Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

I really cannot think of anything really constructive for the "idle speed up" driving around town except

choke adjustment?

Throttle return spring(s) not strong enough / attached correctly?

Throttle cable worn / catching?

Carpet / mats interfering with the accelerator pedal?

Hopefully, michael can come up with something more constructive.
 
Robert's idle mixture methodology works for me! Nice description dude!

The oem methodology used on an "emissions" setup back when the rig was younger is quite a bit more involved and in some cases we had to use a method referred to as "propane enrichment". That was an emissions "tuning" requirement in many cases and also involved removing the idle mixture lmiter caps (destroying in the process), and then replacing the caps with new ones once the motor was dialed in.

However, ya really need to set up a shop-type vacuum gauge on the motor so ya can see what's going on when the idle "speed" becomes erratic. That is a sure sign of a vacuum leak. And the first place I'd suspect is the "hic" valve (hot idle compensation) on the carb main body if it's equipped with that device. I you would post some good pics of your carb from all four sides, I can tell "which" version ya have, and maybe I can see something to try.

Also...if you are still using the egr system and it is connected properly (vacuum hookup), then it's possible that egr is activating at the wrong time once the engine reaches temp or the egr valve is hanging up (open) when it should be closed. That results inna vacuum leak, though it also usually is accompanied more by a very rough idle rather than an "increased" idle speed.

Again, having a vacuum gauge rigged for observation when an issue is present is a major clue towards what is going on.

If any throttle actuation issue May be suspected as Robert pointed out, simply disconnect the throttle cable and move aside. Then set up the carb. Re-connect the throttle after it plays nicely and then you will know how and where to deal with any throttle "actuation" issue.

When using the vacuum gauge, ya must maintain idle speed within the recommended range of 550>700rpm. If the rpm is too high or too low, then the vacuum reading is not accurate and will fool us! And the choke must be fully open when doing vacuum analysis.
 
Which vacuum line would be ideal to "t" a gauge into or is there a better location? I will get those pics up soon.
 
Sorry gk, I shoulda pointed that out months ago!

Looking at the rear of your throttle body you see three ports/nipples. Do not tee your vacuum gauge off the center port which exits straight back. On some 22xx carbs, that port "might" be manifold vacuum, but on most it's a "ported" or timed vacuum port.

Use either the 3/16" (small) port or the larger 3/8" port, the ones that exit the carb throttle body atta 45 degree angle toward the passenger side. The 3/16" port is connected to the shoke pulloff, so that is manifold vacuum. If your pulloff is "retracted" while the engine is running and stays retraced while running, then the pulloff is ok. When ya kill the motor, the pulloff should extend since manifold vacuum disappears.

On this carb series, the ported or timed vacuum point will display approximately 0"hg>5"hg at curb idle speed if all is well and adjusted correctly. So readings in that range are a dead giveaway ya are not connected to manifold vacuum.

We're looking at a minimum of say 16"hg at curb idle, best case is to get that up around 20"hg depending upon your base elevation. That would be a good reading for sea level>1800ft. Or so.

"assuming" that the compression is normal, and ring seal is normal, and there are no vacuum leaks, the things we're looking at right now regarding fine tuning are ignition timing, idle speed, and idle mixture, the vacuum numbers are only good as long as the engine is fully warm, the choke is pulled completely open, and idle speed is within range.
 
Hi Mike, I'm a new member. I will give you a short and sweet. I have been away from working on cars for quite some time and I am restoring a 72 Scout II. The first thing I want to do is get it running like a top before I spend to much money in the body. I resently bought a carb on e-bay. I was told it came off a 74 Scout II with a 304. I have a 72 Scout II with a 304. I am guessing that it should be golden. I have gathered from earlier stings that the carb I bought is a 2210c. It appears to be missing the lever and assembly for the throttle lever opperated bowl valve. I am replacing a motorcraft carb that I am unable to find a rebuild kit for. Is this a wise decision? It sounds like the 2210c is a bit of a problem carb.
 
Welcome to the krew here wmnan! You are at the right place for help in bringing the old iron back to life!

First off...the motorcraft carb. Those have always been a popular "conversion" carb since they are dirt cheep in boneyards, and dirt cheep to "repair" (sometimes!). But there are no tuning parts for 'em, the only reason they work inna halfazz manner onna 304/345 is that the basic fuel requirements for the Ford 289/302 that most of 'em come from are very similar to a 304/345 IH motor. I have no problem getting kits for those, but in my opinion, they are a total waste onna IH motor!

