Chadderbox74
New member
What exactly is going to happen (or should happen) when I apply air to these holes?
69 Charger - Torqueflite trouble
- Thread starter Chadderbox74
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Chadderbox74
New member
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
As air is applied to each port, you will hear a slight "clunk" from each clutch. When you move to the kickdown (front) servo, the front band will apply (the piston will move to tighten the bands).. Same for the low/reverse band and servo when air is applied.
If both clutches apply and both servos apply, then at least the internal circuitry is correct.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
tranny pan...
That my friend is not a good sign...far worse than "normal sluff" found after say 20k miles!!!
Something is broken.
I'm going to suggest that the overrunning clutch race has broken loose and spun in the case. That is the last component to be accessed/inspected during teardown.
Some folks throw bullshit and say "all 727 trannys are weak in that area". Total crap statement, the overrunning clutch fails because of abuse, too much torque/hp for the particular tranny build, or it was damaged previously and either overlooked or ignored during the previous rebuild (most likely).
Some of that metallic residue is steel (the inner and outer races, springs and rollers), and some of it is the aluminum case itself which is possibly now badly stripped and will not hold an oem press-in race. That is when we install a "bolt-in sprag" which is a repair component used in order to hopefully salvage the case, if not the case is destroyed.
Chadderbox74
New member
Well - sounds like this is above and beyond my range of mechanics. Should I just look to have someone go thru and overhaul it?
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Sounds like you know when to fish and when to cut bait!
Given the value of that vehicle, I'd suggest having the unit done correctly by a pro who knows the 727, knows how to perform normal performance unit upgrades, and has access to the correct service parts.
With the level of debris I see, there is something badly damaged internally, this is not something that can be "fixed" at this point.
We are in the final process of producing a 727 rebuild video that will be available to ihon members soon. Nothing fancy, but the kind of stuff that can be done in a diy shop with limited special tools and with a definite redneck attitude.
Chadderbox74
New member
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
At the present time, we're doing "normal" super-duty (rv service spec) 727 trannys for $995 exchange. Exchange means...an IH core for either a Scout II or a pickall since we have those cores in the inventory right now.
The price for building the customers core (either an IH core, a chrysler core, or an amc core) is the same.
These units are built using B&M internals, including their shift reprogramming systems and are identical internally to the 727 units B&M used to market.
That price does not include a torque converter, or a repair kit for the overrunning clutch (bolt-in sprag), that runs an additional $125 installed.
One-way shipping by ups ground runs an average of $165
nationwide.
Pic attached is a unit we did for a customer just last week, I installed a dodge motorhome tailshaft and housing into a IH 1310 727 core. Reason being the customer is installing a gearvendors under/overdrive unit on it and those are only available now for the dodge tailhousing pattern.
The price for building the customers core (either an IH core, a chrysler core, or an amc core) is the same.
These units are built using B&M internals, including their shift reprogramming systems and are identical internally to the 727 units B&M used to market.
That price does not include a torque converter, or a repair kit for the overrunning clutch (bolt-in sprag), that runs an additional $125 installed.
One-way shipping by ups ground runs an average of $165
nationwide.
Pic attached is a unit we did for a customer just last week, I installed a dodge motorhome tailshaft and housing into a IH 1310 727 core. Reason being the customer is installing a gearvendors under/overdrive unit on it and those are only available now for the dodge tailhousing pattern.
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
This pic shows the red 727 after cleaning and mounting on the surgery table. All the guts are laid out.
If you look inside the case at that dark ring, that is the outer race for the overrunning clutch. The oem part has a very fine spline cut into it's periphery, then it's pressed into the housing and has an "insurance" set screw locked into a indentation.
The repair race is exactly the same except it has three holes drilled into it. Those holes have to align with three of the holes that retain the output shaft support and three special fasteners are used to retain. Thus the race is locked into the case and we're able to save a case that has had the race bore ripped out.
If you look inside the case at that dark ring, that is the outer race for the overrunning clutch. The oem part has a very fine spline cut into it's periphery, then it's pressed into the housing and has an "insurance" set screw locked into a indentation.
The repair race is exactly the same except it has three holes drilled into it. Those holes have to align with three of the holes that retain the output shaft support and three special fasteners are used to retain. Thus the race is locked into the case and we're able to save a case that has had the race bore ripped out.
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Chadderbox74
New member
My Dad just called... His friend has an old dodge motorhome with a 440 in it and an auto-tranny. His friend told me I could have the motor and tranny! Just have to go pull 'em.
Would this tranny bolt up to my 383?
Would this tranny bolt up to my 383?
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Yes...the transmission will bolt right up to your engine in the charger.
