Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

[Michael Mayben]

This is a 1920 rebuild I did last week for an ihon customer. The fuel bowl used on both series carbs is the same however, the needle/seat and float system does not interchange between the two mixers though.

You can see the fuel level in the bowl with the engine running at idle. The actual internal liquid level is in the same plane as the top portion of the "Holley" script on the bowl. This one is "correct". In actual use, the fuel level can be even lower than shown here, by as much as 1/8th of an inch.

This one is running an inlet fuel pressure of 4psi, adjusted with a fuel pressure regulator and gauge. These carbs are the most sensitive I've ever dealt with regarding inlet fuel pressure, as is the weber dgv series!

 

[Albuq. Henry]

Thanks l lot! I had read before that you like the float level a little lower on these. I have tried to lower it a bit but didnt want to starve so only tried to move it minimal amouts. Actually yesterday when I saw the problems I did try to bring it down a tiny bit. I will keep an eye the next few days and see if I should try even less. If I go too low will I get a lean condition that I might see on the plugs, or will it simply feel like I am running out of fuel? Last time I looked at the plugs they looked pretty good, not black, not white. That was after I just got it started and drove it a few times getting it up to temp. Thanks- henry

 

[Michael Mayben]

No danger at all with runnin' lean! Plug color is gonna be determined by main jet selection and whether or not the economizer is working properly under load.

It'll simply starve for fuel under load when the economizer poppet opens up. Back out of the throttle, it'll come back to life. Same syndrome as running out of fuel and the fuel pump is sukkin' air and a little liquid.

Keep lowering the fuel level a hair and testing.

Most of the time, with the "rubber-tip" needles, I'm setting the float even lower than that pic shows now. I've played with this a lot since Robert fixed me up with that sight glass!

Sometimes, the service kits contain a different type needle, the three piece unit with the actual needle a tiny spring, and a "plunger". That is a "spring-loaded" needle set. I see no advantage in those, but the float level does have to be set a bit lower with 'em as the "shut-off" of the needle/seat is more progressive.

Also...many of these carbs and the replacement needle seats May have that "bumper" spring component installed. I do not use those as I feel that they are useless in actual practice and seem to create an erratic fuel level when used on rough/uneven terrain with a lotta vehicle bouncin'.

Some 196 motors were equipped with a "heat dam" base gasket that was used to combat percolation with the 1940 carb which was a total emissions carb and much more susceptible to that condition on the later versions of Scout II. Similar to the gasket used with the 22xx carbs on the sv engines. I haven't located a regular supply of those items as new parts yet, but I'm always looking! They were also used on the 232/258 rambler motors in some cases, those also used a 1940 carb (and earlier ones used a 1920).

 

[Albuq. Henry]

Yeah my needle is the spring loaded one. I can probably go lower then.
I also currently have the bumper spring in there also. Thanks -henry

 

[Albuq. Henry]

Well the past week I was able to run most of the time ok. I got the float lever a little lower but havnt got it to die out on me yet. I have noticed every now and then when stopping at a light that the rpms would be just a tad high. Stomp on it and let off then they would come down. Except for the last day and a half, it wouldnt come down. This morn. On the way to work at a kinda long light, when I took off it seemed to flood out and almost die. Then it cleared out. I got here to work and looked inside and once again the poppet valve was laying on its side. I looked at it more closely and feel it is worn way too much to operate properly. I am wondering if this carb is a good canidate for the economizer fix that Robert had posted about. I read that today.
Henry

 

[Michael Mayben]

The economizer poppet is hanging in it's bore, that in turns allows super-Rich to take over. All liquid fuel supplied to the emulsion circuits moves through the main jet and the economizer when it hangs "open", resulting in major over-richness just when the engines does not need that mixture!

Robert has replacement poppet parts available now (just came off the machine). I'm sending him main well cores in the next few days for rebuilding, those in turn will be on the shelf at ihon for purchase. So we May be 10 days>2 weeks out on delivery right now.

 

[Albuq. Henry]

Cool I will get in touch with the store, I will have to see what else is gonna go on my wish list....
Thanks-henry

 

[Robert Kenney]

Naw, not 10 days........... well maybe. Got a buncha shnizz going on but I will turn these perty quick.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Since the accelerator pump actuator issue came up in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/carb-tech/2782-1904-strange-power-enrichment-valve.html

Let's add the definitive idnetification info here so others can find it.

