I am only getting start not start run

ronbgone

ronbgone

Member
Hey gang, I have a 69 Scout 800a, 4x4, with a 304 v8. I had the old motor dialed in, carb, timing, point gap, and dwell plenty of power and good gas milage. The old motor was tired, and apparently hungry, she took a bite out of one of her rocker arms, then ate one entire push. Rod for desert.

I got a new (to me) 304 from a member here. Good motor! It was a 1978 304 I blanked off the egr and plugged a couple other somg related vacuum thingys when I installed. Kept my old carb. The new motor had a prestolite dizzy with a magnetic pick up in it so I kept that. I put a few around town miles on her, then drove it up to chico, about 4 hours in 100+ degree heat. She did fine. Comming home she started acting up. Sputtering, just not kicking right. Checked it out and one of my carb jets had walked on me. So reset the carb. Rest timing to 4 adv. And she ran great for a few miles. Then started missing then died altogether.

The problem: ignition should go accessory, off, run, start/run. Mine is doing acc, off, run, start.

So I can crank it all day doesn't even try to catch until I turn the key off it will try to catch right as I leave 'start' and move into 'run'. That fraction of a second of turning over with the 'run' on is just not enough to start her up.

The question: has anyone else dealt with this? If so was it an ignition switch issue, a starter selinoed issue, wiring issue, coil issue, or a distributor issue?

I am getting spark out of the coil, and at the plugs although seams a little week. Dizzy was on the motor when I got it. Coil is less than 6 mo old. Plugs and wires are new, starter is also new.
Anyone?
 
Your previous engine had a points distributor, right? That would have required a ballasted feed to the coil from the ignition in key on position to protect the coil and the points. The ballasted feed is not necessary for the presto dizz. Take a close look at the wires connected to the coil + terminal. How many do you see there? Does one of them appear to be rather odd looking with a cloth insulation on it? Or do you have a ballast resistor interrupting the b+ feed to the coil? You should also not need a resistor bypass feed from the starter solenoid up to the coil + for starter cranking either. Check those first and update us. Might even post some purdy pics of the coil and associated wiring if you have questions about what you're looking at. Depending on your answer, you May next be focusing your attention on the ignition switch.
 
Ok I replaced the $10 generic ignition, with a genuine IH replacement. This takes care of the run/start problem. I have no resistors in my system. I read somewhere that it was resistive wire that took the voltage down to 7. There was no special looking wire tho, it was actually, and you May not believe this, a green wire. Being green I assumed it was factory and resistive. All that becomes moot due to I fried that wire trying to jump the coil. So it has been replaced. I can get it to start now, but will not stay running by herslef. She is missing and chugging. Changing the timing does not seam to make any difference. Keep in mind I have put about 600 miles on this new motor and the last 300-400 was running very well. Thought I had it dialed in. Only thing was she would die at stop lights untill motor was hot and woould load up on gas when shut down, initial big smoke cloud on hot restarts. So I still have no wheels and not sure where to go from here. I'll go take a few pics if that will help.
 
Ok here are some pic.s

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General view of the coil.

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Fire wall passenger side

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drivers side fire wall

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here we see the red and brown dizzy wires going to their respective sides of the coil. White wire not being used.

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the yellow wire is the one going to the starter, that I just replaced. The green wire on the other side of the coil goes to my tach.

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general overview of the area.

As you can see the wiring in this truck is really good. In fact you might not believe this, but I did most of this wiring my self at home, not by professionals in a shop so now what am I looking for?
 
I was gonna reply to this this morning while I was at work but ran out of time. I figured as much that the ignition switch was the culprit. When your Scout was here in my shop space for the motor swap, I didn't see any resistor of any type. And the wiring in general is .... Well....no comment.

Over all there seems to be some electrical issues. Something about that yellow wire ya got going from coil to starter doesn't seem right to me. Something isn't adding up here bud.

Adding onto the list of things to do for your Scout that we have already discussed, is a serious consideration of a complete re-wire. And if you need me to help you with all this let me know. First week in October, I am off work completely and will be available. We can take care of your steering linkage issue at that point too
 
Yeah the yellow wire coming from the solenoid isn't the typical method of providing power to the coil with the key in on position. That should be sourced directly from the ig switch. What you want from that wire is full b+ only when the key is switched on, and you also do not want to leave it in on position for more than the briefest of intervals without the engine running. So double check that out and update again. If you want to try a quick test, you can disconnect that yellow wire and run a temporary jumper directly from the battery + to the coil +. Just be sure to unhook it whenever the engine isn't running. I'm thinking you May have some latent fuel delivery issues at play here as well.
 
