Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Hello Mike,
a few quick questions about the install for my new 2300 carb:
1) I have an engine speed sensor and solenoid vacuum valve unit on the firewall. This has both a and b vacuum hoses. I am hooking up the a hose (side) to the base of the 2300? Or leave this plugged at the carb? The b hose (bottom) went to the throttle modulator on my old 2210, do I plug this too? Am I just removeing this entire sensor unit?
2) the 2210 had a carb port-to-low temp vacuum valve (egr system) hose. Do I plug this? The other egr hose just connects to a recirculation valve. Leave this one alone?
3) there is a large breather hose off the driver side valve cover. This was attached to my air cleaner. Do I put some sort of breathable plug on this?
Thanks,
dan
 
Just saw your email dan, but I'll respond here so others May benefit...

When I communicated about this carb with Jeff, he asked if the "one on the shelf" was the one I recommended for you"? I told him yes, so I assume that is the carb yawl settled on?? If so, that is a 2300 "aftermarket" unit as we'd previously hashed about. It's very fresh (and tested) and was put in inventory the third week of October.

Short answers using your bullet points:

1) if you want to connect the dtm stuff, then use a reducer "tee" and connect to that 3/8" manifold vacuum port on the rear of the carb throttle body. Your pcv system should still be plumbed to the separate tube which enters the manifold plenum directly below the rear portion of the carb. However...since that smog stuff is now kinda superfluous, I'd simply leave the dtm guapo disco'd and capped to keep bugs out.

2) if you want a functional egr system, then put a "tee" fitting in the side-exit vacuum nipple on the passenger side of the metering block. Run one side into the thermoswitch port, run the other side to the distributor vacuum advance can.

3) since you need an air cleaner base with a different diameter opening as compared to the 22xx air cleaner, the easiest way to do this is simply use a 10" aftermarket air cleaner with a flat base (not a drop base), those will all have an opening of 5-1/8", an industry standard. Then you add a nipple to a knockout in the air cleaner base and attach a hose from the flame arrestor in your valve cover to that point. That is the clean air intake for the engine internals, air must go in, to allow the pcv system to operate correctly.

You can use an aftermarket 14" air cleaner (no thicker than 2") if you use one with an "offset" base and turn the long side to the rear, otherwise it will interfere with the water neck.

An alternative to connecting the air inlet to the air cleaner base, is to simply remove the flame arrestor and add an aftermarket "breather/filter" to that port, the thread in the valve cover is 3/8" npt. That converts the pcv system to an "open" type design.

I simply can't locate the pics of that carb you have! I photo-document everything I do, I have well over 1,000 carb pics in my archive! I either filed the pics where I can't find 'em...or I erased 'em out of the camera without transferring to the hd...if ya have more questions regarding the vacuum connections, post a pic of the ports and I'll talk ya through it!

Thanks for selecting ihon for your purchase, we'll make certain you are satisfied with the results!
 
Will post some more when I research and tinker a little more.

77' Scout traveler, bone stock, 345 with all of the California emissions equipment and 2210c. Rig sat for over 20 years, just bought it a little over a month ago, 133,000 miles, really clean body and a nice rig in that it has not been fooled with, just the typical damage from sitting in the trees.

The bad... Since it sat for 20+ years, over the last month I've been tinkering a bit on the weekends trying to get this thing to run, or better yet run somewhat right and be able to pass California emissions with a little bit of tweaking.

Things replaced so far...
Plugs, wires, cap, rotor, fuel filter.

Work done so far...
Carburator disassembled, dipped, and re assembled with napa 2210 kit. Made the rookie mistake of not counting turns on the idle needles. Currently they are set at about 1 turn (seem to be turned in more than what others are running). Timing set at 5 degrees btdc (what was called for in the IH service manual for a California 345).

How it runs right now...
1) always starts when cold and runs ok (30-50 degrees outside).
2) sometimes falls flat off of idle (seems a little better now since I tweaked the accelerator pump linkage).
3) seems to be running Rich (keep it in mind that I can only get it to run cold).
4) will die, and not restart when engine gets "almost" warm.