But...the entire tailshaft/housing on the dodge motorhome transmission is completely different! It would be exactly like the one shown in my pic of the red transmission.
The motorhome units use a very "hd" tailhousing, some have the parking brake mounted on the extension, some don't. And all have a large ball bearing to support the output yoke which is retained with a nut and is most likely a "1350" u-joint size.
Your passenger car version of the tf727 has a completely different long tailhousing with only a bushing to support the output shaft. And...it uses a "slip yoke" on the output shaft spline.
The motorhome tranny would be an excellent core to rebuild into a super-strong slushbox for the charger, but it would need the output shaft and tailhousing from the charger trans installed during rebuild. The motorhome unit uses a four pinion planetary system which is a bit stronger and should have one additional clutch plate in both clutches.
Bottom line, this is not a "bolt-in" swap!
There are quite a few variations of output shaft configs used across the entire spectrum of the tf 727 transmission spread amongst all the oem apps. Here is a stickee that is used for id and discussions of the transmission variations, including the dodge (and ihc) motorhome units:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...t-407-tf727-variations-parts-differences.html
Chadderbox74
New member
Aargh! So the motorhome tranny is going to be too long?
The motorhome tranny is in good shape. How difficult is it to change the output shaft and tailhousing?
The motorhome tranny is in good shape. How difficult is it to change the output shaft and tailhousing?
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
No, the motorhome trans tailshaft assembly is completely different!
In order to make this work, you must completely teardown the long tailshaft/slip yoke charger trans and remove the output shaft assembly which includes the planetary units. That is the last component that comes out of the case during teardown.
Then do the same with the motorhome trans.
That's the short version, in reality it's a bit more complex than that since during rebuild the planetaries are disassembled to a degree for cleaning and inspection. And depending upon the diameter of the output shaft spline where it engages the planetary carriers, you May be able to swap just the shafts.
So since the motorhome unit is completely wrong regarding it's tailshaft assembly as far as using in a passenger car (your charger), there is no reason to use it. Just have the charger trans rebuilt correctly and in the process repair the damaged components.
Does your charger trans carry a vin/serial number stamped into the pan rail that matches the vin/serial for the car?? If so, the "numbers match" game rears it's head as pertains to a special interest vehicle project like this. Chrysler did this sort of thing, ihc did not and used only the trans assembly part number stamped into the rail, no "number match" of the vin/serial number.
In order to make this work, you must completely teardown the long tailshaft/slip yoke charger trans and remove the output shaft assembly which includes the planetary units. That is the last component that comes out of the case during teardown.
Then do the same with the motorhome trans.
That's the short version, in reality it's a bit more complex than that since during rebuild the planetaries are disassembled to a degree for cleaning and inspection. And depending upon the diameter of the output shaft spline where it engages the planetary carriers, you May be able to swap just the shafts.
So since the motorhome unit is completely wrong regarding it's tailshaft assembly as far as using in a passenger car (your charger), there is no reason to use it. Just have the charger trans rebuilt correctly and in the process repair the damaged components.
Does your charger trans carry a vin/serial number stamped into the pan rail that matches the vin/serial for the car?? If so, the "numbers match" game rears it's head as pertains to a special interest vehicle project like this. Chrysler did this sort of thing, ihc did not and used only the trans assembly part number stamped into the rail, no "number match" of the vin/serial number.
Chadderbox74
New member
What years of a-727 tranny's would I be able to use in my '69 charger?
Any other auto tranny's that would work?
I'm asking, because I've found quite a few in the local classifieds.
Any other auto tranny's that would work?
I'm asking, because I've found quite a few in the local classifieds.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Any non-pushbutton controlled tf 727 post '67 that is from a chrysler product (dodge/plymouth/chrysler passenger car will work. It must be a 727, not it's baby sister tf 904/tf6 used in the compacts.
The unit must have the "long" tailshaft and use a sliding yoke to connect the driveshaft. The best units would be something from a 413/426/440 wedge-powered whatever, though the 383-powered musclecar versions are equally as desirable.
The kicker here is the tailshaft design, no "short" versions as used in some trucks, no "bolt-on yoke" versions used in some trucks and the motorhomes.
The unit must have the "long" tailshaft and use a sliding yoke to connect the driveshaft. The best units would be something from a 413/426/440 wedge-powered whatever, though the 383-powered musclecar versions are equally as desirable.
The kicker here is the tailshaft design, no "short" versions as used in some trucks, no "bolt-on yoke" versions used in some trucks and the motorhomes.
Chadderbox74
New member
Found someone to go thru the tranny. He said it looked like it had been run with little or no fluid, and the reverse (plates?) had fused together. He replaced them.
