Monte Lauer
Active member
Mr. Mayben here are the pictures you requested.
Engine Cooling Systems and Components
- Thread starter Michael Mayben
- Start date
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Monte Lauer
Active member
Monte Lauer
Active member
Ok here is the final product. The engine runs and idles at a cool 150 degrees. Obviously more testing is required, but I think this setup might do the trick.
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Did ya end up removing the thermostat for now??
How'd the burpin' process work out??
When I come up for the final dial-in, I'll bring a clamp-on ammeter so we can see what the current draw of the entire package actually is when running at full tilt!
Also...I'd like to install a "pete's plug" at the water outlet so that we can monitor coolant temp at that point with a stinger-type thermocouple. I'll bring the stuff for doing that, but can you post a pic of a npt "port" as close to the coolant outlet as possible so I can prepare the plumbing? Does the actual coolant outlet neck have a tap in it to allow inserting a npt fitting??
The pic shows a "pete's" installed in the coolant outlet on the Ford fe Todd just completed. That aftermarket water neck has a port in it for a coolant temp sensor, it's just to the left of the oil filler in this pic and is a permanent installation now. We now have about four hours run time on the motor, monitoring the temp anytime the engine is running, that pos radiator is just a unit to allow temporary engine run and is nowhere near sufficient for this engine.
We May also wanna put a pete's right at the radiator inlet, it will be interesting to see what the temp differential is between engine outlet and radiator inlet!!!! That can be monitored also with the infrared shooter...but the thermocouple deal is somewhat more indicative of actual heat exchange.
And before folks start nitpicking this lash up, remember...pink is a purpose-built ride for a very specialized task, operating within a very tight budget. Pink's not a trail rig...engine temp is closely monitored and for the time being, the fan(s) will be engaged as needed, based upon how the elimination rounds progress throughout the event and the staging time involved which changes throughout the day. There will be a learning curve involved in order to be able to control engine coolant/engine oil temp/tranny oil temp within it's optimum range for best performance.
There is much more that can be done regarding this setup if needed...but the idea is keep it simple and serviceable between rounds.
How'd the burpin' process work out??
When I come up for the final dial-in, I'll bring a clamp-on ammeter so we can see what the current draw of the entire package actually is when running at full tilt!
Also...I'd like to install a "pete's plug" at the water outlet so that we can monitor coolant temp at that point with a stinger-type thermocouple. I'll bring the stuff for doing that, but can you post a pic of a npt "port" as close to the coolant outlet as possible so I can prepare the plumbing? Does the actual coolant outlet neck have a tap in it to allow inserting a npt fitting??
The pic shows a "pete's" installed in the coolant outlet on the Ford fe Todd just completed. That aftermarket water neck has a port in it for a coolant temp sensor, it's just to the left of the oil filler in this pic and is a permanent installation now. We now have about four hours run time on the motor, monitoring the temp anytime the engine is running, that pos radiator is just a unit to allow temporary engine run and is nowhere near sufficient for this engine.
We May also wanna put a pete's right at the radiator inlet, it will be interesting to see what the temp differential is between engine outlet and radiator inlet!!!! That can be monitored also with the infrared shooter...but the thermocouple deal is somewhat more indicative of actual heat exchange.
And before folks start nitpicking this lash up, remember...pink is a purpose-built ride for a very specialized task, operating within a very tight budget. Pink's not a trail rig...engine temp is closely monitored and for the time being, the fan(s) will be engaged as needed, based upon how the elimination rounds progress throughout the event and the staging time involved which changes throughout the day. There will be a learning curve involved in order to be able to control engine coolant/engine oil temp/tranny oil temp within it's optimum range for best performance.
There is much more that can be done regarding this setup if needed...but the idea is keep it simple and serviceable between rounds.
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Monte Lauer
Active member
I left the thermostat in. In the end I ended up unplugging the heater hose outlet to purge the air. After that everything went well. There is not a plug on the water neck and the temperature sending unit is located on the manifold. I will get a picture of the motor this week.
