Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Iirc you are building a 304 with basically stock compression??? I'd leave the 2 degrees of advance there.
350 Buck Truck Project engine revival
- Thread starter Rusty Scout
- Start date
Iirc you are building a 304 with basically stock compression??? I'd leave the 2 degrees of advance there.
Rusty Scout
Member
Yes sir we are talkin about a 304 with stock compression and I was advised by isky that 2 degrees advance is ok too.
A few other things I am thinking about on this motor:
-speedi sleeve for the harmonic balancer???? As it is slightly grooved by the previous front seal about .005. Another fellow advised the scotchman method which was to not drive that front seal home but leave it out a bit so that it seals the non grooved part of the dampner.
-doing some extra work on the heads. I have never done this before but I have been advised to polish and grind away intake ports and exhaust ports by using the intake gaskets and exhaust gaskets as templates.
- I was advised to seal that rear valley pan gasket area with permatex #2
- I was advised to seal the intake manifold gaskets with lots of goop on both sides of the gaskets? Is this necessary?
More soon
A few other things I am thinking about on this motor:
-speedi sleeve for the harmonic balancer???? As it is slightly grooved by the previous front seal about .005. Another fellow advised the scotchman method which was to not drive that front seal home but leave it out a bit so that it seals the non grooved part of the dampner.
-doing some extra work on the heads. I have never done this before but I have been advised to polish and grind away intake ports and exhaust ports by using the intake gaskets and exhaust gaskets as templates.
- I was advised to seal that rear valley pan gasket area with permatex #2
- I was advised to seal the intake manifold gaskets with lots of goop on both sides of the gaskets? Is this necessary?
More soon
Rusty Scout
Member
Slow going with my overnight work schedule shootin news in the east bay, bad weather and other diversions.
I am finally getting close to button this 304 up. Some of the recent progress:
-my cam thrust plate screws were screwed by the previous owners. The phillips had been terribly stripped but I think the butcher gave up and never pulled the cam out. Anyway we got em out with a chisel so the screws were done. I replaced them with some 5/16-18 x 3/4" that I shortened a little. The original screws were about 5/8" in length and I am reusing the lock washers. These hardened flat head allen screws were purchased at osh. My only only question is how do I set them. I could just use a 3/8 drive allen socket and ratchet but at what torque(I read somewhere that you should not exceed 12 ft/lbs) ? What is the science behind using an impact driver vs a wrench?
- bought a speedi sleeve on ebay for cheap for the harmonic balancer because erik pointed out the nice groove that had been carved into it over years of Nevada dust and cow pucky.
- pulled the 727 a few weeks ago and recently picked up the freshened version at the tranny shop. 800 bucks with converter. The dude also washed some crossmembers and other parts for me which I have been restoring
- fabbed up a deathtrap of an engine dolly/transport stand with erik's help. Bought a 12' length of 1.25 box tubing .0625. There is a reason why pro welder folks use jigs apparently. If I were to do it again I would go at least 1.5 box with .125 thickness. Anyway I did not want to bring this 304 home on a couple of old tires. We will see if we live to tell about it. Hopefully I can store some of my future engines on it. For right now I am not installing castors yet . I did paint it krylon IH farm and implement paint. After I had the final welding done at my buddies muffler shop the holes for the engine barely lined up. A disappointment but it should get her done. Shots of erik tacking it up for a trial fit.
- engine builder found a lead on rocker shafts out of redding, CA on some 9 stand remanned hard chromed shafts. We are still waiting to see how this pans out.
Without any unforeseen disasters looming and the threat of good weather I should be making some serious progress over the next few weeks. Goal is to get her in road trip worthy condition for this years Binder Bee but worse case scenario the Sierra Fall Rallye.
I am finally getting close to button this 304 up. Some of the recent progress:
-my cam thrust plate screws were screwed by the previous owners. The phillips had been terribly stripped but I think the butcher gave up and never pulled the cam out. Anyway we got em out with a chisel so the screws were done. I replaced them with some 5/16-18 x 3/4" that I shortened a little. The original screws were about 5/8" in length and I am reusing the lock washers. These hardened flat head allen screws were purchased at osh. My only only question is how do I set them. I could just use a 3/8 drive allen socket and ratchet but at what torque(I read somewhere that you should not exceed 12 ft/lbs) ? What is the science behind using an impact driver vs a wrench?
