Mr. Mayben :D 1904(s) not working right.

[Rhodes]

I am having the toughest time dealing with some combinations of problems with not one but two different 1904's.

Background--I am (trying to get )running and old 1956 Ford f-100 with a newly rebuild 223 inline-6. All ignition and everything else you can imagine is new and recently inspected.

More background--I have been getting as much advice from a Ford truck forum and have gotten pretty good in depth advice, but it is of no use. I am still stuck in some serious and mysterious ruts.




let's get started.
I was told to use a vacuum gauge to tune the motor--told that it'd get the fuel mixture, idle, and timing in perfect synch(more precise than any timing light alone). So I was given a guide on how to do it. I tried it and I failed miserably. So I got another 1904 from another truck and rebuilt it, problems didn't go away.

My engine just isn't doing, or reacting as it's being told(or as I was told it would). I can explain how it reacts if you want.

Problems?
1)the truck will not run with the choke plate completely open/vertical. Neither carb would allow it. Won't go any more open than this before immediately bogging down:

2)the manual and other people have told me it's supposed to idle at ~550 rpm. The truck won't go below 700 without missing terribly.


I'm sure the carbs were rebuilt completely and correctly(although if you lok in the pic above, there is a little tube keeping me from removing the "pump discharge nozzle assembly"). And have been told by everyone I know--even online--that I'm sol(because they don't know how else to help me). So I came here hoping to find just a little light at the end of the tunnel on my carb problems....I have nowhere else to turn.

Thank you very much.

If there is any more details that you need from me, please don't hesitate to ask.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Welcome to ihon!

I deal with Ford app 1904 carbs quite often since folks as yourself find us in a simple search. We have by far the most and the most accurate tech regarding these mixers on the I-net. I do lurk on many Ford sites that discuss this 1904 stuff and find most of the threads to be hilarious to the point of absurdity!

I have no doubt that your issues you describe are all related to problems inside the very tedious main well! Not just the lack of a functional economizer valve, but blockage of the "pullover" passages which prevent the mixture the engine needs to see from being supplied. As you have probably read here, we do have reconditioned main wells available most of the time...but if the economizer does appear to be functional, then all that is needed is to removes all the tiny plugs in the main well component, clean it internally, and then re-plug it.

I have a perfectly fresh 1904 on my test mule right now I built a few days ok for my own use...and just for test purposes, I did not clean out the main well after Robert did his magic in reconditioning the economizer portion. Result...same as what you describe and I've seen this occur time and again, that is why I always run every 1904 that we service before shipping back to a customer. And every main well we sell has been completely cleaned inside in addition to having the economizer replaced with Robert's magic bullet!

As for tuning with a vacuum gauge...of course that is always preferable and the professional way of doing this stuff. But the Ford motors are no more sophisticated than any of the IH stuff or chrysler stuff that used those mixers,...and old time mechanics/blacksmiths would not have wasted any time in dealing with hooking up a vacuum gauge! They set the points with a feeler gauge (after adjusting the valves) "maybe" (most of us just eyeball it), then set the timing by ear. Once the ignition was locked down, then we adjusted the carb for best curb idle and "tip-in" and then slammed the hood for another 15k miles and did the whole deal all over again. An ear that hears (mine don't anymore), a thin screwdriver, a feeler gauge (maybe), and experience is what us old timers use all the time..."tek tools" are cool for dealing with problem children, but this old iron sure don't call for much more than a leatherman tool to do anything!

 

[Greg R]

I fully concur with Mike's analysis. My 1960 f100 with the good 'ol 223 had similar issues. I wronged that work horse by letting it sit too many years. On the way to rejuvenation; my 1st problem was the economizer valve. After I got it to stop flooding, then it wouldn't idle. I only thought I had every passage clean. I took it to Mike's, we're almost neighbors as oregon allows us to live in the same state. The wiz bang he puts on these mixers is a sight to behold. After the plugs for the passages are removed, he roto-rooters them with his special tool for such needs. It does not screw up the aluminum passages, but it sure does get the white rust out. After cleaning and a thorough inspection, the plugs are replaced and then I took it home. The truck now idles fine.

 

[Rhodes]

Wow, thank you guys so much for the response.

That sounds very interesting, is there a way I could try this here at home? The part you are talking about professionally cleaning is that big aluminum "wall" that attaches inside of the fuel bowl correct? If there isn't a way I can learn to do it, I May just have you guys do it.

I think I May have a vacuum leak, and that May be causing all of this. But I'm not so sure.

thank you so much.