This pics shows the two different accelerator pump actuation designs that are found on all variations of the 1904 carb used in IH four cylinder and six cylinder engine applications.

The one on the left shows a steel accel pump actuator "cam"..it must be used with the long plunger which is a component of the accel pump diaphragm when combined with the pump element, the over-travel spring, and the retainer ball.

Item on the right in the pic shows the more common nylon accelerator pump cam..and as May be seen, there were at least two different designs of those but they are interchangeable. That cam must be used with the short plunger as seen in the pic.

These parts cannot be mixed successfully, though nearly every 1904 I get for service has been assembled incorrectly at some point in the past! And normally that situation is the result of someone else attempting to either piece together a 1904 out of multiple parts donors, or...it was a commercial "reman" that was not assembled correctly.

Bottom line is...in neither case does the accelerator pump system work correctly, and in fact can also prevent the throttle plate from opening past one half position resulting in total sukable performance!

I have seen a few of the nylon cams that have been rendered in cast aluminum (Holley-supply) but I don't have any samples of those at the moment. There is at least one aftermarket supplier who used to do a cnc'd aluminum cam for a nylon cam replacement, but it won't work with the "long" plunger variation obviously!

 

[MGdrvr]

This May be off topic but I have a 1960 mercedes benz with a judson supercharger on it. The carb is (I believe) a Holley 1904. I have two carbs for two judson setups. The carbs are similar and I think they are 1904 models. I need to rebuild them.

There seem to be 3 kits available. The carbs I have have list numbers 20428 and 1354aa. Which kits should I use?

In reading post on this forum I notice that an issue with these carbs is the economizer. Does someone here offer repair services for this?

Thanks for your help.

Paul in pa

 

[RobertC]

You need to supply pictures of your carb(s) so that they can be accurately identified.

Michael mayben is "out" (fall sierra rallye in CA) and probably will not answer until next week.

 

[Robert Kenney]

this May be off topic but I have a 1960 mercedes benz with a judson supercharger on it. The carb is (I believe) a Holley 1904. I have two carbs for two judson setups. The carbs are similar and I think they are 1904 models. I need to rebuild them.

There seem to be 3 kits available. The carbs I have have list numbers 20428 and 1354aa. Which kits should I use?

In reading post on this forum I notice that an issue with these carbs is the economizer. Does someone here offer repair services for this?

Thanks for your help.

Paul in pa

Paul, you have an interesting set-up, was this an oem deal or added later?....

Either way the 1904 economizer is not servicable except for a kit that I make for ihon and it is explained in this http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/carb-tech/929-Holley-1904-economizer-replacement.html Thread.
To install the new parts, the main well is machined and the new parts pressed in. It is better than the oe valve and will out last the rest of the carb. The main wells in the thread are the style we rebuild. If they look like your's then you are in business. Send it in and we can replace the economizer.

Like robertc posted a few pictures will help us id your carb.

 

[MGdrvr]

The judson supercharger was designed for a number of 50's and 60's cars including mg, volkswagen, corvair and mercedes 190sl. It was made in the early 60's.

I have two carbs for two judson blowers. The first is list 1354aa:

 

[MGdrvr]

Here are some pictures of the list 2042 s.

Which rebuild kit is required for these carbs? Will you rebuild them and fix the economiser? What's the cost? Where do I send them?

Thanks in advance.

Paul

 

[Michael Mayben]

Those 1904 carbs have been modified in the typical manner for use with the oldskool judson kits! I'm working with another guy in switzerland right now that deals in that stuff. I'm old enough to easily remember when the judson stuff was a hot topic in the 60's and very common hotrod upgrades for sprites, mg, mini, etc. Along with one of the very first "aftermarket" transistorized ignition systems built into the ignition coil!

Those carbs have had an "adapter" mounted for the air cleaner also, that is not a Holley component. That was supplied in the judson kit.

As Robert said, we can deal with any issue regarding a 1904 as long as the main body/fuel bowl is not cracked, even extremely warped main bodies. About the only parts I'm short right now is good replacement throttle shafts.

I'll have main well cores to Robert this coming week, I have them with me now since I thought he was gonna be here at the rallye, I'll send 'em down Monday.

We use only wells carb kits, I have just completed some customer work using hygrade kits which are ok but much more expensive and contain the exact same parts as the wells kits (wells supplies the actual parts to standard motor parts for re-box). But in nearly all cases of dealing with these carbs, the kit alone will not fix all issues, that takes experience, other parts, and much attention to detail. Along with a replacement main well from Robert/ihon! We are the only source for that component.