- bought a speedi sleeve on ebay for cheap for the harmonic balancer because erik pointed out the nice groove that had been carved into it over years of Nevada dust and cow pucky.
- pulled the 727 a few weeks ago and recently picked up the freshened version at the tranny shop. 800 bucks with converter. The dude also washed some crossmembers and other parts for me which I have been restoring
- fabbed up a deathtrap of an engine dolly/transport stand with erik's help. Bought a 12' length of 1.25 box tubing .0625. There is a reason why pro welder folks use jigs apparently. If I were to do it again I would go at least 1.5 box with .125 thickness. Anyway I did not want to bring this 304 home on a couple of old tires. We will see if we live to tell about it. Hopefully I can store some of my future engines on it. For right now I am not installing castors yet . I did paint it krylon IH farm and implement paint. After I had the final welding done at my buddies muffler shop the holes for the engine barely lined up. A disappointment but it should get her done. Shots of erik tacking it up for a trial fit.
- engine builder found a lead on rocker shafts out of redding, CA on some 9 stand remanned hard chromed shafts. We are still waiting to see how this pans out.
Without any unforeseen disasters looming and the threat of good weather I should be making some serious progress over the next few weeks. Goal is to get her in road trip worthy condition for this years Binder Bee but worse case scenario the Sierra Fall Rallye.
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Rusty Scout
Member
I got to the shop this morning to find my new hard chromed 9 stand rocker shafts. I am looking at them right now side by side with the originals. I think it was a good choice as the old ones are fairly worn.
I got some pics of the rockers and I am wondering if I should kick down for new ones. There seems to be some wear and I can't imagine they are harder than the shafts.
I got some pics of the rockers and I am wondering if I should kick down for new ones. There seems to be some wear and I can't imagine they are harder than the shafts.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
If you can feel "wear" in those rockers with your fingernail, toss 'em!
They are a very loose/sloppy fit on the shaft and only bear on the shaft at those two pads, when the tolerances diminish, lifter noise becomes more pronounced and nothing you can do will make it go away. That is why I shy away from using boat rocker assemblies, imho, they were a giant step backward engineering-wise. Those rockers are what wore down the rocker shafts at the contact points, thus the need for replacements. They will kill your replacement shafts also and be noisey in the process!
Rocker arm supply in the past was able to deal with remanning the welded rockers for us, but no longer as they can't source the bushings. We went down that road with 'em a few years back when we were developing the engine kits and valve train parts we have on the shelf now. They did have some remaining in inventory for awhile but when I last talked to 'em they had none left. There is one other rocker assembly remanner in the business also, and they don't deal with the welded rockers any longer either for the same reason, lack of bushings. I have maybe 50+ welded rockers right now I'm holding in the hope that some day I can find a jackpot of the bushings needed to rebuild 'em.
If the remanned shafts you got are nine stand,...then for use with boat rockers you must install 'em with the small oil spit holes for each rocker in the down position, so disregard the witness notch on the ends. If the spit holes aren't down, then rockers will weld themselves to your fresh shafts in short order! For welded rockers, the spit holes go up!
Speedi-sleeve on the balancer is imperative, otherwise it will piss oil and mess up your new paint, that is not the place to use the scotch method, nor is the rear seal/crank interface!
When you set the pan in place the final time, make sure you use sealant (permatex #2 or hylomar) on the threads of the two 1/4" bolts which thread into the rear main cap on the block, otherwise it will leak just like a rear main seal has gone south. Those two holes penetrate through the rear main cap into an oil-filled reservoir and should be sealed along with the flywheel/flex plate bolts.
Sealer goes on the "oiler" rocker stand bolt also on each side (carefully), and also the bolts that penetrate the head ports, same for the intake manifold. Other wise you will have vacuum leaks that suck oil and create smoke bombs every time ya crank the motor!
