350 Buck Truck Project engine revival

I am still on the fence with the cam selection. Going with a stock cam in a low budget no frills rebuild with the stock 2210c carb will be fine for my application. I am under the impression that if I do not modify/improve the heads, intake manifold(rpt 4bbl manifold) and new 4bbl carb ( a combination that will kill my budget at this time) then I will not really be able to cash in on the qualities of a better cam.

I guess what I need to hear before I go with a slightly better cam is that someone rebuilt their 304 bone stock with a bone stock cam...wasn't happy with the performance...dyno'ed it with the bone sock cam....changed the cam with the mild 256 isky...dyno'ed it again.... And found in doing so a vast improvement in driveability, gas mileage, vacuum readings and performance dyno numbers.

Don't get me wrong I really appreciate everyone's input on cams and I am not out to prove anyone wrong. I just have not fully made up my mind yet on which cam. Personally I want to be able to experience this truck in bone stock fashion for nostalgia reasons. And if that turns out to be a sucky idea then I can always change the cam later in the truck and come forth to tell everyone how wrong I was.

Hey micheal and Jeff how does this sit with you guys?
 
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I stand corrected on cam choice. I just spoke with my machinist again and it turns out he thought all along that this motor was out of a heavy duty low geared ranch truck that will spend its life putting around a ranch at low speeds not a 1/2 ton pickup 4x4 with 3.54 gears I intend to take on long road trips. He agreed that the isky cam upgrade would be worth while and now is the time to do it. Originally he was a nay sayer on the mild cam.
 
I was told that the parts are arriving this week and that I should get everything back by the 15th of jan.

One thing that is not crystal clear to me is the process of degreeing the cam. The isky 256 grind cam was ordered. I assume that dialing it in will require jumping a tooth on the timing set or installing an offset key. For those who have gone this way before me can you describe the process and what I will need besides a degree wheel to get it right.

Thanks
 
Can you describe the process of making a custom offset crank key? Size, material, machining?

Would you consider fabbing one up if I need it?

Are these offset keys available from IH Parts America?
 
I built an indexing fixture specialy fir the IH keys and use a mill. I dial in what ever degree is needed. I have made them for people before. I don't make a habbit of it but after you install it and degree it let me know how many degrees at the crank it is off and which direction either the event is late (retarded) or early (advanced) and I can make one for you. I talked to Jeff about them but don't see the volume for him to stock them. Maybe that will change. Nothing availible retail that will work.

You can check the intake lcl but just measure intake open and close locations @ .050 tappet lift. Same info but those events are the most important and quicker to read directly at the degree wheel.

Pictures of my standard degreeing setup in an IH 4 cylinder click here. http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/gas-engine-tech/1205-timing-set-indexing-sv-4-cyl-apps.html
 
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Man this project is dragging on. My engine builder is actually a buddy of my father and it seems that this engine is more of a filler project/trade. Its taking a long time but were only getting charged for parts at cost and only part of the labor.

Besides the process of degreeing in the cam the only other thing on my mind is the state of the rocker arm assemblies. The rocker shafts show very little wear but the whole setup is screwy in my book because they are boat style rockers on a 9 stand setup. The concern here being that these boat rockers are jammed between 9 rocker stands. Can I get away with this setup? Anyone ever dealt with a setup like this?
 
rusty Scout said:
man this project is dragging on. My engine builder is actually a buddy of my father and it seems that this engine is more of a filler project/trade. Its taking a long time but were only getting charged for parts at cost and only part of the labor.

Besides the process of degreeing in the cam the only other thing on my mind is the state of the rocker arm assemblies. The rocker shafts show very little wear but the whole setup is screwy in my book because they are boat style rockers on a 9 stand setup. The concern here being that these boat rockers are jammed between 9 rocker stands. Can I get away with this setup? Anyone ever dealt with a setup like this?
Click to expand...