What I think May be wrong...
1) could I have damaged the power valve installing it with a large standard screwdriver?
2) could the power valve actuator be sticking, or mis-operating somehow?
3) I have the float level at 3/16", should I go with 3/8"?
4) the float pivot is not stock, it was replaced some time in the past with a cut off finish nail, seems ok, but could it be a problem?
5) what do you think is causing the "sudden death"? I think I May have a vacuum leak that gets opened up when the low temp vacuum control valve opens (maybe the egr?).

I'm willing to give the Scout about another month of a few hours each weekend before I just give up and sell it to someone in oregon (then go buy a pre-smog Scout)

thanks for your time!
Peter
 
What I think May be wrong...

...

2) could the power valve actuator be sticking, or mis-operating somehow ?

...

5) what do you think is causing the "sudden death"? I think I May have a vacuum leak that gets opened up when the low temp vacuum control valve opens (maybe the egr?).


first things off: find out if it is your egr killing the vehicle! Get it started and running, and see if you can't press up on the egr valve and cause the same death you experience "almost warm." if your death happens very quickly I doubt it's the egr, but by verifying that it isn't stuck open and that it isn't killing your vehicle when you want it to, you can verify it isn't the issue.


in response to #5:
Now, depending on the kind of ignition you have... You could be experiencing Holley ignition module failure, especially if the "death" happens when you're moving slowly/stopping (and thus allowing heat to build up in the engine bay.) in the center of your firewall, there May or May not be a little ignition module box with some connectors leading to your main harness collection, and out to your motor's front end. If it's puking some black rubberish guts out, it May be a module on its way to, or currently at failure, usa.

What I'm talking about does not have any vacuum lines run to it, that's the deceleration module (also emissions, meant to gradually decrease throttle as you let off the pedal) that May be puking out black stuff as well, and failing to cut off vacuum to the dashpot. For me, this specific scenario resulted in a dashpot that increased throttle, which increased vacuum, which increased how hard the dashpot pushed on the throttle, which increased throttle... Etc.

I remember being the one chasing some crazy issue by getting a new cap, replacing plugs and wires, messing with timing so much that the vac advance can has a little greasy spot just for me... I was trying to figure out why, during the warmer summer months, my '77 Scout was simply dying and misfiring, losing power and becoming completely undrivable... Next day it's fine, until the underhood temps climb enough to scare the ignition module into submission!

My specific issue was that the "gold box" ignition module went the way it did in every other Scout II: it heated up on the firewall. I was told to relocate it, maybe mount it on radiating fins, but it was too late. I had to switch to pertronix.

Of course, I could be getting you worked up about absolutely nothing, but it would be ideal if you could examine and verify a seamless ignition setup before messing with a carburetor (michael mayben learnt me on that one.) it would make the whole process a lot easier, and if you know it's not your ignition module or spark setup affecting your situation, you can then point the finger at the carb.

I would highly recommend going over to the ignition side of the forum, read up, maybe try to 'power time' the vehicle and see what number is indicated afterwards - it might surprise you, and it might make an honest difference in how it runs, until it mysteriously dies.


in response to #2:
You've had the carburetor apart. When you reinstalled the power valve actuator, did it go in fairly easily? Mine did, and I thought nothing of it until I realized what it was doing. Mine was actually a pretty sloppy fit.

Now I May be wrong here, but I -think- the "power valve" is set up like this: the heavy actuator, at high manifold vacuum, is drawn up and away from the power valve. When you mash the pedal (and vacuum drops like hell) this actuator's weight overcomes, drops down on the power valve, and enrichens the afr in accordance with your desire for more power!

It really helps to have a vacuum gauge, especially when messing with this type of carburetor in particular. A mity-vac could serve the purpose and then some, and also assist you with brake servicing. The mity-vac would also allow you to apply vacuum to the specific port on your carburetor with the whole shebang still assembled. You can then see how long the actuator holds this vacuum signal... It should, indefinitely.

