Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff
- Thread starter Michael Mayben
- Start date
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
So peter...according to your sig you are just down south of us (state of jefferson)??
We got lottsa buds down 'round medford that can lend a hand if needed, all trained here at binder u.!
A gold box system can exhibit all kinds of erratic issues...and still fire a timing light even when it can't fire plugs! The most common issue I see once it goes into "heatsoak", is very erratic timing if you can keep the motor running long enough to shoot it with a light.
As for the power valve...it's all determined by "which" actuator is installed in the bowl cover, and if it works properly as I have posted regarding testing the actuator using a mity-vac.
The "short" design actuator is used only with the multi-piece, two-stage power valve, that one is made up of the tall housing, the poppet itself, and a spring, all of which have to be assembled during installation back into the fuel bowl receptacle.
The two different types of "long" actuators, are used only with the "short" power valve which is a modular unit and cannot be disassembled, it simply is replaced.
Many of the aftermarket kits do not have the correct power valve, or have no power valve at all contained! That is why I do not use the Holley kits for these carbs, they do not have a power valve of any type included...how dumass!
To manually actuate the egr valve, carefully (the edges of the housing are sharp!!!) stick your finger up in the slot and feel for the diaphragm (it May be hot also!!) and push up. If the engine starts stumbling and the idle goes to hell, then that is what should happen since ya just created a big vacuum leak! If ya get no change idle quality or vacuum, then the valve is already crapped and leaking!
15"hg at sea level> 5,000ft. Definitely indicates a "vacuum" issue, could be ignition, could be carb, could be both! Could be a valve spring broken, could be a valve trying to stick due to non-lubrication of the rocker assembly, could be a flat cam lobe, etc. But ya gotta simply work through each system individually and verify operation.
However,...15"hg would be a normal vacuum reading for a rig running at 5,000>7,000ft. Operational altitude.
towpainter3
Member
Ok m/m my 2210c on a 74 304 /727 scout2 has started acting funny and bein a bitch!!!!.
I rebuilt this thing a while back, with some info from you of course.
Ran great up til about a month ago. Now its running Rich as hell at idle and doesnt seem to have any response when the mixture screws are turned in either direction in fact you can shut them both and it still idles. Ruff but it runs. Its a bitch to start after it sets for a few days and it does the typical fire off and die shit repeatedly til you rev it up a couple of times to clear it out.
I have checked this thing for heat boil repeatedly and found none.
The float is set low for climbing hilss and such and the choke sets and pulls off nicely. I'm begining to believe the power valve is sticking open. It does have the correct stuff inside, verified by pictures on here and the fuel pressure is dead on.
Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
I rebuilt this thing a while back, with some info from you of course.
Ran great up til about a month ago. Now its running Rich as hell at idle and doesnt seem to have any response when the mixture screws are turned in either direction in fact you can shut them both and it still idles. Ruff but it runs. Its a bitch to start after it sets for a few days and it does the typical fire off and die shit repeatedly til you rev it up a couple of times to clear it out.
I have checked this thing for heat boil repeatedly and found none.
The float is set low for climbing hilss and such and the choke sets and pulls off nicely. I'm begining to believe the power valve is sticking open. It does have the correct stuff inside, verified by pictures on here and the fuel pressure is dead on.
Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Hail yes I remember this carb!
Since this has occurred gradually over time, my wag is...the float is heavy! This antique shit don't last forever especially when it sees this freakin' alkygazz!
Go git yoreself a standard motor products replacement float, p/n fl9 and cut yore whinin'! Then set it for both "height" and "drop" like the 'structions sez...ya did keep the 'structions, right??
Yore wife will be even more impressed with yore carbability and how you have wasted yore xmas bonus!
By the way, when ya shut the motor down and look straight down tha gullet, ya will see raw fuel pissin' out the internal vent 'cause the float can't shut off the needle/seat. I bet both crappers in yore house have flapper valves leakin' water and runnin' up yore sewer bill too! Too bad ya kain't just jiggle the handle on that carbamixer huh??
Bentworker
New member
Well...
I think you guys were right about gold box ignition problems causing sudden death. I took the traveler for it's maiden voyage around the block to drop off a borrowed blu-ray player, made it about half way and it just died. Tried and tried to restart it, pulled it home with a strap, pulled a wire... No spark.
So, this May be a good thing, the part has finally degraded to the point of complete failure. I ordered up a pertronix ignitor and coil so I can eliminate the gold box.