They are a very loose/sloppy fit on the shaft and only bear on the shaft at those two pads, when the tolerances diminish, lifter noise becomes more pronounced and nothing you can do will make it go away. That is why I shy away from using boat rocker assemblies, imho, they were a giant step backward engineering-wise. Those rockers are what wore down the rocker shafts at the contact points, thus the need for replacements. They will kill your replacement shafts also and be noisey in the process!
Rocker arm supply in the past was able to deal with remanning the welded rockers for us, but no longer as they can't source the bushings. We went down that road with 'em a few years back when we were developing the engine kits and valve train parts we have on the shelf now. They did have some remaining in inventory for awhile but when I last talked to 'em they had none left. There is one other rocker assembly remanner in the business also, and they don't deal with the welded rockers any longer either for the same reason, lack of bushings. I have maybe 50+ welded rockers right now I'm holding in the hope that some day I can find a jackpot of the bushings needed to rebuild 'em.
If the remanned shafts you got are nine stand,...then for use with boat rockers you must install 'em with the small oil spit holes for each rocker in the down position, so disregard the witness notch on the ends. If the spit holes aren't down, then rockers will weld themselves to your fresh shafts in short order! For welded rockers, the spit holes go up!
Speedi-sleeve on the balancer is imperative, otherwise it will piss oil and mess up your new paint, that is not the place to use the scotch method, nor is the rear seal/crank interface!
When you set the pan in place the final time, make sure you use sealant (permatex #2 or hylomar) on the threads of the two 1/4" bolts which thread into the rear main cap on the block, otherwise it will leak just like a rear main seal has gone south. Those two holes penetrate through the rear main cap into an oil-filled reservoir and should be sealed along with the flywheel/flex plate bolts.
Sealer goes on the "oiler" rocker stand bolt also on each side (carefully), and also the bolts that penetrate the head ports, same for the intake manifold. Other wise you will have vacuum leaks that suck oil and create smoke bombs every time ya crank the motor!
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Rusty Scout
Member
I feel that I should rename this truck to boat as an acronym for "bust out another thousand". I just spent another $130 on rocker shafts and today I went the extra mile and kicked down another $192 for all new boat rockers because some of the old boat rockers were showing moderate wear.
As a side note for folks rebuilding 304 engines new ball/ball pushrods are obsolete. Older style pushrods for welded rocker arms are still available but new welded rockers are not.
As a side note for folks rebuilding 304 engines new ball/ball pushrods are obsolete. Older style pushrods for welded rocker arms are still available but new welded rockers are not.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Any push rod configuration and any length your heart desires is available. If Jeff can't get them out of a catalog, he can have them made by one of many custom pr makers... Not to pricey either.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
The "short" ball/ball pushrods have become unobtainium from the off-the-shelf sources in the last year. The other three versions are available still without resorting to the custom guys.
Steve only needed three of 'em but I've sent him a set of 16 reconditioned items from my personal stash since I try and not use the boat rocker stuff in my work. The option was to have the folks over in bend make a set and send 'em down but we'd rather use up what we have on hand now before going that route.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
That is kind of what I was trying to say, if unobtainium have them made..... Or call mayben 
guess there are plenty of used ones still around.
guess there are plenty of used ones still around.
Rusty Scout
Member
Hey its those random acts of IH kindness that provide a huge boost in morale. The kind I need for fueling the energy to get 'er done. Also it is not just about the IH trucks, its the IH folks that keep me going down this IH road.
I can laugh now because I really thought I was getting a bargain barnfind of a $350 truck. It still works for me though. I find it somehow therapeutic going through each neglected system and making it right.
I can laugh now because I really thought I was getting a bargain barnfind of a $350 truck. It still works for me though. I find it somehow therapeutic going through each neglected system and making it right.
Rusty Scout
Member
Going through the box of fel pro #260-1075 gasket set and trying to make heads or tails out of some of the small parts.
I can't find the oil pump mounting leg gasket
I can't figure out the 8 5/16"copper washers
any tips on what is necessary for the 304 engine.
The oil pump was done with a melling rebuild kit by my engine guy so that accounts for some of the extra gaskets.
Also I was advised that I should get busy on those intake ports on the heads but they seem very good. Since the heads have been assembled I did not see how that was going to happen easily without getting grind dust everywhere on the freshly assembled valve parts.