I would hell offa lot rather have boat rockers onna nine stand setup than the cheep version with five stands and spacer springs!!! I see this quite often...I have no doubt that this was a phased in kinda deal back at the point of production originally and is not a "clean" cut-off as the parts lists and service letters allude to. And any aftermarket parts lookup regarding this cannot be trusted, they didn't build these engines!


The big issue here is the correct orientation of the rocker stand depending upon which rockers you end up using. That means...oil holes up or oil holes down.
I prefer not to use the boat rocker sets if I have the option. That is why I collect and recondition all the welded rockers I can find!
 
That rocker setup is ok so long as the index groove on the rocker shaft end is on the bottom. The oil hole that corresponds with each rocker in your case needs to be on the bottom also.

Let me know on the offset key and I can help there.

On the boat ra's I like to use the spring to separate them but the solid spacer works, just make sure the arms can float on the shaft side to side and not bind into the solid spacer. You can adjust the location of the stands slightly to set the spacing if needed, simply loosen the stand bolt and tap the stand as required with a piece of hard wood and a hammer then re tighten. Hard to tell the lack of float from a valve loading the rocker but you can see the clearance between the parts or wiggle the spacer. The spacing issue can exist even with the welded ra's.
 
This thread should be renamed "3500 buck truck project" because I received my rebuilt engine on Thursday feb 24 2010 with a $2648 bill. Hopefully I will find the time to go over the details of that bill sometime soon but for now I am going to fast forward because whats done is done.

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My engine builder's shop is located in the same building as my dads machine shop so we grabbed it with the cherry picker and wheeled it into our shop.
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Easier said than done. When we hauled the cherry picker down to the shop in a trailer the boom accidentally fell all the way to the raised position popping a snapring in the hydraulics that kept the seal in place. Of course we found this out when we were trying to lift the engine off the engine guys work table. Pump pump pump dam this thing is hardly doing anything and its not holding???? We were barely able to get it off the table and onto a palette placed on the feet of the cherry picker but it worked. A couple of hours rebuilding the hydraulics and we were back in business and able to get the 304 on the engine stand that afternoon.

So in the last few days I was able get some paint on the block and install the timing gears. Part of the high price of the bill was that I had them assemble most the short block.

Yesterday I went about degreeing the cam to make sure it was timed properly. After verifying tdc using the positive stop method on #8 we found that at .050 lift on the intake of #8 we got a reading of 9 degrees after top dead center.
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The cam card specs for this isky 256 supercam are -11btdc which now I finally understand also means 11 atdc so we should have a total of 2 degrees advance using this new engine pro timing set.

The original timing set minus a bunch of teeth on the cam gear was an IH oem r2 set.

Now that this is behind I feel I should remove the cam and re-verify that the cam bearings are set just right and the holes are matched in size with the oil galleries and that the rear cam bearing is not over lapping too much at the rear of the engine. Dremel tool and aircraft drills at the ready.
 
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I certainly agree regarding verifying the cam bearing install steve! After talking with ya I understand the trust ya have in the folks that did your work...but now that you know what to look for, we'll be standing by to see how they did!

I know Robert is real interested in the outcome of your cam dial-in...he's been working directly with the iskenderian folks on that exact subject recently!!
 
Here is a piece of advice regarding isky customer service: ask for ron iskenderien ....

Because another fellow tried to steer us down the wrong path telling us that our cam card was wrong. Three phone calls later and ron answered the phone out of the blue and set us straight, spent longer than he should have explaining cam science and verifying the cam card was indeed correct. Ron thanks again.

That other guy must have been an in-law or something.
 
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rusty Scout said:
here is a piece of advice regarding isky customer service: ask for ron iskenderien ....

Because another fellow tried to steer us down the wrong path telling us that our cam card was wrong. Three phone calls later and ron answered the phone out of the blue and set us straight, spent longer than he should have explaining cam science and verifying the cam card was indeed correct. Ron thanks again.