 

[Michael Mayben]

This thread discusses the main well and economizer in more detail as far as what Robert does for the reconditioning:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/carb-tech/929-Holley-1904-economizer-replacement.html

In several of the other threads regarding the 1904 we go into detail on how to deal with various portions of the mixer.

We don't discuss doing the surgery on the main well as that involves removing plugs that are pressed in (some version have two plugs for only the accelerator pump system that screw in). Other passages are sealed with lead plugs and vary somewhat in size, these carbs were in production for over 40 years!

Some of the plugs are available (I keep some some sizes on hand), others have to be fabricated as needed. While this appears to be simple, in reality it's a very tedious operation and if you drill too deep or in the wrong place, then the unobtanium main well is history!

I'm all for the diy approach, but in this case, I think you would be better off having us fix 'em for ya. You have obviously spent much time and research in trying to deal with this, we do it all the time, as the 1904 is by far the most common carb I do on a daily basis. I had six of 'em come in from texas last week so that I can build two good ones for the owner. And I just got an email that he's sending another four or five next week from a stash he fell into!

The price for the reconditioned main wells is $45 with a $45 core charge. If you send in your main well for service, then we either simply swap with ya for $45 or repair your original and send it back. Return shipping for one to five main wells in the same package is $4.80.

Take the time to search and read through all 1904 threads in this sub-forum, I'm certain you will find stuff that you had not considered.

This entire carburetor is a multi-piece zinc casting, including the main well. The throttle body is cast iron, and the Ford stuff usually incorporates a "spark control" valve screwed into0 the throttle body, ihc applications never used those. Also the Ford applications have different types of throttle levers and choke controls. Jetting for various engine apps is all over the place. And...I have the Holley master references that are helpful in making a positive id of the list number as used in all applications (not just Ford or ihc).

We're working now on trying to assemble custom carburetor rebuild kits for the 1904 but it's a very tedious process involving sourcing parts from several vendors and May end up not being very practical. The wells ck368 kit is what we use here for all 1904 applications that don't involve a spark valve, for the spark valve version I have to source from other suppliers and those are becoming a bit scarce. The wells kit does work on the glass bowl version for the Ford apps as well, it has both gaskets needed.

 

[Rhodes]

Wow thank you so much for all that info. Lot to look at.

spark valve--no clue what that is, doesn't have one on mine. No mention of anything like it in the shop manual.

Glass bowl/zinc bowl--I read in a few threads on this site the huge deal of the seals working for some and not for others......uhhhh....

.....I don't get it? I have two 1904's for 56 fords, one has a glass bowl the other a zinc. I can swap the bowls between eachother along with the seals.

Soooooo......

list numbers are 1153 for one, 1155 for the other.


P.s.--can you tell me when these carbs were made or anything about them if I get #'s for you?

Thank you so much.

 

[Rhodes]

Bump: Mike, I have a question.

It was said that you absoulutely test every carb that you touch to ensure that it runs perfect for the person getting it back. Correct?

I have my two carbs that are both giving me the same problems on the same engine. I want to rule out whether it's the carbs or not.

If I shipped you the carbs would you be willing to simply test them using whatever test you use to see if these carbs are underperforming or if they are a-ok?(and if they have a detected fault I May ask you to fix it depending on cost)

it's time I start ruling stuff out. I just want to see if the carbs--in their current state--are cutting the cheese using standards set by other 1904's. And then fix them as needed.

 

[Michael Mayben]

We rolled into ihon/Grass Valley yesterday afternoon after being on the road the last several days. I've been up all nite getting this computer re-loaded after a hd failure and we're operational once again!

Certainly I can test run and analyze your current carbs. My test motor is an ihc-produced 196 I-4, that runs a nominal 62 main jet size, the Ford versions are usually jetted somewhere around 52>56. So if need be I'll jet your mixers "up" if needed for testing and then return 'em to Ford jetting after we determine what is going on.

I won't be back up to the shophouse in oregon until after the 20th however. If you want to go ahead and send 'em our way, use the ihon address and send to Jeff's attention. Then I'll just take 'em home and deal with 'em after the 20th. Right now, we don't have anything here at ihon suitable for a test mule.

By the way...both list numbers you posted show to be Holley 1960 carbs...not 1904. Those are completely different mixers compared to a 1904!

They both show to have been oem on 1956 Ford trucks with the 223 motor.

 

[Rhodes]

by the way...both list numbers you posted show to be Holley 1960 carbs...not 1904. Those are completely different mixers compared to a 1904!

