either!
I had gone for a run and was parking it. Suddenly lots of white smoke (or real light colored smoke) at idle; revving it up, lots of smoke. No unusual noises, temp gauge normal, plenty of coolant. Nothing unusual in the oil that I could see, no bubbling in the radiator neck. Then I shut it off for a while and did other things.
Came back and started it up. Some of the smoke appeared, then mostly went away. The smoke coming out the tail pipe is dry. Almost seems like the vapor you see with a fresh start, but doesn't go away. Here's what puzzles me. This engine seems to burn real clean, even without a cat. I am not sure there's a connection between this condition and when the engine is completely warmed up and the adaptor is warm. I think the excess stuff appears when its really cold/some frost. Could I be running a little Rich and cold and it's "slugging" in the turbo? I put in the aftermarket jet/rod combo with a metering rod +1 Rich over stock, and fired it up. Condition about the same. So I've shut it down for the day, I'll worry about it tomorrow, maybe.
One thing I'll say is that whatever, once warm, this engine runs real nice, much more "street able" than the Holley 1940.
Any further thoughts appreciated. Maybe tomorrow I can pull a couple plugs, maybe run a compression test. What a super pain that will be, with the turbo plumbing in the way. Pulling the intake elbow won't be pleasant, either!
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Ummmm, oil will smell like oil burning and coolant will (assume antifreeze not just water) like coolant and the exhaust will condense out moisture quickly on a cool surface even at normal running temperatures.
Mark Pietz
Member
Uh, what can I say? 
smells like hot, dry exhaust that hadn't been run through a cat. I did the paper towel thing against the tailpipe and it stays clean and quite dry. I don't smell anything unusual.
Tomorrow I'll dig further into it.
Edit: I just remembered that a few minutes before this, I was up the street visiting a neighbor and shut it off. It did one of those "run on/backfire" things, quite substantial, actually. Maybe it unseated or damaged one of the seals. Would oil burn or smoke, a very light color?
smells like hot, dry exhaust that hadn't been run through a cat. I did the paper towel thing against the tailpipe and it stays clean and quite dry. I don't smell anything unusual.Tomorrow I'll dig further into it.
Edit: I just remembered that a few minutes before this, I was up the street visiting a neighbor and shut it off. It did one of those "run on/backfire" things, quite substantial, actually. Maybe it unseated or damaged one of the seals. Would oil burn or smoke, a very light color?
Last edited:
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
That is a critical piece of information. Yes, absolutely on a draw through application like you have, an induction back up will ignite an large volume of fuel and air and very likely damage something in the process.
Mark Pietz
Member
I just started it up and let it ran. After the engine warmed up - and there's lots of moisture in that long 2 1/2" pipe - it clears up. Then I stand there and run it at a fast idle, standing outside with one foot on the gas and an eye on the tail pipe, and then after a while light smoke begins to come out of it. I stink from exhaust. I think it May be oil, not certain. I did check the #1 spark plug. It wasn't oily, but was darker than normal as in Rich. Not sooty, but chocolate. Seemed to be a tiny orangish fluff deposit on the ground electrode. I know one thing, for certain. The IH mechanics must have hated working on the 152t. For me to do a compression test, I'll simply remove the turbo system from the cast iron elbow out. I imagine the mechanics would draw straws on who had to work on one. The guys pulling the long straws got to commit suicide - they were the lucky ones - the short straw guy got the job.
I'm thinking of pulling the turbo and disassembling it to check for leakage. If it's leaking through the carbon seal, or maybe the "piston ring" on the hot side, it's slight, but enough to cause smoke.
I'm thinking of pulling the turbo and disassembling it to check for leakage. If it's leaking through the carbon seal, or maybe the "piston ring" on the hot side, it's slight, but enough to cause smoke.
Mark Pietz
Member
The mystery is solved. The turbo seized. The results of the post-mortem are not completed. It was getting oil, the bearing was new, and all the specs were met.
The bearing completely wallowed out, probably 1/8" or so on both journals, when the e wheel stuck.
I'm going to pour myself a big glass of whine. :cry in: and think about it all tomorrow.
The bearing completely wallowed out, probably 1/8" or so on both journals, when the e wheel stuck.
I'm going to pour myself a big glass of whine. :cry in: and think about it all tomorrow.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
I would be interested to know how oil is presented to the turbo bearings. Eg direct pressure or indirect via a wick or similar. If you had oil it should have survived a few runs.
I wondered if the small turbo would be pushed in to a critical rpm range with the larger engine.