Whoa tap the brake pedal a second! Sorry I didn't pick up on this just a minute ago. You have the yellow power wire to the coil coming from the solenoid? There is no key on supply from that location. There is only power during starter crank from the small terminals or constant power from the large terminal. Don't tell me you have your wire hooked to the large lug. Dude, if you do, that's the same thing as running a jumper from the battery and leaving it hooked up constantly. Its bad juju for coils to be powered up when the engine isn't running. I'll bet you fried your stinking coil!
 
Ok I don't know how this is all supposed to go. I have had this truck for 2 years. Yes it has some electrical issues, but in the 2 years I have had this truck it has run beautifully 90% of the time. I have replaced the coil once trying to diagnose something turned out to be points, so I have 2 non burned out coils.goes like this battery to starter, battery to ignition, ignition to solenoid, solenoid to coil. The coil is not hot when the key is off, I just went out and licked it. Now I May not be the best mechanic, but I have never had a coil problem that got better, in fact I don't believe I have even heard of an intermittent coil problem. Usually they work until they fry and then they don't work. So I am leaning toward something else as the cause, or am I mistaken?

@scooter yes please I would like to schedule the time with you to fix everything. The problem I am having now is unless I can figure it out Scout is not going anywhere, not even from the street into the parking lot. She's being a little bitch. The more time and money I put in the less she runs. I'm getting sick of it. I don't know what else to do.

Last time this happened I replaced the starter, the coil, the points, the cap, rotor, wires, and plugs. Turned out to be the points. After that she ran great, but sat in the driveway for a month. As that took an entire months gas budget in parts.

I don't want to do that again. I need to go places and if I buy a new dizzy right now, etc, etc. I will be stuck with no gas and no $, but I can't take it anywhere to have someone tell me what to fix, because it wont run. Very frustrating.
I'm hoping we can figure this out here or I am going to have to buy some pos car that actually runs to get around in. Once that happens the whole Scout thing will just become another project...

Oh I have no idea what a "full b+" means
 
Okay... Deep breaths. B+ is short for battery + ie 12.8 volts. Your coil is fine. I've either had too much beer tonight or not enough. I realized after my last post that you couldn't have the coil+ connected to the large solenoid lug. You wouldn't be able to shut off the engine if that were the case. Be that as it May, you still need to run your coil plus power wire directly from an on terminal of the ig switch. The way you have it hooked up now, the coil is only being energized when the starter is cranking. Soon as you release the starter, power is cut to the coil and the engine dies. This is your primary no run issue. Fix that and you should at least be running, although you made timing adjustments, so that May need some attention before all is said and done.
 
Wow I think I haven't had enough beer. I didn't change anything. It ran great coming home and like crap the next day. I tried jumping the coil and fried that wire. I replaced it, I replaced the ignition switch wire for wire, if this is wrong how come it ran for the last two years? And when I turn the key on, I have voltage at the coil. Without cranking just they key on. I feel like I'm in the freakin twilight zone. I wish some one could come here and look at it. I just feel lost.
 
I know this stuff tends to get frustrating, especially when you really need to be able to drive the thing. I do believe kimball and I are homing in on your issue. Not only did you do an engine swap, but you also did a fairly major distributor swap in the process. Points distributors have certain wiring considerations that are different from the wiring considerations needed for electronic ignition. You're not in the twilight zone. This is the shit we have all had to face at one time or another with these rigs. Its par for the course. I don't know how you're getting current to the coil from the solenoid only when they key is on at this time. Something ain't stirring the koolaid here. One small terminal of the solenoid should only be energized by the ignition switch when it is turned to the start position. That creates the current jump from the large lug to energize the starter motor. It should not be energized at any other time. Otherwise your starter would continue to crank even when you let off the key. The other small terminal should not be energized in on position either.
 
I don't know but I have like 6 wires that land on the ignition side of my switch, one for the battery and two on acc, no radio and no interior lights so idk what they're for, but I have a big wire on the big lug of starter then I have 2 little wires on each of the 2 smaller lugs on the starter, I just don't know why. I'm an electrician and I think I could wire that whole process with 3 wires at ignition, 1 at coil and 2 at starter, but idk what else is going into or out of that mess.
 