Monte Lauer
Active member
Monte Lauer
Active member
I ran the engine today for 40 minutes at 2000 rpm. When the tempertature hit 180 I turned on the fans and it cooled to about 160. I left the fans on for the remainder of the test and the needle never moved.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Purrrfect dude!!!!
Momma should be proud o' her boy! She's really gonna bee queen bee now, she's in control of engine temp along with everthang else!!!
How about riggin' a shift light for the temperature threshold...or a voice warning????
Momma should be proud o' her boy! She's really gonna bee queen bee now, she's in control of engine temp along with everthang else!!!
How about riggin' a shift light for the temperature threshold...or a voice warning????
Lou
Member
Ok, in the words of monty python: “I’m not dead yet!” since my last post I’ve had surgery, radiation treatment, painted the house, laid a new patio, installed a new lawn, got the daughter graduated from uc, had a birthday and did a 25th wedding anniversary. The high point was this afternoon when I pulled the water pump and it’s housing so I can address this impeller clearance issue once and for all. Before this episode is done I’ll set the pump up, replace the thermostat, eliminate the fan clutch, replace the radiator cap, max the timing advance and of course repair the two year old radiator that has torn loose from its mounts.
I did call kellogg automotive in maricopa, Arizona today and talked about rebuilding water pumps for IH-sv motors. The points I came away with include:
* IH had problems with cast impellers, went to the stamped to increase low rpm flow and permit turbulence (open impeller vs. Closed) to keep the seal clean. More of an issue in commercial apps than in under the tree rust collectors.
* thermostat is the most common problem; there were differing applications but the Robert shaw works in all of them.
* the shop manual shows how to set the clearance as the dealer did not have the factory jig that could reference the curve of the impeller and preset it to what the housing volute will be. Kellogg jigs his to a pump housing and knows how high the impeller should be to provide the .015” clearance needed. Rebuilt pumps are only as good as the rebuilder but the dimension from the face of the flange to the impeller tips should be a known value.
* the gaskets are .015 to .025” and can be used to set the standoff of the impeller.
One thought I had today is to set the impeller so it just touches the volute then space it back with a gasket. I will be taking photos and with any luck I’ll have one of those scouts that can climb a hill with my ac on, my pack mule trailer and a tail wind with the stewart warner mechanical gauge never hitting 200 deg.
I did call kellogg automotive in maricopa, Arizona today and talked about rebuilding water pumps for IH-sv motors. The points I came away with include:
* IH had problems with cast impellers, went to the stamped to increase low rpm flow and permit turbulence (open impeller vs. Closed) to keep the seal clean. More of an issue in commercial apps than in under the tree rust collectors.
* thermostat is the most common problem; there were differing applications but the Robert shaw works in all of them.
* the shop manual shows how to set the clearance as the dealer did not have the factory jig that could reference the curve of the impeller and preset it to what the housing volute will be. Kellogg jigs his to a pump housing and knows how high the impeller should be to provide the .015” clearance needed. Rebuilt pumps are only as good as the rebuilder but the dimension from the face of the flange to the impeller tips should be a known value.
* the gaskets are .015 to .025” and can be used to set the standoff of the impeller.
One thought I had today is to set the impeller so it just touches the volute then space it back with a gasket. I will be taking photos and with any luck I’ll have one of those scouts that can climb a hill with my ac on, my pack mule trailer and a tail wind with the stewart warner mechanical gauge never hitting 200 deg.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
About forkin' time you checked in man! We kicked yore ass around the campfire at the bee and here all last week...alotta beer (and fire wood) went into yore asskickin'!!!! We just figgrd that tsa had recruited ya to go up ta dc and start infiltratin' the right wing network and we'd see ya next inna suit knockin' on the door!
You needa "custom" fitted sv water pump and housing? We're doin' that rat now!!! Ain't no big deal! Jeff gotta preview and "training" while he was hear for vacashun Tuesday. He'll have 'em "on the shelf" soon there at the shop.
We'll bee down for the rallye and prolly spend two weeks in gv and Loomis. So makin' the yellar bitch kool nice will be a priority!