From my own previously sloppy fit, I'm assuming my actuator was useless, and it even seemed to be from another series of carburetor!

Aside from all that, if you're experiencing a power valve held wide open, it would make sense that it is dumping fuel via that circuit and you'd still run with the idle bleeds turned way down.


As for "falling flat off idle," with my 2210c setup (which I need to ship to mayben just so he can have something else in his collection!) I never found the point where I had full-coverage response upon standstill takeoffs. I'm sure it had to do with more than just the accel pump, but no earthly amount of tinkering with the accel pump linkage got me anywhere... Only some places seemed "better."



now, a couple other things... Float first: I figure if the finish nail fills the holes well enough to be tight, it should work for the float - if I remember correctly, it only has room for a bit of overhang before the bowl body stops it from leaving its position. It's not like this is the first time one of these rigs was backwoods-serviced, and it's surely not as harmful as some shadetree "fixes."

as for the fuel bowl, there is really no good provision for figuring out which setting provides the best bowl full of fuel, but the precursory setpoint I've recognized is this:

- float top face parallel with the bowl cover when fully floated & closed
- float bottom face parallel with the bowl cover when fully dropped & open


peter, to tell you the truth, I don't want you to get rid of this vehicle! You're in the perfect place for learning how to fiddle with these things, and if you can interact with the forum accordingly, we can all work towards finding solutions for one another.

So stay with us, and stay with IH! Good luck!
 
Nice response kyle! You stay with this one and see what yawl can do, I'll jump in if ya git stuck!

My only comment right now...the "napa" kit. I'd definitely need to see the kit contents and the carb in pieces...I never use napa carb kits on anything..we know what works and what doesn't as far as "correct" components!
 
michael,

what kits would you recommend?

Go back to the beginning of this sub-forum and start at post #23. You will see how we determined (thanks to ron!) what kits to use for which 22xx variation.

If your carb has the "short" power valve, the standard hygrade 929a kit is correct as it has gaskets for both the chrysler and the ihc version of the 22xx. And it includes the correct power valve replacement item which is imperative! It also includes both correct carb-to-manifold insulator-type base gaskets, the small rectangular base for the chrysler, and the larger base with the "heat dam" for the IH application. Those gaskets alone sell for $10>$16 separately!
 
is there a way to print this whole thread without going to each page?

You can go into the user control panel under your log-in and set the display for the maximum number of posts to display per "page" that number would be 40.

Afaik, there is no way to spool all posts into a single print document, though some of the real pooterhaids around here May have a workaround.

You could do a very time-consuming cut and paste of each post into a single text doc using whatever word processor app you use, I use open office after abandoning as much microsuk crapware as possible years ago.
 
Ok,
got two vacuum gauges from a friends shop today. So far the best I could get at idle was about 15". It seems to be jumpy at idle until it warms up a little bit.

Kyle, could you describe how to actuate the egr a little better? When I reach under it I feel a rubber diaphragm, do I push on that? I don't want too get crazy destroy it.

As for ignition module problems, it seems to be fine. I've got the timing light hooked up, and even when I have my "sudden death" problem and I can't get it restarted it still has a spark flashing the timing light. I think the Holley gold box was replaced some time before I got it, since a stock IH gold box was sitting on the passenger seat.

As for Mike's concern about the napa kit it seems to have all the correct parts, it came with both the "right" and "wrong" heat insulator gaskets like the ones shown in post #27. I had bought the kit before I ran into the ihonlynorth forum.

I'm going to pull the carb back apart this week or weekend and really clean up the power valve actuator. When I tore the carburetor apart a month ago I really had no idea what it was or what it did, and also did not pull it apart. I just want to eliminate it as a problem before I move onto other things.

Anyway,
I hope to get into it more this week / weekend and I'll post what I find.