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Those gasket kits contain parts for all variations of the sv motor and the four cylinder stuff to an extent. Fel-pro has revised all the IH gasket sets since last fall and they are now making their way into the parts chain. That's called "consolidation". That set probably had the lifter cover gaskets for both the 266/304 (narrow gasket), and the 345/392 (wide gasket). But it had only head gaskets for a 304 and only intake gaskets for 266/304. The gasket set for 345 or 392 would be virtually identical, but have only head gaskets and intake gaskets for the correct application (and ya gotta make sure if dealing with a 392, you get a gasket set for either ic or non-ic motor).
That gasket for the rear cam plate on the block is for the four cylinder application only! The copper washers are used in some peripheral accessories on engine equipped with an air compressor for air brakes. The larger copper washer is for the drain plug on some pans.
There are at least three different types of oil filter adapters used over the years, pick the gasket that matches your adapter and has the proper number of mounting holes.
The oil pump leg gasket is plainly visible in your pic, that is the one with the holes in each end with a larger hole in the center.
The large "ring" fiber gasket is for the bolt-on oil filter canister, you don't use that either on your app.
The brown fiber gasket in the lower left corner is for a fitting on some valley covers for connecting either a road draft tube (early engines) or a pcv "adapter". It's also used on four banger lifter chamber covers.
I see two fuel pump boss gaskets, one thicker than the other, use that one behind your fuel pump.
There are variations in design and thickness of course regarding the oil pump body gaskets. Some oil pumps used a cover plate only for determining end clearance with an assortment of shim gaskets, some pumps use a ground flat wear plate to set the end clearance with a different pattern gasket.
Personally, I see no advantage in doing anything to those fresh heads other than bolting on! Any port work that will result in possibly a performance gain is going to have to be extensive on these heads!!!! And it's done on bare heads, not units that are assembled.
That gasket for the rear cam plate on the block is for the four cylinder application only! The copper washers are used in some peripheral accessories on engine equipped with an air compressor for air brakes. The larger copper washer is for the drain plug on some pans.
There are at least three different types of oil filter adapters used over the years, pick the gasket that matches your adapter and has the proper number of mounting holes.
The oil pump leg gasket is plainly visible in your pic, that is the one with the holes in each end with a larger hole in the center.
The large "ring" fiber gasket is for the bolt-on oil filter canister, you don't use that either on your app.
The brown fiber gasket in the lower left corner is for a fitting on some valley covers for connecting either a road draft tube (early engines) or a pcv "adapter". It's also used on four banger lifter chamber covers.
I see two fuel pump boss gaskets, one thicker than the other, use that one behind your fuel pump.
There are variations in design and thickness of course regarding the oil pump body gaskets. Some oil pumps used a cover plate only for determining end clearance with an assortment of shim gaskets, some pumps use a ground flat wear plate to set the end clearance with a different pattern gasket.
Personally, I see no advantage in doing anything to those fresh heads other than bolting on! Any port work that will result in possibly a performance gain is going to have to be extensive on these heads!!!! And it's done on bare heads, not units that are assembled.
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Rusty Scout
Member
Thanks for the reply. It clears up a few things. The only gasket I see for the oil pump is for the oil pump outlet but the mounting leg one is missing. I re-attached your pdf from the oil pump shimming thread just for reference for other folks doing a 304.
Your words again from that thread regarding the 2 oil pump gaskets
"ok, here's a .pdf'd scan of the two gaskets.
Using the lexmark all-in-one printer setup, if you set the scaling to "none", it appears that it will print the templates actual size. I've verified that on my end...so now I've learnt shit too! The problems I had in the past making template scans were involving various older hp printer/scanners.
But since you are a pooter dude, ya prolly know all about that schnizz!
To review...ya need to always use both gaskets, even though one goes under the secondary mounting leg to shim the pump off the block and carries no liquid. Otherwise, there is a very real danger of either cracking the pump housing (since it's cast iron) or distorting the housing when torqued so that the pump gears could potentially bind.
I'd dare say that the majority of these engines in service that ever had a oil pump r&r'd, most likely do not have the gaskets in place! Or even worse...sum dumscruu used rtv!"