Your '72 sii should have come with a Holley 2300 modular carb. That is the perfect mixer for that motor and all versions after that! But they were a bit costly to puchase on the oem side, and the Holley 22xx carb was developed strictly as an emissions carb for "throwaway", not really meant to ever be serviced during longterm use.

But...ya now have what ya have, and hopefully we can make it work for ya. But I'm sure you've already gone through the many threads here and realize they can be a real bitch to deal with...even for me!

So here's what we need ta help ya out...

Take several well-focused shots of the carb on all four sides. Then do the same of the "top" of your engine so I can see the detail. That way we know what ya got upfront and we can advise as to all areas that might need attention.

In fact, why don't ya start a new thread just for your issue so we can keep your stuff straight? No doubt we'll reference ya to other threads when appropriate, but that way we can remain specific to your individual project and not muddy the waters.

Some of those 22xx carbs did not use the "bowl vent" lever system, even though the top casting has the basics for allowing that. If yours is machined for all the parts for a lever-operated bowl vent, then I'm sure we can come up with the stuff you need to make it operational is desired. But first let's get it running decent and then we can home in on the details like that! That way you are not out any cash spent on stuff that doesn't directly impact getting the rig running now. It's always possible that ebay carbs end up being tossed in the scrap pile or used for parts donors!

Back to the motorcraft...if you wanna pursue making it whole, then post the numbers on the metallic tag that hopefully is under one of the bowl screws. I'll see what I can find. Those carbs are fairly simple to deal with, after all, they were actually a "cheepened" version of a Holley carb to begin with (joint venture deal). Basically a cross between a 22xx with some 2300-like design elements thrown in.
 
wmnan said:
will do as soon as I can figure out where to go to start a new one, thanks.
Click to expand...

Under the "carb tech" forum header, you will see a button up at the top that says "new thread". Click on that and it will open a new thread. Type in your title, and then post your issue.

Then click "sumit reply" just like ya did here. The re-direct May take a bit longer than you are used to as the new thread is accepted, but it will work just fine. Then ya have your own!
 
I got the attachments to load on the new thread. Thanks for the help. Let me know if you need more photos.
Wmnan
 
Quote" however, ya really need to set up a shop-type vacuum gauge on the motor so ya can see what's going on when the idle "speed" becomes erratic. That is a sure sign of a vacuum leak. And the first place I'd suspect is the "hic" valve (hot idle compensation) on the carb main body if it's equipped with that device" this sounds just like my issue, 7309 a carb but its idle is sparratic. Plus my egr valve is just setting there not hooked up at all. Same type of virus ive been reading with all po vehicles how can I correctly seal the hic valve and what can I do with my egr valve? When we rebuilt this carb we just put the hic valve back in and tightened the bolts.
 
The "correct" way to over-ride the egr valve is to remove it completely. Then use a "blocker plate" kit (included bolts and gasket) such as supplied by ihon here:

egr block off plate for IH engine - IH Parts America Scout

Simply removing the vacuum source from the valve will prevent it's actuation...but if the egr valve diaphragm leaks...or if the pintle hangs open (very common), then that is a major manifold vacuum leak point.

If this rig is not used on the street and the egr is "overridden (again...a non-street application)", then the hic valve in the Holley 22xx carb May also be disabled. However, if the bimetal-control valve itself is properly sealed using the new seal supplied in a carb kit, then it will most likely never actually "open and induce a "metered" vacuum leak.

If you want to totally disable the functionality of the hic system, then remove the parts and carefully drive a lead shot of the appropriate size into the orfice. Do not use rtv anywhere close to the fuel system for any engine!!!

That carb has several locations on it where lead seals were pushed in and staked at the point of manufacture.
 
michael mayben said:
the "correct" way to over-ride the egr valve is to remove it completely. Then use a "blocker plate" kit (included bolts and gasket) such as supplied by ihon . However, if the bimetal-control valve itself is properly sealed using the new seal supplied in a carb kit, then it will most likely never actually "open and induce a "metered" vacuum leak.

If you want to totally disable the functionality of the hic system, then remove the parts and carefully drive a lead shot of the appropriate size into the orfice. Do not use rtv anywhere close to the fuel system for any engine!!!

Well for some odd reason my rebuild kit didnt come with a new seal or a new power valve for that matter I just thuroughly cleaned the old one and put it back in. I can make a plate and gasket to block the egr no problem it doesnt seem to be leaking at all but I agree with just removing it completely. Our state has no on off road law preventing us from doing any of those mods I see you call "off-road" so that should not be a problem. Can I get just that little rectange gasket anywhere? Or do I just make one out of thin gasket material? Thanks Mike for all your help. I wish I could just download your brain and print it all out and publish a book for myself lol.
Click to expand...
 