Peter
 
ok,
got two vacuum gauges from a friends shop today. So far the best I could get at idle was about 15". It seems to be jumpy at idle until it warms up a little bit.

Kyle, could you describe how to actuate the egr a little better? When I reach under it I feel a rubber diaphragm, do I push on that? I don't want too get crazy destroy it.

As for ignition module problems, it seems to be fine. I've got the timing light hooked up, and even when I have my "sudden death" problem and I can't get it restarted it still has a spark flashing the timing light. I think the Holley gold box was replaced some time before I got it, since a stock IH gold box was sitting on the passenger seat.

As for Mike's concern about the napa kit it seems to have all the correct parts, it came with both the "right" and "wrong" heat insulator gaskets like the ones shown in post #27. I had bought the kit before I ran into the ihonlynorth forum.

I'm going to pull the carb back apart this week or weekend and really clean up the power valve actuator. When I tore the carburetor apart a month ago I really had no idea what it was or what it did, and also did not pull it apart. I just want to eliminate it as a problem before I move onto other things.

Anyway,
I hope to get into it more this week / weekend and I'll post what I find.


Peter

So peter...according to your sig you are just down south of us (state of jefferson)??

We got lottsa buds down 'round medford that can lend a hand if needed, all trained here at binder u.!

A gold box system can exhibit all kinds of erratic issues...and still fire a timing light even when it can't fire plugs! The most common issue I see once it goes into "heatsoak", is very erratic timing if you can keep the motor running long enough to shoot it with a light.

As for the power valve...it's all determined by "which" actuator is installed in the bowl cover, and if it works properly as I have posted regarding testing the actuator using a mity-vac.

The "short" design actuator is used only with the multi-piece, two-stage power valve, that one is made up of the tall housing, the poppet itself, and a spring, all of which have to be assembled during installation back into the fuel bowl receptacle.

The two different types of "long" actuators, are used only with the "short" power valve which is a modular unit and cannot be disassembled, it simply is replaced.

Many of the aftermarket kits do not have the correct power valve, or have no power valve at all contained! That is why I do not use the Holley kits for these carbs, they do not have a power valve of any type included...how dumass!

To manually actuate the egr valve, carefully (the edges of the housing are sharp!!!) stick your finger up in the slot and feel for the diaphragm (it May be hot also!!) and push up. If the engine starts stumbling and the idle goes to hell, then that is what should happen since ya just created a big vacuum leak! If ya get no change idle quality or vacuum, then the valve is already crapped and leaking!

15"hg at sea level> 5,000ft. Definitely indicates a "vacuum" issue, could be ignition, could be carb, could be both! Could be a valve spring broken, could be a valve trying to stick due to non-lubrication of the rocker assembly, could be a flat cam lobe, etc. But ya gotta simply work through each system individually and verify operation.

However,...15"hg would be a normal vacuum reading for a rig running at 5,000>7,000ft. Operational altitude.
 
Ok m/m my 2210c on a 74 304 /727 scout2 has started acting funny and bein a bitch!!!!.
I rebuilt this thing a while back, with some info from you of course.
Ran great up til about a month ago. Now its running Rich as hell at idle and doesnt seem to have any response when the mixture screws are turned in either direction in fact you can shut them both and it still idles. Ruff but it runs. Its a bitch to start after it sets for a few days and it does the typical fire off and die shit repeatedly til you rev it up a couple of times to clear it out.
I have checked this thing for heat boil repeatedly and found none.
The float is set low for climbing hilss and such and the choke sets and pulls off nicely. I'm begining to believe the power valve is sticking open. It does have the correct stuff inside, verified by pictures on here and the fuel pressure is dead on.
Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
 
ok m/m my 2210c on a 74 304 /727 scout2 has started acting funny and bein a bitch!!!!.
I rebuilt this thing a while back, with some info from you of course.
Ran great up til about a month ago. Now its running Rich as hell at idle and doesnt seem to have any response when the mixture screws are turned in either direction in fact you can shut them both and it still idles. Ruff but it runs. Its a bitch to start after it sets for a few days and it does the typical fire off and die shit repeatedly til you rev it up a couple of times to clear it out.
I have checked this thing for heat boil repeatedly and found none.
The float is set low for climbing hilss and such and the choke sets and pulls off nicely. I'm begining to believe the power valve is sticking open. It does have the correct stuff inside, verified by pictures on here and the fuel pressure is dead on.
Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

Hail yes I remember this carb!