I will be spending the next week>ten days at the ihon facility in Loomis, if you would like to discuss this carb build, you can call us Monday and we can explain the process.

 

[Robert Kenney]

I'll have main well cores to Robert this coming week, I have them with me now since I thought he was gonna be here at the rallye, I'll send 'em down Monday.

What gave you that idea??? been pimpin the fact that I would not be there for months.

gota go racing next weekend and the last couple of months have beed nuthin but working on the f/c.

 

[Tom Price]

Hello,
I am new to this forum. I have a 1961 mb 190sl with air conditioning and a judson supercharger model #190. I am looking to purchase a spare carburetor and have my original rebuilt. I would also like to get the cast snorkel (top of carburetor to air hose) unit that fits the 190sl. I have a corvair unit for trade or sale. I would also like to find an original instruction manual for the judson and one for the carburetor. Lots of wants and need some help from the experts to get it all done!!!
The carburetor sounds like the same one that mgdriver (paul) has. Here are the markings and some pictures-
can you identify this carburetor (Holley # and application)?
List 1354aa near the fuel inlet (there was another number that has been
xxxxxed out)(the xed out number looks like eaa9510n){pic #005}
6r-720 on the carburetor body (the 720 is in an embossed circle){pic #002}
12r-750 with 17 below it on one side of the mounting flange{pic #003}
b on the other side of the mounting flange {pic #010}.

Can anyone tell if this is the correct carburetor for the judson supercharger model #190?

To recap-
I need to purchase a correct new or rebuilt spare.
I need to have this carburetor rebuilt.
I need the correct cast air unit for the model #190.
I need original judson model #190 instructions and documentation.
I need a Holley service guide for whatever model my carburetor ends up being.
I need to have my head examined!!! (different forum)

any help, guidance, support will be helpful.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[Michael Mayben]

Thanks for signing on with us Tom!

Great project!

Gimme a couplea hours to analyze whatcha got going here and I'll post my comments. I'll determine what the oem-source for that mixer is along with some ideas for a spare. What I can tell ya from the external shots...the choke cable enters from the "right" looking at your pic, that is the same orientation as used with ihc Scout 80 on the 152 four cylinder motors. The throttle linkage is a non-oem, bolt-on setup, prolly part of the original judson kit? Or is it a home-fab kinda deal??

Is the choke cable orientation correct now for your rig?? Other list numbers of the 1904 mixer have a choke cable entry from the opposite side...and some apps for Ford sixbangers had a hot air "automatic" choke.

I can see that the judson blower "bonnet" precludes doing much in the way of alternative orientation of the various peripherals.

Hang on...I'll be back.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Here goes with an analysis of whatcha got:

the list number you posted was an oem carb on a 52>53 Ford passenger car with the 223 sixbanger. The crossed-out number is actually the Ford part number. And since it was a Ford app, it originally had a thin aluminum tag under one of the bowl screw heads stamped with a number such as: b2a-9510a. It did not have the glass bowl and/or bowl spacer originally, so your pics show a very original mixer and is also clean externally!

The air horn upper flange on that mixer is bent...is that to provide some sort of clearance for the judson bonnet?...or does it appear to have been dropped? No big deal but if that mod is for the bonnet, then a replacement carb will need that also!

It has the steel accel pump cam which uses the "long" accel pump pushrod...so that setup is also correct (and easily duplicated).

The "ported" vacuum port on the side of the main body has been blocked, a blown motor must have a "sealed" carb since it's pressurized through the hat (bonnet). That judson setup is a "blow through" version correct, the carb is not mounted inna "pressurized" box?

edit: one major item I overlooked regarding your existing 1904...the choke shaft and main body on yours is what I call the "short" version and has no slot milled in the main body for the retainer wire clip for the shaft. That means the choke fast idle cam must mate with the proper "offset" throttle lever which is riveted to the throttle shaft...otherwise, you can't set the idle speed as the stop screw will not contact the fast idle cam.

That means that any replacement 1904 that ya use should be exactly like the one you have now, or else the throttle linkage won't interchange without mucho finagling! I do have both designs in my stash of buildable core parts so I can make you an exact replica of the carb you have now!

So I take it that the distributor you are running is a mechanical advance unit only, no vacuum advance?? I'm somewhat familiar with those sixbanger merc motors as I had a few 220/250 sedans from the early 70's, still have some tech lit for 'em.