Maybe by next weekend I'll be back to tinkering with the carburetor once I get the ignition fixed. Anyway I just wanted to give an update. I pulled the carburator back apart on Saturday, found no obvious problems (gaskets seem correct, power valve actuator is smooth, and I adjusted the float to 1/4" from 3/16")
Mike...
State of jefferson = yreka
I think you guys were right about gold box ignition problems causing sudden death. I took the traveler for it's maiden voyage around the block to drop off a borrowed blu-ray player, made it about half way and it just died. Tried and tried to restart it, pulled it home with a strap, pulled a wire... No spark.
So, this May be a good thing, the part has finally degraded to the point of complete failure. I ordered up a pertronix ignitor and coil so I can eliminate the gold box.
Maybe by next weekend I'll be back to tinkering with the carburetor once I get the ignition fixed. Anyway I just wanted to give an update. I pulled the carburator back apart on Saturday, found no obvious problems (gaskets seem correct, power valve actuator is smooth, and I adjusted the float to 1/4" from 3/16")
Mike...
State of jefferson = yreka
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Yreka??? Ya dam shore are one of us!!! I wuz just through there last month! Great leetle burg!
Since yreka is just a suburb of ashland/medford, ya definitely need to hook with the fat white boys there in medford!
Are ya sure ya got the right p-tron sparker for the Holley gold box system, that one is a p/n ho-181.
Also iirc the base elevation there in town is around 2600ft., so I'd expect a decrease in idle vacuum of about 1.5" over a typical sea level reading for a well tuned motor. That means a target to look for would be in the 16"hg+ range.
Once the p-tron is installed, the perform the power timing operation described in this thread:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/2122-ignition-power-timing.html
And verify that your vacuum advance can is operational, those can be very problematic, about half of all the distributors I work with have a ng vacuum advance.
Since yreka is just a suburb of ashland/medford, ya definitely need to hook with the fat white boys there in medford!
Are ya sure ya got the right p-tron sparker for the Holley gold box system, that one is a p/n ho-181.
Also iirc the base elevation there in town is around 2600ft., so I'd expect a decrease in idle vacuum of about 1.5" over a typical sea level reading for a well tuned motor. That means a target to look for would be in the 16"hg+ range.
Once the p-tron is installed, the perform the power timing operation described in this thread:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/2122-ignition-power-timing.html
And verify that your vacuum advance can is operational, those can be very problematic, about half of all the distributors I work with have a ng vacuum advance.
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dumptruck
New member
Hello, for better or worse I recently acquired a 1975 loadstar 1600 with a dump body carrying 53someoddthousand easy freeway miles that had not been started or run for a couple eons. We got it started using ether and carb cleaner but it runs rough. It stalls at idle and stalls when you try to give it throttle (unless you get lucky and keep the revs up). There is also some backfiring. I don't know if its a 304, 345 or 392.
I put new put new autolite 303 plugs in (not sure of the gap?). It seemed to run a little better (wishful thinking?)but stillwouldn't take throttle and stalled (would mostly only start with ether). Pulled the cap off just to look. But then suddenly billy and me (the now happily previous owner's younger brother) decided to open the points up to inspect them (neither one of us knows what we are looking for).
There were no big boogers hanging off of it so we closed it back up. It wouldn't start at all then so I re-replaced the cap and then it started again. It ran rough again for several seconds then started to run real rough and collapased in a truly massive back fire next to billy who was by this time also unconscious. Carb cleaner and dr. Pepper apparently don't mix well.
According to the pics on your site "billy" (I have just now named the truck in honor of the happily previous owner's younger brother) has a Holley curved point distributor and a Holley 2210 carbuerator.
To make a long story short. I pulled the carbuerator and would like someone who knows what they are doing to rebuild it if that makes sense. Also any recommendations on the ignition timing front. What about a foster home for billy at least until we figure out how to determine his displacement ? Also should I be looking for a real estate agent? Will "billy" will need his own service bay? I'm in socal near riverside, great site you have here.
I put new put new autolite 303 plugs in (not sure of the gap?). It seemed to run a little better (wishful thinking?)but stillwouldn't take throttle and stalled (would mostly only start with ether). Pulled the cap off just to look. But then suddenly billy and me (the now happily previous owner's younger brother) decided to open the points up to inspect them (neither one of us knows what we are looking for).