Since this has occurred gradually over time, my wag is...the float is heavy! This antique shit don't last forever especially when it sees this freakin' alkygazz!

Go git yoreself a standard motor products replacement float, p/n fl9 and cut yore whinin'! Then set it for both "height" and "drop" like the 'structions sez...ya did keep the 'structions, right??

Yore wife will be even more impressed with yore carbability and how you have wasted yore xmas bonus!

By the way, when ya shut the motor down and look straight down tha gullet, ya will see raw fuel pissin' out the internal vent 'cause the float can't shut off the needle/seat. I bet both crappers in yore house have flapper valves leakin' water and runnin' up yore sewer bill too! Too bad ya kain't just jiggle the handle on that carbamixer huh??
 
Well...
I think you guys were right about gold box ignition problems causing sudden death. I took the traveler for it's maiden voyage around the block to drop off a borrowed blu-ray player, made it about half way and it just died. Tried and tried to restart it, pulled it home with a strap, pulled a wire... No spark.

So, this May be a good thing, the part has finally degraded to the point of complete failure. I ordered up a pertronix ignitor and coil so I can eliminate the gold box.

Maybe by next weekend I'll be back to tinkering with the carburetor once I get the ignition fixed. Anyway I just wanted to give an update. I pulled the carburator back apart on Saturday, found no obvious problems (gaskets seem correct, power valve actuator is smooth, and I adjusted the float to 1/4" from 3/16")

Mike...
State of jefferson = yreka
 
Yreka??? Ya dam shore are one of us!!! I wuz just through there last month! Great leetle burg!

Since yreka is just a suburb of ashland/medford, ya definitely need to hook with the fat white boys there in medford!

Are ya sure ya got the right p-tron sparker for the Holley gold box system, that one is a p/n ho-181.

Also iirc the base elevation there in town is around 2600ft., so I'd expect a decrease in idle vacuum of about 1.5" over a typical sea level reading for a well tuned motor. That means a target to look for would be in the 16"hg+ range.

Once the p-tron is installed, the perform the power timing operation described in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/2122-ignition-power-timing.html

And verify that your vacuum advance can is operational, those can be very problematic, about half of all the distributors I work with have a ng vacuum advance.
 
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Hello, for better or worse I recently acquired a 1975 loadstar 1600 with a dump body carrying 53someoddthousand easy freeway miles that had not been started or run for a couple eons. We got it started using ether and carb cleaner but it runs rough. It stalls at idle and stalls when you try to give it throttle (unless you get lucky and keep the revs up). There is also some backfiring. I don't know if its a 304, 345 or 392.

I put new put new autolite 303 plugs in (not sure of the gap?). It seemed to run a little better (wishful thinking?)but stillwouldn't take throttle and stalled (would mostly only start with ether). Pulled the cap off just to look. But then suddenly billy and me (the now happily previous owner's younger brother) decided to open the points up to inspect them (neither one of us knows what we are looking for).

There were no big boogers hanging off of it so we closed it back up. It wouldn't start at all then so I re-replaced the cap and then it started again. It ran rough again for several seconds then started to run real rough and collapased in a truly massive back fire next to billy who was by this time also unconscious. Carb cleaner and dr. Pepper apparently don't mix well.

According to the pics on your site "billy" (I have just now named the truck in honor of the happily previous owner's younger brother) has a Holley curved point distributor and a Holley 2210 carbuerator.