You needa "custom" fitted sv water pump and housing? We're doin' that rat now!!! Ain't no big deal! Jeff gotta preview and "training" while he was hear for vacashun Tuesday. He'll have 'em "on the shelf" soon there at the shop.
We'll bee down for the rallye and prolly spend two weeks in gv and Loomis. So makin' the yellar bitch kool nice will be a priority!
Lou
Member
Ya know, when I took my tin foil sombrero off last weekend I did get some intense feedback from the north of me. I shoulda' knowd it was you!! As far as workin' for the tsa I think I'm over qualified what with my ged an all.
Did some measuring this morning and my installed impeller clearance was at .129", about 8.6 times the .015" spec clearance. I'll give Jeff a call in a few minutes and see what we got. I made a masonite jig that will let me ball park the impeller height at the parts counter.
I'm looking forward to the fall rallye and we'll certainly be there. If there's gonna be campfire cerveza ass kickin' goin' on I need to be there to defend myself, at least get some of the facts cleared up.
Photos and more nonsense to come.
I'll add, having gone through the year I just went through, I now end each commentary with "but I ain't complainin'".
Did some measuring this morning and my installed impeller clearance was at .129", about 8.6 times the .015" spec clearance. I'll give Jeff a call in a few minutes and see what we got. I made a masonite jig that will let me ball park the impeller height at the parts counter.
I'm looking forward to the fall rallye and we'll certainly be there. If there's gonna be campfire cerveza ass kickin' goin' on I need to be there to defend myself, at least get some of the facts cleared up.
Photos and more nonsense to come.
I'll add, having gone through the year I just went through, I now end each commentary with "but I ain't complainin'".
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Yore dam fortunate gun regarding the last year!!! We really do think aboutcha quite often bein' a survivor...and yawl got to see yore future mealticket grajeeate too!
Craig
Active member
I figured you get around to working on that Scout oneday. I guess you were just waiting for it to be 100+ everyday for test runs
can't wait for pic's.
Matt, Jesse, and my self just got back from a run today and mine got close to 210 once on a big hill, otherwize around 195, not bad for beeing 104-106 this afternoon. My tranny is another story, it was running 200+ most of the day. Got a B&M cooler in the mail Friday, hopefully that does the trick. If not I will get a new tc of a know lockup valve.
can't wait for pic's.
Matt, Jesse, and my self just got back from a run today and mine got close to 210 once on a big hill, otherwize around 195, not bad for beeing 104-106 this afternoon. My tranny is another story, it was running 200+ most of the day. Got a B&M cooler in the mail Friday, hopefully that does the trick. If not I will get a new tc of a know lockup valve.
Lou
Member
Yea, what's the point in working on the cooling system when it's 50 deg outside. This is perfect test weather, death valley has come to me!
My clearance was almost as bad as your's when you started. I've got a call in to Jeff Ismail to discuss all my options with a focus on a matched pump and houseing as well as an aluminum radiator. I'm heartened that your's has settled down to less than 210, I'll be reviewing your posts tonight.
I did make a masonite jig so I can ball park the height of the impeller quickly. I used a piece of solder to gauge the exact clearance, that worked nicely. I'll be back after I can talk to Jeff and make a trip to his place next week.
My clearance was almost as bad as your's when you started. I've got a call in to Jeff Ismail to discuss all my options with a focus on a matched pump and houseing as well as an aluminum radiator. I'm heartened that your's has settled down to less than 210, I'll be reviewing your posts tonight.
I did make a masonite jig so I can ball park the height of the impeller quickly. I used a piece of solder to gauge the exact clearance, that worked nicely. I'll be back after I can talk to Jeff and make a trip to his place next week.
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Lou
Member
This morning I spent cleaning up the greasy mess behind the pump housing and making a parts list of all the little stuff. I went through my on board parts box and found that my brand new gmb cast vane water pump has the same extreme clearance problem as the one already installed. I also noted that when I pulled the two coolant pipes they had been installed during two periods of my life. One was sealed with red rtv (pre mm) and the other with hylomar (post mm). The hylomar is much easier to deal with and I'm sure I could have reinstalled that pipe with no concern that it would have leaked. Thanks Mike!!