There were no big boogers hanging off of it so we closed it back up. It wouldn't start at all then so I re-replaced the cap and then it started again. It ran rough again for several seconds then started to run real rough and collapased in a truly massive back fire next to billy who was by this time also unconscious. Carb cleaner and dr. Pepper apparently don't mix well.
According to the pics on your site "billy" (I have just now named the truck in honor of the happily previous owner's younger brother) has a Holley curved point distributor and a Holley 2210 carbuerator.
To make a long story short. I pulled the carbuerator and would like someone who knows what they are doing to rebuild it if that makes sense. Also any recommendations on the ignition timing front. What about a foster home for billy at least until we figure out how to determine his displacement ? Also should I be looking for a real estate agent? Will "billy" will need his own service bay? I'm in socal near riverside, great site you have here.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Welcome to ihon dump!
Typical classic IH iron resurrection story, sameold sameold!
Yore gonna have to completely purge and clean out the entire fuel system and associated plumbing! Rotten fuel and blocked fuel delivery are your root cause. That rig most likely had an "evaporative emissions" system on the fuel supply components, just like the light duty stuff, so that makes it somewhat more complex to deal with .
And rotten fuel means rotten carburetor internally. Depending upon which engine ya got, we need to make a positive I.d. Of the carb (and the engine of course). If it's definitely a two venturi carb, then most likely it is a variation of the Holley "22xx" mixer, those were used on even the "mv" versions of the engines in some applications. The mv (medium vee) is the next larger series (physically) in the entire ihc gasoline engine arsenal.
But let's not guess about stuff, if we do that everybody will be really confused and we'll just waste time and words bs'n about crap that don't matter!
So...I need pictures posted of the front of the carb that shows the numbers stamped in the bowl (if it's a 22xx). Also pics of the top and at least one side of the motor and we can help ya make an I.d. Also a pic of the metal "data plate" that is mounted in the door jam on on the kickpanel would help in determining exactly whatcha got. The 1600 and above l-stars can be very difficult to determine exact equipment installed if the lineset ticket is not anywhere to be found. Every vehicle IH built was done to a distinct order/specification set, no two are identical, this is common practice in the truck industry. But of course, there is much commonality amongst all variations.
Ihon does provide a carburetor reconditioning service. In fact, sometime in the coming week we will post a major announcement complete with details and pricing of our entire fuel systems and components program that is being rolled out right now!
And, we also offer distributor reconditioning, either on the customer's distributor or on an exchange basis depending upon our inventory at the time.
Typical classic IH iron resurrection story, sameold sameold!
Yore gonna have to completely purge and clean out the entire fuel system and associated plumbing! Rotten fuel and blocked fuel delivery are your root cause. That rig most likely had an "evaporative emissions" system on the fuel supply components, just like the light duty stuff, so that makes it somewhat more complex to deal with .
And rotten fuel means rotten carburetor internally. Depending upon which engine ya got, we need to make a positive I.d. Of the carb (and the engine of course). If it's definitely a two venturi carb, then most likely it is a variation of the Holley "22xx" mixer, those were used on even the "mv" versions of the engines in some applications. The mv (medium vee) is the next larger series (physically) in the entire ihc gasoline engine arsenal.
But let's not guess about stuff, if we do that everybody will be really confused and we'll just waste time and words bs'n about crap that don't matter!
So...I need pictures posted of the front of the carb that shows the numbers stamped in the bowl (if it's a 22xx). Also pics of the top and at least one side of the motor and we can help ya make an I.d. Also a pic of the metal "data plate" that is mounted in the door jam on on the kickpanel would help in determining exactly whatcha got. The 1600 and above l-stars can be very difficult to determine exact equipment installed if the lineset ticket is not anywhere to be found. Every vehicle IH built was done to a distinct order/specification set, no two are identical, this is common practice in the truck industry. But of course, there is much commonality amongst all variations.
Ihon does provide a carburetor reconditioning service. In fact, sometime in the coming week we will post a major announcement complete with details and pricing of our entire fuel systems and components program that is being rolled out right now!
And, we also offer distributor reconditioning, either on the customer's distributor or on an exchange basis depending upon our inventory at the time.
dumptruck
New member
Changed the file size of the picks. Lets see now.
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Great pics man! Those do tell the story! I'm researching some stuff for ya right now, but it will be later today before I post, I got shop work to do today!
dumptruck
New member
Ok sensei, grasshopper here is going to try guess part of the story. Could it be that's not the original carb ?
Bentworker
New member
Update...