Ron, you need to start over buddy. I don't give two shits that somehow someway it was able to run before. The shit ain't workin' now. You've got way too many wires running to the solenoid. Disconnect your battery and remove all the small wires currently connected to your solenoid. The ignition switch is very simple as you've seen. You need one 14 gauge wire running from the ignition switch 's' or start terminal down to the 's' terminal on the solenoid. This should be the top post. The 'r' or 'I' terminal should have no wires connected to it. That post is used as a resistor bypass for points ignition during starter cranking only. You don't have points anymore. On the large solenoid lug you need the following wires:
1. The 2 gauge cable from battery +
2. An 18 gauge wire that terminates at the #2 terminal of the alternator.
3. A 10 gauge wire that penetrates the bulkhead and connects to the + terminal of your ammeter gauge.

Done with that? Now go back to your ignition switch and run a 14 gauge wire from the 'I' terminal out through the bulkhead and terminate it at the coil + terminal. Now you also need a power supply from the fuse panel to the ignition switch which should already be there. Make sure it is connected to the 'b' for battery terminal on the switch. When all that is squared away, you should be able to turn on the juice and see what shakes loose. Who gives a crap about accessories or interior lights at this point? Those can come later. We're trying to get the damn thing running and that's all for now.
 
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Thank you Scout boy I will start that in the morning. Just out of curiosity, let's say I don't have a fuse box, can I put an in line fuse on the battery line? What do you think? 15a, 20a? The fuse box in the pictures is trash and hasn't been used since before I owned her. I have been putting in line fuses where necessary as I come across them.

This little general ignition circuit is in my chilton light truck manual for 61-71 not exactly my circuit, but 2 things stand out.
1. A magnetic pulse amplifier. Do I need that for the magnetic pick up in the dizzy to work right?
2. I don't see any wires going from the ignition to the coil here either.

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Sorry for the disappearing act last night. Rolling out of bed at 3:30 am has it's sided effects, like falling asleep early. On my way to work - oh joy joy. How the full time job gets in the way of IH stuff. I will try and catch up during the day
 
The chilton books are shady at best when it comes to these old iron heaviest. Don't worry about that magnetic amplifier. We had it working fine without out it. Do the steps that trevor mentioned earlier. And let's see what happens. The inline fuse will work for now. But, that's just a temporary patch at best. I recommend a complete new wire harness down the road. A 14 circuit kwik wire set would do ya good.
 
Good questions ron. First off, a chiltons manual, especially when it comes to dealing with internationals is about one step above useless. When that's what ya got, that's what ya got, but it is a poor substitute for the IH service manuals. I believe that diagram pertains to a previous electronic ignition system that was commonplace in scouts from roughly my '75 thru early '78, which used a remote amplifier module, and is commonly referred to as a Holley gold box system. The mid-year '78 through end of production prestolite models do not require remote amplification.
Just as in residential wiring, circuit protection is every bit as important in the automotive/marine realm. I think the biggest fuses IH used in their light line rigs were 20 amp, which is considered woefully inadequate by today's standards. When these trucks were new, the electrical systems were marginal at best. Add in over 40 years of being rode hard and put away wet, multiple owners all putting their meddling hands on things they have no business touching in an effort to "make thangz mo guuder", etc, etc and you wind up with a cats-ass looking spurgitty pile of shit going every which way like you have. I know you're not responsible for much of it, but all that's missing is the sauce and meatbawls. No offense meant. As you're finding out, I'm not much for sugarcoating and whispering sweet nothings on this forum. I try to tell folks what I believe they need to hear and hope they have their big boy pants on and can take what I'm saying in the true nature it is intended. Your Scout is the freakin' poster child for a stem to stern re-wire as soon as you can scratch up the cabbage to do so. I think this latest episode is just the opening salvo of of a much bigger electrical shitstorm headed your way. Enough beating that poor dead horse. I think you get the message.

So, for now, use the biggest inline fuse you can scrounge on the main power feed that penetrates the bulkhead up from the solenoid lug and goes to your ammeter + and then follow the prescription I gave you last night. Just as an aside, I have a friend who I'm pretty sure still has a nib kwikwire 14 circuit kit that has been sitting on the shelf collecting dust for several years. If you want me to, I can check with him to see what he'd have to have out of it. I know, things are tight. I'm in the same boat, believe me. Right now I couldn't afford to buy that kit myself if it were half retail. But I'm tellin' ya man, you'd be so much further ahead in the long run to just gut everything you've got electrically and start over from scratch. And I'd definitely take scooter up on his generous offer to help you in that process.
 