That other guy must have been an in-law or something.
Click to expand...

Ron is Robert's contact point.
 
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Cam bearing holes and placement looking excellent. I believe that the clevite 77 set was used. Probably not everyone's first choice but I left that up to my builder. Silvolite 0.020 pistons were also used.

Just finishing the painting of the block in the next few days and pondering that 2 degrees of advance on that cam.


 
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Cam bearings are cam bearings as long as they fit the holes properly and the spit holes align as they should!

Whether the cam bearings are the "one-piece" shell version or the oem-style finger joint type is not why they fail. And in my opinion, if one of these engines is maintained throughout it's life in a proper fashion, which virtually none we see today were, the cam bearings themselves won't exhibit any measurable wear.

And durabond is not the only manufacturer worldwide of one-piece shell cam bearings for these engines, nor does the clevite "brand" hold sway regarding finger joint bearings.
 
Yes sir we are talkin about a 304 with stock compression and I was advised by isky that 2 degrees advance is ok too.

A few other things I am thinking about on this motor:

-speedi sleeve for the harmonic balancer???? As it is slightly grooved by the previous front seal about .005. Another fellow advised the scotchman method which was to not drive that front seal home but leave it out a bit so that it seals the non grooved part of the dampner.

-doing some extra work on the heads. I have never done this before but I have been advised to polish and grind away intake ports and exhaust ports by using the intake gaskets and exhaust gaskets as templates.

- I was advised to seal that rear valley pan gasket area with permatex #2

- I was advised to seal the intake manifold gaskets with lots of goop on both sides of the gaskets? Is this necessary?

More soon
 
Slow going with my overnight work schedule shootin news in the east bay, bad weather and other diversions.

I am finally getting close to button this 304 up. Some of the recent progress:

-my cam thrust plate screws were screwed by the previous owners. The phillips had been terribly stripped but I think the butcher gave up and never pulled the cam out. Anyway we got em out with a chisel so the screws were done. I replaced them with some 5/16-18 x 3/4" that I shortened a little. The original screws were about 5/8" in length and I am reusing the lock washers. These hardened flat head allen screws were purchased at osh. My only only question is how do I set them. I could just use a 3/8 drive allen socket and ratchet but at what torque(I read somewhere that you should not exceed 12 ft/lbs) ? What is the science behind using an impact driver vs a wrench?

- bought a speedi sleeve on ebay for cheap for the harmonic balancer because erik pointed out the nice groove that had been carved into it over years of Nevada dust and cow pucky.

- pulled the 727 a few weeks ago and recently picked up the freshened version at the tranny shop. 800 bucks with converter. The dude also washed some crossmembers and other parts for me which I have been restoring

- fabbed up a deathtrap of an engine dolly/transport stand with erik's help. Bought a 12' length of 1.25 box tubing .0625. There is a reason why pro welder folks use jigs apparently. If I were to do it again I would go at least 1.5 box with .125 thickness. Anyway I did not want to bring this 304 home on a couple of old tires. We will see if we live to tell about it. Hopefully I can store some of my future engines on it. For right now I am not installing castors yet . I did paint it krylon IH farm and implement paint. After I had the final welding done at my buddies muffler shop the holes for the engine barely lined up. A disappointment but it should get her done. Shots of erik tacking it up for a trial fit.




- engine builder found a lead on rocker shafts out of redding, CA on some 9 stand remanned hard chromed shafts. We are still waiting to see how this pans out.

Without any unforeseen disasters looming and the threat of good weather I should be making some serious progress over the next few weeks. Goal is to get her in road trip worthy condition for this years Binder Bee but worse case scenario the Sierra Fall Rallye.
 
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I got to the shop this morning to find my new hard chromed 9 stand rocker shafts. I am looking at them right now side by side with the originals. I think it was a good choice as the old ones are fairly worn.

I got some pics of the rockers and I am wondering if I should kick down for new ones. There seems to be some wear and I can't imagine they are harder than the shafts.