To make a long story short. I pulled the carbuerator and would like someone who knows what they are doing to rebuild it if that makes sense. Also any recommendations on the ignition timing front. What about a foster home for billy at least until we figure out how to determine his displacement ? Also should I be looking for a real estate agent? Will "billy" will need his own service bay? I'm in socal near riverside, great site you have here.
 
Welcome to ihon dump!

Typical classic IH iron resurrection story, sameold sameold!

Yore gonna have to completely purge and clean out the entire fuel system and associated plumbing! Rotten fuel and blocked fuel delivery are your root cause. That rig most likely had an "evaporative emissions" system on the fuel supply components, just like the light duty stuff, so that makes it somewhat more complex to deal with .

And rotten fuel means rotten carburetor internally. Depending upon which engine ya got, we need to make a positive I.d. Of the carb (and the engine of course). If it's definitely a two venturi carb, then most likely it is a variation of the Holley "22xx" mixer, those were used on even the "mv" versions of the engines in some applications. The mv (medium vee) is the next larger series (physically) in the entire ihc gasoline engine arsenal.

But let's not guess about stuff, if we do that everybody will be really confused and we'll just waste time and words bs'n about crap that don't matter!

So...I need pictures posted of the front of the carb that shows the numbers stamped in the bowl (if it's a 22xx). Also pics of the top and at least one side of the motor and we can help ya make an I.d. Also a pic of the metal "data plate" that is mounted in the door jam on on the kickpanel would help in determining exactly whatcha got. The 1600 and above l-stars can be very difficult to determine exact equipment installed if the lineset ticket is not anywhere to be found. Every vehicle IH built was done to a distinct order/specification set, no two are identical, this is common practice in the truck industry. But of course, there is much commonality amongst all variations.

Ihon does provide a carburetor reconditioning service. In fact, sometime in the coming week we will post a major announcement complete with details and pricing of our entire fuel systems and components program that is being rolled out right now!

And, we also offer distributor reconditioning, either on the customer's distributor or on an exchange basis depending upon our inventory at the time.
 
Time warp, responding to your January 17 request for pictures to determine carb and displacement re: loadstar 1600. May need to send in more than one post.
 
Changed the file size of the picks. Lets see now.
 

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Michael m. When you get a chance please check my previous post in this thread. It has the pictures you asked for re: iding the carb and engine displacement of the loadstar 1600. Let me know what you think about rebuilding the carb. Thanks
 
michael m. When you get a chance please check my previous post in this thread. It has the pictures you asked for re: iding the carb and engine displacement of the loadstar 1600. Let me know what you think about rebuilding the carb. Thanks

Great pics man! Those do tell the story! I'm researching some stuff for ya right now, but it will be later today before I post, I got shop work to do today!
 
Update...
Well I got the pertronix and new coil installed. It now starts easier (what an easy kit to install!). The egr valve was seized, so I pulled it off, soaked it in some penetrating oil and got it working again.

The past two weeks I've been working around the clock on a transformer, then the snowpocalypse came to siskiyou county, California, so no time to work on the traveler.

I should get the egr back on it and be able to dig into this mess a little deeper to see if I can get it to run right. I'll post again once I get it running, double check for vacuum leaks, check the egr and get some vacuum gauge readings.

Peter
 
great pics man! Those do tell the story! I'm researching some stuff for ya right now, but it will be later today before I post, I got shop work to do today!

Well michael should I pack up that carb and send it up for you to rebuild or do you recommend something else ? I need to get that reptile rolling before the po's wife makes him start selling his toroise collection (the plan was to sell the truck to make room in the yard). Seriously the guy has four huge tortoises (from africa). The look just like the desert tortoises we have down here that are native to the mojave, except they are several times larger. They are starting to recognize me. Me and billy (the happily previous owners brother) held a race the other day between the tortoises and the binder. All the tortoises took off in the wrong direction and the binder still came in fifth and looked good doing it. I think it's the corvette inspired fiberglass hood and front fenders.
 
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