We put the tranny back in, and everything worked great...
until - the tranny warmed up. Then, while driving and in the high gear - it would feel as though you were "riding" the clutch as in a manual tranny.
The next day, again - everything was great, until the tranny warmed up. Same thing happened. 1st, 2nd and reverse all work fine. It's just when it's in drive that it feels like your "riding" the clutch.
The guy that did the tranny replaced the accumulator piston with one that had steel rings. The one he pulled out had a different type of rings on it. He thinks maybe the rings expand when the tranny warms up and prevents the piston from moving.
Does this sound right?
He wants to drop the pan and valve body and replace the sealing rings.
We put the tranny back in, and everything worked great...
until - the tranny warmed up. Then, while driving and in the high gear - it would feel as though you were "riding" the clutch as in a manual tranny.
The next day, again - everything was great, until the tranny warmed up. Same thing happened. 1st, 2nd and reverse all work fine. It's just when it's in drive that it feels like your "riding" the clutch.
The guy that did the tranny replaced the accumulator piston with one that had steel rings. The one he pulled out had a different type of rings on it. He thinks maybe the rings expand when the tranny warms up and prevents the piston from moving.
Does this sound right?
He wants to drop the pan and valve body and replace the sealing rings.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
After the trans shifts into direct (3rd), both clutches are applied (locked up).
Your description regarding this being related to the internal temp of the trans becoming "normal" and stable tells me one or both clutches are not locking up fully. Possibly the clutches are not assembled correctly as to the number of steels and frictions, the steels are warped, or the clutch pack clearance (selective fit snap-rings) is not correct.
The accumulator rings that May have been present originally sounds from your description to be teflon. Those have come into being over the last ten years and I've never encountered a problem in using 'em. In fact the B&M transmission kits I'm installing in customer units right now use those same rings. The teflon rings and the iron rings are interchangeable on the pistons with no performance/operational differences.
The accumulator serves as a hydraulic "cushion" to soften the 1>2 shift and the 2>3 shift so granma doesn't have her neck popped doing a wot launch at the red light! That is why we discard the accumulator spring when installing an aftermarket shift improver/re-programmer system, we do not want the shifts to be "cushioned" as that is not conducive to transmission service life.
This transmission should be road tested with pressure gauges installed and the operating characteristics/pressures observed both cold and hot.
At the very least, the valve body needs to come down again and the clutches air pressure tested for operation.
Your description regarding this being related to the internal temp of the trans becoming "normal" and stable tells me one or both clutches are not locking up fully. Possibly the clutches are not assembled correctly as to the number of steels and frictions, the steels are warped, or the clutch pack clearance (selective fit snap-rings) is not correct.
The accumulator rings that May have been present originally sounds from your description to be teflon. Those have come into being over the last ten years and I've never encountered a problem in using 'em. In fact the B&M transmission kits I'm installing in customer units right now use those same rings. The teflon rings and the iron rings are interchangeable on the pistons with no performance/operational differences.
The accumulator serves as a hydraulic "cushion" to soften the 1>2 shift and the 2>3 shift so granma doesn't have her neck popped doing a wot launch at the red light! That is why we discard the accumulator spring when installing an aftermarket shift improver/re-programmer system, we do not want the shifts to be "cushioned" as that is not conducive to transmission service life.
This transmission should be road tested with pressure gauges installed and the operating characteristics/pressures observed both cold and hot.
At the very least, the valve body needs to come down again and the clutches air pressure tested for operation.
Chadderbox74
New member
Okay - we're going to try and rebuild the tranny.
Where can I get the best deal on a rebuild kit? What's the best one?
Where can I get the best deal on a rebuild kit? What's the best one?
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Call Jeff at 530-268-0864 and order up a B&M p/n 10229.
That kit contains all components needed to build a super-duty 727 including all frictions and both bands. The output shaft seal will be correct for the version of the 727 you have.
These kits contain all the components needed to install the re-programming kit for the valve body, along with the additional parts installed in the trans to complete the build. Using this kit you will have a 727 built exactly to the same level that B&M provided when they supplied complete 727 units.
The price is outstanding for the level of quality and the grade of components in that kit, you can't do any better.
That kit contains all components needed to build a super-duty 727 including all frictions and both bands. The output shaft seal will be correct for the version of the 727 you have.
These kits contain all the components needed to install the re-programming kit for the valve body, along with the additional parts installed in the trans to complete the build. Using this kit you will have a 727 built exactly to the same level that B&M provided when they supplied complete 727 units.
The price is outstanding for the level of quality and the grade of components in that kit, you can't do any better.
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