Tough to re-plumb but I would consider a modern unit if you are considering reusing the older unit
either way sorry to hear about the complications.
I wondered if the small turbo would be pushed in to a critical rpm range with the larger engine.
Tough to re-plumb but I would consider a modern unit if you are considering reusing the older unit
either way sorry to hear about the complications.
Mark Pietz
Member
Under pressure. Needs at least 10 psi at idle, so I had that in spades, as they say. The bearing is oiled through a hole in the casting, which enters a circular groove around the center of the bearing. The bearing itself has holes around the central portion and oil enters through the holes. So it was getting oil.
I wondered about the critical speed. Possibly, but I don't know. The rayjay is essentially a rebadged trw if a b or f flow, and rayjay made an e flow, which is the same turbo with a larger wheel and larger turbine than the f flow. It was made to handle engines between 200 and 300 c.I. Identical in all other respects, though. My calculations showed good flow (70% island) at 4,000 rpm, so I don't believe it was overstressed. In fact, my calcs. Showed the 196 to flow at 4,000 rpm what the corvair f flow had at 5,500 with a 164. So I think overspeeding wasn't the problem. In fact, I know on the grade where I can muster only 45 or so in 3rd, I'm spinning only around 3,500, if that. Wringing it out further only makes a lot more noise without the benefit of performance. I can't imagine I got near 4,000 rpm.
But this is academic in that I don't know what happened. What's done is done and you could be right. I have a thought, though. When I first fired it up, it had oil pressure almost immediately and I did confirm flow out the drain hose, so it's had oil all the time. But in fear of running lean, I put in a very, very Rich jet/rod combo. In fact, the engine blubbered from it. I idled it until it got warm and d*cked around with adjusting the idle, etc. But the adaptor was running heavy frost a lot of the time. As we know that's consistent with boyle's law (refrigeration) and I wonder if all that raw gas flowing through the compressor washed behind the carbon seal and thinned the oil in the bearing. There was a very black carbonie stuff (best word, but not thick) coating the turbine shaft. But it wasn't burnt. I tired of the blubbering, figuring it wasn't drivable that way, and installed the original jet/rod and it ran very well, so that's what I ran the couple of times it was on the road. Probably not more than 50 miles total on it. My real concern is where all that bearing went. I've been checking the oil the past few days and didn't detect anything amiss in the oil, but now I need to get a smear on a tissue and get it in bright sunlight.
Guess this rules out a blown head gasket, huh?
I have a headache now. I'll think about this tomorrow. But I am at a crossroads. I know This modification can work, but where do I go from here.
I wondered about the critical speed. Possibly, but I don't know. The rayjay is essentially a rebadged trw if a b or f flow, and rayjay made an e flow, which is the same turbo with a larger wheel and larger turbine than the f flow. It was made to handle engines between 200 and 300 c.I. Identical in all other respects, though. My calculations showed good flow (70% island) at 4,000 rpm, so I don't believe it was overstressed. In fact, my calcs. Showed the 196 to flow at 4,000 rpm what the corvair f flow had at 5,500 with a 164. So I think overspeeding wasn't the problem. In fact, I know on the grade where I can muster only 45 or so in 3rd, I'm spinning only around 3,500, if that. Wringing it out further only makes a lot more noise without the benefit of performance. I can't imagine I got near 4,000 rpm.
But this is academic in that I don't know what happened. What's done is done and you could be right. I have a thought, though. When I first fired it up, it had oil pressure almost immediately and I did confirm flow out the drain hose, so it's had oil all the time. But in fear of running lean, I put in a very, very Rich jet/rod combo. In fact, the engine blubbered from it. I idled it until it got warm and d*cked around with adjusting the idle, etc. But the adaptor was running heavy frost a lot of the time. As we know that's consistent with boyle's law (refrigeration) and I wonder if all that raw gas flowing through the compressor washed behind the carbon seal and thinned the oil in the bearing. There was a very black carbonie stuff (best word, but not thick) coating the turbine shaft. But it wasn't burnt. I tired of the blubbering, figuring it wasn't drivable that way, and installed the original jet/rod and it ran very well, so that's what I ran the couple of times it was on the road. Probably not more than 50 miles total on it. My real concern is where all that bearing went. I've been checking the oil the past few days and didn't detect anything amiss in the oil, but now I need to get a smear on a tissue and get it in bright sunlight.
Guess this rules out a blown head gasket, huh?
I have a headache now. I'll think about this tomorrow. But I am at a crossroads. I know This modification can work, but where do I go from here.