Your words again from that thread regarding the 2 oil pump gaskets
"ok, here's a .pdf'd scan of the two gaskets.
Using the lexmark all-in-one printer setup, if you set the scaling to "none", it appears that it will print the templates actual size. I've verified that on my end...so now I've learnt shit too! The problems I had in the past making template scans were involving various older hp printer/scanners.
But since you are a pooter dude, ya prolly know all about that schnizz!
To review...ya need to always use both gaskets, even though one goes under the secondary mounting leg to shim the pump off the block and carries no liquid. Otherwise, there is a very real danger of either cracking the pump housing (since it's cast iron) or distorting the housing when torqued so that the pump gears could potentially bind.
I'd dare say that the majority of these engines in service that ever had a oil pump r&r'd, most likely do not have the gaskets in place! Or even worse...sum dumscruu used rtv!"
Rusty Scout
Member
Heads are on the engine. I have not torqued them on yet because the head bolt washers are looking a bit tired. I think I should replace them with fresh grade 8 washers unless there is something special about the hardness of the original head bolt washers.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
The oem washers are quite hard 45-50 rcs and thinner than an average g8... They are fine to use again.. Apply a moly anti sieze/thread lubricant to the threads, under the bolt head, and between the washer and the head.
Also make sure you chase all head bolt holes with a tap to make sure nothing will impede the bolt clamping properly.. Than torque to the hi end of the recommended torque 95-100 ft/lb in 3 stages 30, 60- then finish at 95-100. Use general cross wise pattern from the center out.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Sorry, I misunderstood about the "dead leg" shim/gasket for the oil pump! Make one! Use a piece of one of the gaskets that you are not going to use as long as the paper is correct thickness.
Robert is right on regarding those washers, they are "specials" and are commonly used on many other engines, they can be found through the arp stuff, but your machine shop guy prolly has 'em in bulk stock also if needed, that's the kind of stuff engine machine shops keep that is sourced from specialty engine component suppliers, not a common auto parts.
Robert is right on regarding those washers, they are "specials" and are commonly used on many other engines, they can be found through the arp stuff, but your machine shop guy prolly has 'em in bulk stock also if needed, that's the kind of stuff engine machine shops keep that is sourced from specialty engine component suppliers, not a common auto parts.
Rusty Scout
Member
Thanks for all the help. There are many slight details and procedures that keep coming up that are not explicit in the manual or stored in my brain but are common knowledge to you guys with tons of engine building experience.
I hope to finish the heads tonight and get that front timing cover on. Anything noteworthy on attaching the front cover. I already pressed that front seal on. I assume that timing cover gasket goes on dry and the bolts get a little anti seize rather than a sealant. Also I should not torque them down without getting that dampener in place for perfect centering of the seal on that fresh speedi sleeve.
One thing I noticed is that the rear of the timing gear edges line up perfectly while there seems to be a tiny bit of overlap on that crank gear on the cam gear from the front.
Also looking ahead looks like my all my valvetrain parts are coming in this week. I got a new box of lifters and I was wondering the best way to prep the lifters for install. Should they be soaking in oil now?
I hope to finish the heads tonight and get that front timing cover on. Anything noteworthy on attaching the front cover. I already pressed that front seal on. I assume that timing cover gasket goes on dry and the bolts get a little anti seize rather than a sealant. Also I should not torque them down without getting that dampener in place for perfect centering of the seal on that fresh speedi sleeve.
One thing I noticed is that the rear of the timing gear edges line up perfectly while there seems to be a tiny bit of overlap on that crank gear on the cam gear from the front.
Also looking ahead looks like my all my valvetrain parts are coming in this week. I got a new box of lifters and I was wondering the best way to prep the lifters for install. Should they be soaking in oil now?
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Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Nothing very note worthy really, but I am guilty of some type of sealant on gaskets because I don't like come backs.
hylomar or permatex 2 are either fine. I use moto seal because I like it and it is light gray instead of black. For centering the cover on the crank nose I have an alignment tool but using the hub to aide in alignment is fine..
If I recall one gear is a bit wider and a little overlap is normal.