Well I got the pertronix and new coil installed. It now starts easier (what an easy kit to install!). The egr valve was seized, so I pulled it off, soaked it in some penetrating oil and got it working again.
The past two weeks I've been working around the clock on a transformer, then the snowpocalypse came to siskiyou county, California, so no time to work on the traveler.
I should get the egr back on it and be able to dig into this mess a little deeper to see if I can get it to run right. I'll post again once I get it running, double check for vacuum leaks, check the egr and get some vacuum gauge readings.
Peter
Well I got the pertronix and new coil installed. It now starts easier (what an easy kit to install!). The egr valve was seized, so I pulled it off, soaked it in some penetrating oil and got it working again.
The past two weeks I've been working around the clock on a transformer, then the snowpocalypse came to siskiyou county, California, so no time to work on the traveler.
I should get the egr back on it and be able to dig into this mess a little deeper to see if I can get it to run right. I'll post again once I get it running, double check for vacuum leaks, check the egr and get some vacuum gauge readings.
Peter
dumptruck
New member
Well michael should I pack up that carb and send it up for you to rebuild or do you recommend something else ? I need to get that reptile rolling before the po's wife makes him start selling his toroise collection (the plan was to sell the truck to make room in the yard). Seriously the guy has four huge tortoises (from africa). The look just like the desert tortoises we have down here that are native to the mojave, except they are several times larger. They are starting to recognize me. Me and billy (the happily previous owners brother) held a race the other day between the tortoises and the binder. All the tortoises took off in the wrong direction and the binder still came in fifth and looked good doing it. I think it's the corvette inspired fiberglass hood and front fenders.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Sorry for the delay...I've been trying to determine exactly what that intake system consists of, here's my comments:
the carb in your pics is a Holley 2210c and is most likely correct (based on my research) for that engine. The numbers all jive. A very common mixer for many IH apps.
What is messin' with me is the unit under the carb. I don't have the correct parts list for that particular loadstar...but I believe what you have is an "electronic" governor unit, not at all like what would have been found on an earlier loadstar/medium duty rig. Those used a 2300g (g for governor) which is a far more complex carburetion system than what you have and must be used in conjunction with a governed distributor also as a package if you want the governor to operate. And the emissions diagram you posted plainly states 2300g! Do you think that label is original to this vehicle??
I have no experience with that electronic governor unit itself, I've only read about 'em, never seen one. It is controlled by that electronic module in the other pic you posted. That module is not a "gold box" ignition system component. So I don't know "how" to service or diagnose that unit, however, if you don't have need for a governor system, then it appears all that stuff is bolt-on and can easily be removed and have just the carb mounted to the intake like on a light line vehicle (Scout II or pickall).
As for the egr, I'd loose all that crap and install a block-off plate in place of the egr valve. Then ya run a vacuum hose direct from the ported vacuum port on the carb to the distributor vacuum can, assuming that the distributor can actually is functional..many are not at this point in time and we have re-manufactured units for replacement.
I have that exact carb on the bench now for reconditioning, it is going down to ihon and be placed in inventory there for sale/exchange. Our "carb shop" information is new and you will find details here:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/new-products-IH-only/3479-IH-only-north-fuel-systems-shop.html
So we could simply do an exchange...or if you want the core you have now rebuilt, then contact Jeff at the store for ordering info and he'll take care of ya and have your carb drop-shipped to me.
I'm still researching that governor unit, I knew this would come up someday, now I need to educate myself!!!
I do have a couple of 2300g carbs that need some serious luv. But they can be turned into nice carbs no doubt, done many of those...just takes alot more time to deal with those than a typical 2300 rebuild. But if this truck is gonna be an "occasional" use rig and not pressed into commercial service, I'd forgo all the governor stuff and just learn how to drive it with an educated foot and gear shift arm!
Also, the distributor I see in the pics is not a Holley governor unit, pics of a governor Holley distributor May be found in post #3 in this thread:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/642-ihc-vehicle-distributor-identification.html
the carb in your pics is a Holley 2210c and is most likely correct (based on my research) for that engine. The numbers all jive. A very common mixer for many IH apps.
What is messin' with me is the unit under the carb. I don't have the correct parts list for that particular loadstar...but I believe what you have is an "electronic" governor unit, not at all like what would have been found on an earlier loadstar/medium duty rig. Those used a 2300g (g for governor) which is a far more complex carburetion system than what you have and must be used in conjunction with a governed distributor also as a package if you want the governor to operate. And the emissions diagram you posted plainly states 2300g! Do you think that label is original to this vehicle??