Ok I have 2 wires on the top post of the starter. I have 3 wires on the big post and 2 wires on the lower post, one going to the coil and one going to the firewall. It makes sense about the resistive post feeding the coil due to points. Now I can take the coil wire off the starter and run it to the switch which ever terminal is hot durring cranking and run. Question is if I start running 12v through a coil designed for 7 volts am I going to fry my coil is there a different coil for the 78 or do they all work at all voltages.

Ps the chilton book was printed in '72 covers 61-71

pps-scoutboy stop sugarcoating this and tell me how you really feel
 
The same stock coil works for points or electronic. The coil is a 12 volt coil regardless of what is downstream of it. The points are what need the protection of the resistive feed. Since you no longer have points you can give it full power scotty!
Neither you nor I know where most of those wires connected to your solenoid right now are originating from. This will take some sleuthing on your part. You need to know for sure where each wire originates and whether it belongs there or not. Some of them don't need to be there and should be re-routed elsewhere or permanently removed. When you figure out what a wire is, label the damn thing clearly so you only have to figure it out once. I've told you what wires do need to be there and where each termination point is. Like I said before, you shouldn't have any wires connected to the bottom 'r' lug. The wires connected there are wrong. Take that yellow wire you have running up to the coil from the solenoid and rip it out, stomp on it, set it afire...whatever, just don't leave it hooked up that way.
 
Ok before I attempt a full rewire of this circuit I wanted to check the facts. Scoutboy you are correct and so was I. I am getting voltage switched by the ignition to the coil. However I am only getting 6.04 volts. Second step of prechecking is to see if that is the problem. I did just make a 400 mile round trip that she ran very smoothly. I also want to make sure this is nessesary becuase every time I fix one thing on the electrical I have three other things that break.

So I disconnected the yellow wire from the starter to the coil. I put a wire from the battery directly to the coil. This made a huge difference coil was getting 12.48 volts and cranked faster than ever before. The motor did not start. Did not even pretend to try to start just cranked and cranked. I didn't even get the trying to catch between start and run. Needless to say I am not going to tear the dash apart again to land a wire on the ignition in order to get that 12v to the coil. That is obviously not my problem. I know it ran and ran great the other way. I know it doesn't run at all this way. I hope my old dizzy is still at kimballs because I could only find the cap and I can't afford to buy another one, so I guess I'll try to work out a ride to kimballs shop. Points are a pain in the ass , but at least I know how to set them up and I have the dwell meter, etc.
 
You should check to see if you have spark. First from the coil to the distributor. Pop the high tension lead which is the big wire running from the coil to the center of the dizz. Ground the brass contact but leave an air gap of @ 3/8 of an inch. A strong spark will jump the gap and give you a light show. If that checks good, reconnect and then remove one plug boot from the plug of your choice. Set up the same air gap with it. Crank and check for spark to jump that gap. If you've got good fire, then there would be no need to go back to your points dizz. It helps to do this around dusk for easier visibility of the spark. If you don't have fire, then reverting back to points would be your next option. The igntion specific wiring still needs to be addressed regardless. If you go back to points, keep in mind that you will also need to supply a resistive feed to the coil, which you don't presently have in place. This can be achieved with an inexpensive porcelain ballast resistor available from most any parts store which you would locate to your firewall and would interrupt your ig switch wire to the coil. The trick is, you need to supply the correct total amount of primary resistance, which is between 3.0 and 3.4 ohms. Your coil will have a small amount of measurable resistance, likely to be around 1.5 ohm. That's just an example. I would insist that you ohm it out with your dvom before making a resistor purchase if it should come to that. You want all wire leads disconnected from the coil, ambient temperature close to 70 degrees and your dvom set to the smallest increment ohm reading. Whatever figure you see, you'd subtract it from the 3.2 total and the remainder is the ohm value of resistor you would need to purchase give or take a couple decimal points.
 
I had explained checking that sparker from the coil wire a few days ago on the phone. :out:

ron
do your self a favor and stop beating it around the bush and gut out that spaghetti you call wiring. It's like beating a dead horse back to life. Otherwise you're gonna continue chasing your tail every which way but forward. My opinion is going back to points is a step backwards. First thing I do in all my own scouts is chuck those damn points as far away as they can be and install a pertronix upgrade inside the current dizzy, what ever model it is. I know very well that money is tight on your end. And for the price you had been quoted for a new dizzy, you could actually purchase a new 14 circuit wire harnesshere And a pertronix ignighter upgrade to your current prestolite dizzy here With money to spare. I am currently doing a re-wire in my own 73 beast because I don't want the headache that you are currently dealing with. Not worth the time and effort to trace one wire at a time from previous owner virus. And that house/industrial wiring you spliced into your current automotive wiring aint cutten it. It's not made to handle all the heat, grease and everything else that goes into the engine compartment. Wiring up these vehicles aint like wiring up a house or warehouse building. Two completely different applications.