 
If you can feel "wear" in those rockers with your fingernail, toss 'em!

They are a very loose/sloppy fit on the shaft and only bear on the shaft at those two pads, when the tolerances diminish, lifter noise becomes more pronounced and nothing you can do will make it go away. That is why I shy away from using boat rocker assemblies, imho, they were a giant step backward engineering-wise. Those rockers are what wore down the rocker shafts at the contact points, thus the need for replacements. They will kill your replacement shafts also and be noisey in the process!

Rocker arm supply in the past was able to deal with remanning the welded rockers for us, but no longer as they can't source the bushings. We went down that road with 'em a few years back when we were developing the engine kits and valve train parts we have on the shelf now. They did have some remaining in inventory for awhile but when I last talked to 'em they had none left. There is one other rocker assembly remanner in the business also, and they don't deal with the welded rockers any longer either for the same reason, lack of bushings. I have maybe 50+ welded rockers right now I'm holding in the hope that some day I can find a jackpot of the bushings needed to rebuild 'em.

If the remanned shafts you got are nine stand,...then for use with boat rockers you must install 'em with the small oil spit holes for each rocker in the down position, so disregard the witness notch on the ends. If the spit holes aren't down, then rockers will weld themselves to your fresh shafts in short order! For welded rockers, the spit holes go up!

Speedi-sleeve on the balancer is imperative, otherwise it will piss oil and mess up your new paint, that is not the place to use the scotch method, nor is the rear seal/crank interface!

When you set the pan in place the final time, make sure you use sealant (permatex #2 or hylomar) on the threads of the two 1/4" bolts which thread into the rear main cap on the block, otherwise it will leak just like a rear main seal has gone south. Those two holes penetrate through the rear main cap into an oil-filled reservoir and should be sealed along with the flywheel/flex plate bolts.

Sealer goes on the "oiler" rocker stand bolt also on each side (carefully), and also the bolts that penetrate the head ports, same for the intake manifold. Other wise you will have vacuum leaks that suck oil and create smoke bombs every time ya crank the motor!
 
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I feel that I should rename this truck to boat as an acronym for "bust out another thousand". I just spent another $130 on rocker shafts and today I went the extra mile and kicked down another $192 for all new boat rockers because some of the old boat rockers were showing moderate wear.

As a side note for folks rebuilding 304 engines new ball/ball pushrods are obsolete. Older style pushrods for welded rocker arms are still available but new welded rockers are not.
 
rusty Scout said:
As a side note for folks rebuilding 304 engines new ball/ball pushrods are obsolete. Older style pushrods for welded rocker arms are still available but new welded rockers are not.
Click to expand...

Any push rod configuration and any length your heart desires is available. If Jeff can't get them out of a catalog, he can have them made by one of many custom pr makers... Not to pricey either.
 
Robert kenney said:
any push rod configuration and any length your heart desires is available. If Jeff can't get them out of a catalog, he can have them made by one of many custom pr makers... Not to pricey either.
Click to expand...

The "short" ball/ball pushrods have become unobtainium from the off-the-shelf sources in the last year. The other three versions are available still without resorting to the custom guys.

Steve only needed three of 'em but I've sent him a set of 16 reconditioned items from my personal stash since I try and not use the boat rocker stuff in my work. The option was to have the folks over in bend make a set and send 'em down but we'd rather use up what we have on hand now before going that route.
 
That is kind of what I was trying to say, if unobtainium have them made..... Or call mayben :icon_wink:

guess there are plenty of used ones still around.
 
Hey its those random acts of IH kindness that provide a huge boost in morale. The kind I need for fueling the energy to get 'er done. Also it is not just about the IH trucks, its the IH folks that keep me going down this IH road.

I can laugh now because I really thought I was getting a bargain barnfind of a $350 truck. It still works for me though. I find it somehow therapeutic going through each neglected system and making it right.
 
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