There are differing opinion on lifter pre lubing but pumping them up is not necessary. Just oil the lifter bores, lobes and the lifter faces liberally with th cam assembly moly lube. And oil the push rod end along with the push rod seats.
The prelube regimen will do the rest. Expect a bit of ticking upon initial start up as the air in the lifters is run out.. It won't hurt anything.
Rusty Scout
Member
I am beginning to see first hand how these projects can take years to complete. Life keeps getting in the way. Finally, we have decent shade tree mechanic weather again and I have been wrenching on the Scout cooling system.
Timing cover is on. The threads on the fuel pump were slightly chowed on the blind hole (as opposed to the through hole). I see how that happens too ...fuel pump bolt length on the blind hole. If too long it bottoms out and stresses the aluminum threads. My solution was to grind about an 1/8 inch off the bolt and use loctite it held for now but I know a few fuel pumps later that timing cover May need a thread insert. It was the right solution at the time as a helicoil kit for 3/8 coarse runs about $32 bucks at napa.
Oil pump is on and it was shimmed with a ,067 washer added to the .041 original washer. Missing dead leg gasket was fabbed up along with a matching gasket for mounting.
The oil pickup mounting stud on the main bearing cap bolt was of course torqued down on the wrong side. Correct location was on the passenger side of engine. I retorqued it the main cap bolts to 85 ft lbs and hopefully this did not disturb anything there.
Oil pan is going on next.
One thing I noticed was the valley pan bolt hole ears had been distorted by the po cranking down on the gasket so we got that straightened out on the drill press with a delrin rod and plastic block with a notch carved into it. Then just pressed it back into shape. This was all done cause before when you set the valley pan down with no gasket there were huge gaps created by the distorted bolt tabs. No way it was going to seal properly.
This weekend hopefully get that oil pan installed completely. Then assemble the valvetrain. Also fill with oil and prime engine to check oil pressure and top end oiling. If all goes well on with the valley pan too. So looks like I might be a few weeks out from getting it up and running.
Timing cover is on. The threads on the fuel pump were slightly chowed on the blind hole (as opposed to the through hole). I see how that happens too ...fuel pump bolt length on the blind hole. If too long it bottoms out and stresses the aluminum threads. My solution was to grind about an 1/8 inch off the bolt and use loctite it held for now but I know a few fuel pumps later that timing cover May need a thread insert. It was the right solution at the time as a helicoil kit for 3/8 coarse runs about $32 bucks at napa.
Oil pump is on and it was shimmed with a ,067 washer added to the .041 original washer. Missing dead leg gasket was fabbed up along with a matching gasket for mounting.
The oil pickup mounting stud on the main bearing cap bolt was of course torqued down on the wrong side. Correct location was on the passenger side of engine. I retorqued it the main cap bolts to 85 ft lbs and hopefully this did not disturb anything there.
Oil pan is going on next.
One thing I noticed was the valley pan bolt hole ears had been distorted by the po cranking down on the gasket so we got that straightened out on the drill press with a delrin rod and plastic block with a notch carved into it. Then just pressed it back into shape. This was all done cause before when you set the valley pan down with no gasket there were huge gaps created by the distorted bolt tabs. No way it was going to seal properly.
This weekend hopefully get that oil pan installed completely. Then assemble the valvetrain. Also fill with oil and prime engine to check oil pressure and top end oiling. If all goes well on with the valley pan too. So looks like I might be a few weeks out from getting it up and running.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
The stripped fuel pump mount hole is real common!
Be sure to use some sort of sealant on the two 1/4" bolts at the rear of the pan that thread into the main bearing cap. Same stuff ya use on the flywheel/flex plate bolts and the intake manifold bolts. Those two holes enter directly into the chamber between the crank and the seal and oil will leak if ya don't seal the threads and lead ya to think the rear main seal is leaking!
Be sure to use some sort of sealant on the two 1/4" bolts at the rear of the pan that thread into the main bearing cap. Same stuff ya use on the flywheel/flex plate bolts and the intake manifold bolts. Those two holes enter directly into the chamber between the crank and the seal and oil will leak if ya don't seal the threads and lead ya to think the rear main seal is leaking!