They both show to have been oem on 1956 Ford trucks with the 223 motor.

Wait what?!?!?

So not only are my carbs not what I think they are......but

.......you're saying that the 1904 ever even came on the 65 Ford 223's...right?
But I am asking to get the rebuild kit for a 56 Ford not the 1904 so that means that I am still using the correct rebuild kit.



I have to ask again, are you absolutely positively sure that my truck wasn't even supposed to come with a 1904, but rather the "1960"?

I wonder where/when I was told anything about having a 1904??

thank you so very much for all your info and help. I am very seriously considering sending up at least one carb to get tested.



P.s.--well for what it's worth, I just looked at all of the boxes of all of the rebuild kits I've bought for the carbs(yes I've kept them all) and all of their instruction papers say it's for the "1904, 1908, and 1960 model carbs"

the '56 Ford service manual never mentions any id number(ie. 1960) so I'm just going off your your word, just like I went off of whoever elses word that it was a 1904.

 

[Rhodes]

Hey michael, I sent you a visitor message about shipping my carb, have you gotten it?

 

[Michael Mayben]

I just found the "visitor message" and responded to you! I rarely ever check those messages since I'm always buried in emails, forum posts, and phone contacts! That's the reason I don't do "pm" as that limits the file and jpeg attachments we sometimes need to use to work through issues.

We'll be back home from this short vacation on 10/24 and things will get back to normal from my end regarding "tech" here on the forum.

Can you post a pic of at least one of the carbs you have?? Without a pic I can't be certain! I'm going by the Holley master reference decode for the list numbers you posted. That is the only reference I have with me, the rest of the stuff is on the shop. This could very well be a typo in the Holley reference, I think it's very likely it is, the Holley 1960 carb was not developed and offered until the late 60's as a total emissions mixer. But since it's a single venturi carb with the correct mounting flange for your engine, there is no telling what someone May have mounted in the past. Also, a 1960 does not use a "demountable" fuel bowl as you describe.

 

[Rhodes]

This carb is the exact same carb in almost every way to the one I will send you. In fact since both were acting the same I May send you this one and leave the one on my truck.

The list number was too small to photo, so I will relate it to you.

On the fuel inlet boss it says:
ebr-9510-c
list 1155

If you want a picture with the fuel bowl off I can do that too.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Great pics! Definitely a 1904!! So the Holley reference data is incorrect in this case (typo).

Since Holley list numbers were assigned in a somewhat chronological order from the beginning of the production for a given oem application, the list numbers you have (beginning with 10) certainly correlate to the era of '54>'56.

Also, I've never seen that version 1904 which has a somewhat different venting arrangement, a "booster" installed on the choke butterfly, a retention screw to center the choke shaft, etc. It definitely has the Ford-pattern throttle arm and also the steel accelerator pump cam. Overall appears to be in very decent condition.

The Ford p/n: ebr-9510-c also is an exact match in the reference materials as a '56 223 truck engine app.

 

[Rhodes]

^^wow man, you know your stuff. I'm very impressed.

About the vent, it's funny you should mention that. We have 3 of these exact barbs, but one of them(on a '56 f250 we have) the vent is different than the other two(inluding the one in the pic). Its vent is coming from the side! Any difference in performance?

Either way, I'll probably send the carb to you in the next day or two, what adress and person do you want me to send it to?

 

[Michael Mayben]

^^wow man, you know your stuff. I'm very impressed.

About the vent, it's funny you should mention that. We have 3 of these exact barbs, but one of them(on a '56 f250 we have) the vent is different than the other two(inluding the one in the pic). Its vent is coming from the side! Any difference in performance?

Either way, I'll probably send the carb to you in the next day or two, what adress and person do you want me to send it to?

The vent location and method of providing "the vent" has no impact on performance per se. These carbs have multiple points of venting, including some points that are inactive for some list numbers. I have no idea why the variations were made, but then I wasn't a fuel systems engineer for the oem side back in the day! We just have to understand there were many variations of these mixers and that while they are all similar and many parts interchange, each list number was specifically engineered for a purpose.

The ship to address is:

michael mayben
IH Parts America oregon
42790 leaburg dr.
Leaburg, or 97489

 

[Rhodes]

Alright michael, I am getting together the packaging and will ship it out to you tomorrow.

There are a couple small issues though:

1) the fuel bowl screws are in bad shape. The heads are pretty bad, but will work "if you put the screws to 'em". . I tried looking around for others, but with no luck.