Sorry for being so blunt. Guesen that your headache and frustration is hurten my feable brain. You're a good guy ron. And I am willing to help ya out here. But lets not get into the hack jobs of trying to fix something that will ultimately bite ya in the a$$ later on. Worse yet, a bigger fire that ingulfs your whole Scout. I sure would hate to see that happen if you have your daughters with ya. Vehicles can be replaced, but family and friends can't be
 
Ahh household wire in a vehicle. I have a story about that. About seven years ago I purchased a '73 Scout in driving condition just because it was cheap and I could afford it at the time. One of the interesting po modifications was a set of four humungous chinee offroad lights mounted through the front of the travel top. Brilliant location, but that's not the best part. The po who installed them ran four individual strand of 12-2 romex in full insulation to four separate toggle switches mounted in the dash. Power to the switches was supplied via an awg wire connected directly to the + battery post with no circuit protection...but hey, at least that wire was automotive grade! I have no idea how that sumbitch managed to get those fat as wires run the way he did. It took me an entire day to get that hideous shit ripped out! Ron, in your profession, I'm confident that you would beat a fool over the head with a 2x4 if you discovered that he had wired his house or building with even one strand of automotive wire. Well, it goes both ways. We're not trying to be mean here. Its tough luvin' come to jesus time. This is for your own good. We really do want to help you, but you gotta help us help you, or we May as well unsubscribe from this thread and move on. Your call.
 
ok I give up you guys win. The voltage to the coil was only 6.15 volts until I unhooked it. I have 12v at the coil, as soon as I land the wires goes down to 6. Put on one of my different coils and she fired right up did the timing by ear and sounded great. Until I tried to drive it. As soon as I put it under load sputtering coughing not running.

I understand my truck is messed up. I understand about po virus etc. The feeling I am getting here is one of frustration, which believe me I understand.

@ scooter I believe you about the wiring, point is I was talking about putting my old holly points equip dist. In. If I was able to afford a new dist. And had that kind of $ right now. I would follow your recomendation about rewiring, but I'm not, and I don't.

House wiring, automotive wiring, as far as I know the physical properties of copper does not change with a lable. You can coat copper with tin to make it heat resistant, you can strand it, or fine strand it to make it flexable. And you can insulate it with heat, sun, gas and oil resistant, etc.

If the insulation is in tact, the wire is the proper gauge for the amps, and has no resistance from getting hot, then I gaurantee that the elctricity cannot tell the difference. I am not arguing for or against, that is just fact.

What I mean by you win is, I guess I am done working on Scout until I can afford to gut out everything not up to your standards or you'll unsuscribe from this pointless thread. It's my turn to not sugar coat this, but this is what I'm reading.

Since the motor swap the truck has run, a little Rich, but well. I didn't change anything. She started running badly I found one of my carb adj screws had walked. I readjusted those, checked timing after, rest it down about 2 degrees to 4 adv. Ran well for 5 miles like shit since. Since I did not rewire anything I wasn't really thinking wire is the problem. Just wanted to fix it, now I'd just love to get it to run enough to take it somewhere, to someone who this is not over their head like mine.

I lost the motor, reason for the swap, right in between loosing both of my parents. I have a lot of things to get through and need a vehicle. I've just scheduled my moms services. In a few weeks I will have access to $ from my Mom's estate and I will give this thing to kimball as long as he'd like. Right now is just the worst time to be without wheels, but it's parked, on a public street, and I'm done. When I can afford to restore it I will and then take another stab at this issue.
 
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Ps the coil gets it's voltage from the switch. The 2 wires on the lower post of the starter, the one coming from the firewall is 12v key switched so is the coil wire going up. When I tried coil direct to ign, and direct to battery would not start. Put it back on that wire starter post it starts. Checked for that restive voltage in all stages, run start etc.on the lower post and in no state is their voltage there without that switched hot coming from the fire wall.

The switched hot and the wire on up to the coil were both International green factory wires, don't know if a factory worker put them there, but were still taped into harness.
The yellow wire I replaced the one I melted with, is stranded, tinned (heat resistant) and has cloth over plastic insulation made for high heat. There is no resistance in the wire.
 
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