The thin sheet metal "cover plate" for the hic item never had a gasket, it won't "seal" the port at all as the "intake" point for the valve when it actuates is within the carb body, ...trace out that circuit with compressed air or carb cleaner. The cover just retains the actual valve element in position over the port.

The seal for the hic is/was a very thin composite cork ring that fits down in the counterbore for the valve pintle. The round hole where that seal fits is what ya need to plug off to prevent a vacuum leak if the valve itself is gonna be removed.

You got the "idea" in my subliminal message about "off road" mods!!!! But in reality , the "emissions" schnizz izza federal thang...always has been.
 
Well I went to the parts yard today and pulled every vaccuum line and t and egr valve and another 7309a carb and anything else I could think of put all my vac lines back to original placement even the one that goes to the air cleaner. Seems to run better but now I have a dead spot in the carb. Everytime I think ive fixed something another issue pops up. The extra carb is just for a spare to rebuild because I know there getting hard to find. So now I guess I just have to figure out the dead spot and work from there. I power timed it and it seemed I had advanced a bit far. Using your tuning specs on the carb, it seems like my screws are out too far but it seems to be running ok that way. Man I wished I lived closer so I could just say here it is bill me when its ready to pick up lol. Back to the drawing board I guess for now.
 
Any and all "settings" we May ever suggest in these threads are only baselines that are proven to work on our own stuff.

Ignition systems and carburetion systems are adjustable so that fine tuning can be accomplished, that was even the case with "locked down" emissions stuff, a trained mechanic could diddle with the stuff if proper tooling was available and a set procedure was followed...such as the "propane enrichment" process which was at it's height of use during the era your vehicle was produced.

And I keep repeating around here...the 22xx series carbs are extremely difficult to deal with unless new! These are not carbs that were ever designed to be "serviced" in the real world...and to think that you can set one up perfectly 35 years later is simply not a reasonable assumption! I screw with 'em for hours at times to make 'em play nice.

Move the accel pump actuator to the "quickest/longest duration" slot, and bend the link as needed to make it give a shot even if the throttle arm is moved imperceptibly. Screw the specifications in any "book" or carb kit spec sheet! Worthless for these carbs!

And if the power valve actuator and the power valve circuit itself is not functioning perfectly, then these carbs are nothing but an unmetered hole for gasoline to dribble through...I can't be any more emphatic about that. In working with these carbs...maybe one in ten has a power valve actuator which is functional when it needs to operate. Without that, ya ain't got shit.

How do ya test it? Check post #4 in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/tool-talk/1570-mityvac-thread.html
 
I have a pic of my current carb, im using the first slot and its bent so as soon as the pedal moves its opening the acc pump. If I buy new would you recommend a 350 or 500 cfm center hung Holley for a replacement? Maybe ill just buy a new one and be done with it. It had a Holley 8007 390 cfm 4 bbl on it when I got it, I think I can get enough out of it to come close to buying a new carb plus my 2 other 7309a's trying to take what I have and turn it into what I want without being a ton out of pocket.
 
Do the research in this forum, use only the Holley p/n 0-7448 for your application, that is the 350cfm version though the "cfm" rating don't mean shit...it's how the internal circuitry is calibrated that counts.

I stated many times in this sub-forum, the 0-4412 500cfm version of the same basic carb series is not suitable for any IH 266/304/345 no matter how ya try and work it over inside...and no advantage performance-wise if ya could make it work in some fashion. I have four of those in my personal collection now...if they were 7448 list, I would not have had 'em 24 hours, we gotta waiting list for fresh used ones!
 
michael mayben said:
do the research in this forum, use only the Holley p/n 0-7448 for your application, that is the 350cfm version though the "cfm" rating don't mean shit...it's how the internal circuitry is calibrated that counts.

I stated many times in this sub-forum, the 0-4412 500cfm version of the same basic carb series is not suitable for any IH 266/304/345 no matter how ya try and work it over inside...and no advantage performance-wise if ya could make it work in some fashion. I have four of those in my personal collection now...if they were 7448 list, I would not have had 'em 24 hours, we gotta waiting list for fresh used ones!
Click to expand...

Sry I asked at all. Sometimes trying to decipher these posts is like trying to find a needle in a stack of needles.
 