2) I'm going to send you a fuel bowl gasket made out of the only material that I've used that has worked, however I haven't tried it on this particular carb, so if it leaks......
....that's not my main concern, I just want to know of the "mechanics" of this carb are working right.

3) the carb requires intake manifold gaskets, 6-9 of them for my specific truck. Do you think you'll need all of them? I can include 1-2, but these things are special order and if you can work with one or less, than by-all-means....


The carb I'm sending you was running an engine at one time--only a couple months ago. It was rebuilt fresh. The only thing different is the fuel bowl, everything else is the same.

Thank you so much.

 

[Michael Mayben]

alright michael, I am getting together the packaging and will ship it out to you tomorrow.

There are a couple small issues though:

1) the fuel bowl screws are in bad shape. The heads are pretty bad, but will work "if you put the screws to 'em". . I tried looking around for others, but with no luck.

2) I'm going to send you a fuel bowl gasket made out of the only material that I've used that has worked, however I haven't tried it on this particular carb, so if it leaks......
....that's not my main concern, I just want to know of the "mechanics" of this carb are working right.

3) the carb requires intake manifold gaskets, 6-9 of them for my specific truck. Do you think you'll need all of them? I can include 1-2, but these things are special order and if you can work with one or less, than by-all-means....


The carb I'm sending you was running an engine at one time--only a couple months ago. It was rebuilt fresh. The only thing different is the fuel bowl, everything else is the same.

Thank you so much.

Fuel bowl screws (along with any other hardware) are not a problem from my end. I have all three types used on these carbs. And on many of the carbs I'm doing now, I'm using socket head screws for replacements (either black oxide or stainless, customer choice).

Fuel bowl gaskets likewise are no problem, the glass bowl carbs use two gaskets (each is different) and I have those. The one item I don't have for the glass bowl variations are the special triangular "clips" used under the bowl screws to retain the glass bowl to the spacer. Somewhere there must be tens of thousands of those clips, but I don't have any spares here!

As for the intake gasket, can you post a pic?? I think what you are referring to are the "heat dam" gaskets between the carb and the intake plenum flange??? If so, I haven't found a source for those myself. Those were also used on some (not all) IH applications over time.

I have all kinds of "adapters" and stuff I've fabbed up to be able to run the 19xx variation carbs on the single mule engine I have. I also have a large supply of aluminum spacers used to raise these carbs above the intake manifold for allowing throttle connection clearance on some versions.

 

[Rhodes]

The carb I'm sending you will be using a zink bowl. My other carb on the truck has the glass bowl.
Both showed the exact same symptoms, so I selected the one off the truck to send you and that one has a zink bowl.

If you don't need the bowl gasket, then I won't send it. Are you sure, it's freeeeeee?

I'll have a picture of the gasket within half an hour.

edit:
the gaskets are about as thick as a quarter when new and are made of a paper/foil material. They are special ordered from napa and cost like $2-3 each. Not cheap when you've had to buy 16-17 of 'em..... I' have some in the package right now, so if you will need 1-2 of them I will ship them, if you can do without, that's ok too. Just tell me what you need, I'll be packaging the carb up and shipping it by 3pm.

In the first pic, that is the carb throttle body bolted to the intake manifold, with 6-7 of those gaskets as a spacer. The shop manual and napa computers say to use 7-9 Of them!

 

[Michael Mayben]

Oh....that type gasket!!!

Sometimes the kits I use have that version, sometimes not. I also make a lot of similar gaskets when need be.

The much more elegant workaround for that is the aluminum spacers I mentioned! I use those with a plain gasket on either side. I'll send one back to ya to try, I have a near unlimited supply of those and if it works for you, I'll buy up the entire stock from the source I have! Should be equivalent to probably seven of the gaskets stacked, actually thickness is 0.410". I use those on some of the weber carb conversions I do using that crappy 2 into 1 "adapter" that is so common. That way the oem manifold studs don't need to be cut down rendering the process non-reversible! These spacers fit either stud pattern center-to-center distance, 2-3/4" or 3" so they can be used with any similar carb application.

Great pics!!!

 

[Rhodes]

What kind of gasket material do you make/use for the fuel bowls? I have tried all kinds of stuff and the only one to work so far was a very nice cork material that I got from a guy who doesn't even do anything automotive related. He makes seals for large water pipe.
Just curious what you're going to use.

The manifold gasket I have are different than the ones in the kits I've bought. The kits have paper.

I tried to package everything up as best as I could using some styrofoam. We'll see what happens. Thanks again.