I'll discuss this with Jeff this week and get this nonsense resolved.
I'll discuss this with Jeff this week and get this nonsense resolved.
Lou
Member
Spent some time with Jeff on the phone this morning and determined that my best bet is to find a way to pull the impeller up the shaft some to get the clearance right. I put some thought into that and had a brain fart. The cast impeller has four holes near the hub. I got a 29/64ths drill and tapped all four to 1/2" x 20 thread. Then I ran two GM shock mount studs into two of the holes and put a puller on it. I put some torque to it and slick as ya please I pulled the impeller up the shaft. I inked the face of the impeller blades and hand turned the impeller to see where it hit the volute. Then I filed the shiny areas down and repeated the ink and file process.
When I started to pull the face of the impeller and the shaft were on the same plane. I pulled the impeller up .068" on the first pull and file and up to .078" on the second. That was measured by a depth gauge into the hub to the end of the shaft. I’ll do another pull and file as I’m getting the curve of the impeller to match that of the volute. For the final clearancing I plan to leave about .005” to .010” clearance between the face of the housing and the pump and then install with a gasket of .025”. That’s the thickness of the gasket I removed, I’ll round up a fel pro but if I know the thickness it doesn’t matter, I’ll set the impeller height based on the gasket thickness. Once I’m comfortable that I’ve got this right I’ll do the same thing to the brand new spare pump in my parts box. Once clearanced I’m considering having the hub/shaft drilled for a roll pin or maybe touch the mig or arc welder to the gap at the end of the shaft. Some photos attached. I also asked Jeff to hit me up with a new aluminum radiator so I’m hoping for some good old American overkill here. Looking forward to the usual great feedback here.
When I started to pull the face of the impeller and the shaft were on the same plane. I pulled the impeller up .068" on the first pull and file and up to .078" on the second. That was measured by a depth gauge into the hub to the end of the shaft. I’ll do another pull and file as I’m getting the curve of the impeller to match that of the volute. For the final clearancing I plan to leave about .005” to .010” clearance between the face of the housing and the pump and then install with a gasket of .025”. That’s the thickness of the gasket I removed, I’ll round up a fel pro but if I know the thickness it doesn’t matter, I’ll set the impeller height based on the gasket thickness. Once I’m comfortable that I’ve got this right I’ll do the same thing to the brand new spare pump in my parts box. Once clearanced I’m considering having the hub/shaft drilled for a roll pin or maybe touch the mig or arc welder to the gap at the end of the shaft. Some photos attached. I also asked Jeff to hit me up with a new aluminum radiator so I’m hoping for some good old American overkill here. Looking forward to the usual great feedback here.
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I hate to break to ya lou, but I think ya got an ornament now.
Those holes are balance Holes. Not for mechanical balance, but in a hydraulic way. They relieve pressure on the backside of the impeller to reduce thrust on the bearings and also to keep the seal cavity flushed so the seal gets lubed and cooled. If they're too big, the impeller won't pull enough suction to move water 'cause the water is just flipp'in around the impeller instead of away from it.
I don't see them often, so I don't pay attention to their size, but if the holes got a good size bigger, it's hard to see in the pics, it's gone.
Those holes are balance Holes. Not for mechanical balance, but in a hydraulic way. They relieve pressure on the backside of the impeller to reduce thrust on the bearings and also to keep the seal cavity flushed so the seal gets lubed and cooled. If they're too big, the impeller won't pull enough suction to move water 'cause the water is just flipp'in around the impeller instead of away from it.
I don't see them often, so I don't pay attention to their size, but if the holes got a good size bigger, it's hard to see in the pics, it's gone.
Lou
Member
Hey greg, I just took a look (and photo) of my modified impeller next to a brand new one. I took the hole from a 13/32" to about 15/32", about 1/16". There was very little metal removed when I drilled the holes out, I should be good. After all this I can't believe 1/16" would make that much difference. The stamped impellers have no back at all.