Hello everybody. I am very new to this place in fact this is my first post. I just picked up a 77 royal monaco with a 360 (made up to look like the blues mobile from the blues brothers movie). It did not have a carb when I got it. I found that it needed a 2245. I picked 1 up from my local autozone. I put it on and it runs nicely. However the chock does not seem to cloase and I can not figure how the hell it should. There is no springs to close it no vacume line to close it... (I think) just have the chock unloader to open it. I also have no idea what all the vacume line go to. Any help would be awesome greg.
 
bountyhunter1000 said:
hello everybody. I am very new to this place in fact this is my first post. I just picked up a 77 royal monaco with a 360 (made up to look like the blues mobile from the blues brothers movie). It did not have a carb when I got it. I found that it needed a 2245. I picked 1 up from my local autozone. I put it on and it runs nicely. However the chock does not seem to cloase and I can not figure how the hell it should. There is no springs to close it no vacume line to close it... (I think) just have the chock unloader to open it. I also have no idea what all the vacume line go to. Any help would be awesome greg.
Click to expand...

All Holley "22xx" series carbs were developed for the use only of a "divorced" choke arrangement.

A choke stove mechanism is mounted in the intake manifold above an exhaust crossover passage in the manifold. The choke stove connects to the choke lever on the carb through the use of a link rod, all mounted on the passenger side of the intake manifold.

With the exception of the fact that chrysler apps of these carbs use a small, rectangular mounting flange , vs. A larger pattern flange for ihc apps, the carbs are virtually identical.

These mixers were a "clean sheet" design as an emissions carburetor, and the divorced choke system was a major part of that package for all oem apps of that carb as that allowed a much m,ore sophisticated control of engine cold start scenario as demanded by the "smog" regulations in play at the time.

In some apps for both chrysler and ihc, the choke stove was also controlled by a thermostatic element that involved an electric heating element incorporated.

This system is not to be confused with either a "hot air" choke or the full electric choke systems.
 
I've got a 1971 dodge motorhome with a 360 and one of these carbs. It wouldn't pass emissions. I rebuilt the carb and noticed somebody had adjusted the float way down in an attempt to lean the carb. After a carb rebuild, it still wouldn't pass, and was worse, probably because I had corrected the float level.
I thought about the power valve, and how it seemed to have a lot of friction to move it up and down, and figured it was probably open all the time.

I know my next steps will sound like blasphemy, but I tried cutting the spring on the power valve actuator in an attempt to give the spring less force. That didn't work. So I bent the whole actuator off to the side, so it would not touch the power valve. After I did that, it passed emissions just fine.

But now I don't have extra fuel when I need it. So what should I do now?
 
heminate said:
I've got a 1971 dodge motorhome with a 360 and one of these carbs. It wouldn't pass emissions. I rebuilt the carb and noticed somebody had adjusted the float way down in an attempt to lean the carb. After a carb rebuild, it still wouldn't pass, and was worse, probably because I had corrected the float level.
I thought about the power valve, and how it seemed to have a lot of friction to move it up and down, and figured it was probably open all the time.

I know my next steps will sound like blasphemy, but I tried cutting the spring on the power valve actuator in an attempt to give the spring less force. That didn't work. So I bent the whole actuator off to the side, so it would not touch the power valve. After I did that, it passed emissions just fine.

But now I don't have extra fuel when I need it. So what should I do now?
Click to expand...


How about...fix it right????

If you will post the list number off the carb body along with a nice picture of the carb showing the throttle linkage side and the top of the bowl cover (I need to see the vent config) we can most likely work ya through a repair situation.

Also, we happen to have n=2 new 2210 carbs for chrysler apps (360 and 400) which May be suitable. Those are at my shop in oregon and it will be oct. 21 before I'm back home to take a look at 'em and verify, I don't have the list numbers on those with me right now.

We most likely also have used parts you would need to allow proper power valve actuation.
 
Ok, I'll have to post some pictures. As I remember, there was no id tag on the carb, but you said "list number off the body of the carb", which I can get. Did these carbs have an aluminum id tag? I'm sure you could identify it if I provide enough pictures. It does have a bowl vent. And it does have the 2 stage power valve. I can now appreciate the diaphragm power valves Holley uses on it's other carbs.

I'm teetering on abandoning the setup and going with a completely different carb. My local wrecking yard has a spread bore manifold for my engine for $30.

If you could pick a really good carb that is easy to work on, plentiful and cheap parts, which carb would you pick?
 
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