I already commented on the choke actuator, if yours works fine, then it's also "correct" for that list!

The one thing I can't confirm (I have no reference to correctly match throttle body dimensions with list number, my Holley references have big gaps for some of these old Holley numbers) is the "spread" of the mounting stud/bolt holes on the cast iron throttle body. I need to know if yours measured 2-3/4" nominal center-to-center, or does it measure 3" nominal??

I have one each of the common list number 1904 mixers that are fresh and ready to go right now. I have enough parts on hand to build two more once I have ihon send me up some reconditioned main wells. All the 1904 carbs I build are run-tested on my own engine (an IH 196 fourbanger) and we guarantee you will be satisfied with what ya receive if you order from us!

Since it sounds like you want a spare for posterity...I can assemble you a fresh one, it will have a very similar surface finish as the one you have now...but I don't do "restorations" that have the classic Holley finish (and they won't cost ya in excess of $500 either!!!). It could have a brand new nos bowl on it though if that is important??

If ya wanna pursue this, I can build a replacement for ya now, then when you receive it, make the install and verify performance, then send me the other one for reconditioning. All I need to know is what main jet you have in the carb that is mounted now as that will be the starting point for the replacement.

As for parts for the judson stuff...I haven't pursued anything in the u.s. In that regard...but...I have had some back and forths with a great guy in switzerland who deals in this stuff, he's registered here on ihon after finding out we deal in 1904 carbs. Here's the link to his website which is really a nice piece of work:

home

Dude's tag is dominic clancy. Here's a link we had going a few weeks ago where we blew some smoke about the judson stuff scroll way down for the meat:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/electrical-tech/3036-Travelall-window-motor.html

Ya might hit up dominick about spares for the judson stuff...but since they were so popular stateside, I know someone has a stash of this schnizz around! I can remember seeing a kit for Scout 80 back in the day!

Service lit for the Holley 1904? This link will take you to the Holley service guide for that mixer as it pertained to six cylinder ihc stuff, but 98% of it is the same as your mixer!:

Holley 1904 carb, 1953 ihc - the old car manual project

I have all the Holley service guides that are currently available in re-prints, but they don't cover the 1904/1906/1908...they begin with the "2nd gen" version known as the 1920. The actual 1904 service information contained in any ihc-produced service manual was prepared by Holley and supplied to them as part of their oem-supplier contract, then ihc simply did an edit and reproduced most of what ya see in the Holley manual link.

 

[Tom Price]

Michael,

thanks for having me!

I assume that the linkage is the way it came (minus the welded part?). I think the whole carburetor came with the kit from judson.

The choke orientation is correct for this application. The judson hangs off the right side of the engine and the carburetor sits on the rear of the sc. The carburetor linkage is oriented toward the front of the car. I have attached a picture of one installed. I removed my twin solexes (stock) to put on a pair of webers for better performance. When I saw this judson unit I just had to have it. It is not on the car yet. I need to get the carburetor rebuilt first.

You say that the carburetor is for a Ford 233 from 52 or 53. Would that application be a direct match? Would all of the linkage be the same? I see some of these on ebay for sale. Some don't look exactly the same as mine, but I am no expert. I also see some with a see through bowl. Looks cool, but does it last? You mention the metal tag and while I was cruising your forum, I saw a judson unit "sitting on the ground in bakersfield" that I believe is the unit that I now have. The key is the damage to the top of the carburetor. Or could this damage be common? Sure would like to trace the path of this unit! The metal tag is missing from mine. Is this something that can be added?

There is no pressurized box. The bonnet or air cleaner makes contact on the flange below the damage. I think the damage is only cosmetic, but I would like to have it fixed if that is possible.

My engine is a mercedes 1.9l with an electronic 123 distributor. It does not have vacuum advance. The spread measures 2 3/4" center to center.

How much would it cost to rebuild my unit? How much for a replacement unit? You mention an nos bowl. What are the different options?

Nice links! I will spend some time reviewing them. I will contact dominick to see if he can help with the bonnet and literature. Somebody's gotta have it somewhere!!!

Lots to learn on this project!!! Thanks for your help!!

Ps- love your vacation idea. Not real fond of the location, but is probably the best place for the purpose!!! And yes, everything should taste like bacon!!! (had bacon for lunch and some in the salad for dinner). I will look for these products at the supermarket this weekend!

Thanks!!!!
Tom