I have no experience with that electronic governor unit itself, I've only read about 'em, never seen one. It is controlled by that electronic module in the other pic you posted. That module is not a "gold box" ignition system component. So I don't know "how" to service or diagnose that unit, however, if you don't have need for a governor system, then it appears all that stuff is bolt-on and can easily be removed and have just the carb mounted to the intake like on a light line vehicle (Scout II or pickall).
As for the egr, I'd loose all that crap and install a block-off plate in place of the egr valve. Then ya run a vacuum hose direct from the ported vacuum port on the carb to the distributor vacuum can, assuming that the distributor can actually is functional..many are not at this point in time and we have re-manufactured units for replacement.
I have that exact carb on the bench now for reconditioning, it is going down to ihon and be placed in inventory there for sale/exchange. Our "carb shop" information is new and you will find details here:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/new-products-IH-only/3479-IH-only-north-fuel-systems-shop.html
So we could simply do an exchange...or if you want the core you have now rebuilt, then contact Jeff at the store for ordering info and he'll take care of ya and have your carb drop-shipped to me.
I'm still researching that governor unit, I knew this would come up someday, now I need to educate myself!!!
I do have a couple of 2300g carbs that need some serious luv. But they can be turned into nice carbs no doubt, done many of those...just takes alot more time to deal with those than a typical 2300 rebuild. But if this truck is gonna be an "occasional" use rig and not pressed into commercial service, I'd forgo all the governor stuff and just learn how to drive it with an educated foot and gear shift arm!
Also, the distributor I see in the pics is not a Holley governor unit, pics of a governor Holley distributor May be found in post #3 in this thread:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/642-ihc-vehicle-distributor-identification.html
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dumptruck
New member
Wel I don't believe in too much "governing" so you suggestions for simplification sound good to me. I will contact the store and ask them to send me the carb you are working on as soon as it is finished. I'm thinking I should hang on to my core until I mount the rebuilt just in case I need any of the linkages.
What do you think about taking off the governor unit and stripping out all the moving parts and putting it back in as a spacer so the mounting height and linkage doesn't change ? You asked if I think the label talking about the 2300g is original to that truck. I don't really know but I suppose even if it is it doesn't mean it accurately reflects what was oem.
The distributor looks like a 1510 according to your pics. Does the store have one of those reconditioned with a petronix. Would you recommend that or something else?
Thanks a lot for your comments. Enjoy your trek this weekend.
dumptruck
New member
Michael, I talked to Jeff this morning and placed an order for the Holley 2210c you have on your bench for rebuilding. He said he would let you know. Listing all my akas here so there is no confusion when he contacts you. Dumptruck aka chris williams aka george c. Williams. Later and thank you for your help.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Thank you for the order chris! I'll get this one finished up asap! Jeff will send me the invoice/packing slip today, I've now staged the carb under discussion with a note with your name on it!
I've been buried in a video production regarding the rebuild of a tf 727 transmission all weekend, so I have not had time to do any more research on your "electronic governor"
but from the pics, I see no reason you can't simply remove all that stuff and store away. Looks like an "auxiliary" throttle body to me!
Your replacement carb will have the proper "heat insulator" base gasket packed with it. You May need to install shorter studs also. If you need to use a spacer, then I think I can come up with the proper item locally, so give me a measurement of the "thickness" of the throttle body that is there now, appears to be a nominal one inch??
Once you have that spacer out of the way, take some pics of top of the manifold and I can see if you really need any additional spacer. Since all the IH-produced intake manifolds I'm aware of other than the ones used on the palmer marine engine conversions, already have a medium-high rise plenum, spacers are not normally used except in performance upgrades. There is much room under the hood on a loadstar for air cleaner clearance, the overall stack height should not be critical. This is new ground for me so let's see how we can make this work in a correct manner, that will help others in the future I'm sure!
If ya need to send me pics directly, you can use my ihon business email addy:
michael@IHPartsAmerica.com
And I'll jump right on that.
I've been buried in a video production regarding the rebuild of a tf 727 transmission all weekend, so I have not had time to do any more research on your "electronic governor"
but from the pics, I see no reason you can't simply remove all that stuff and store away. Looks like an "auxiliary" throttle body to me!
Your replacement carb will have the proper "heat insulator" base gasket packed with it. You May need to install shorter studs also. If you need to use a spacer, then I think I can come up with the proper item locally, so give me a measurement of the "thickness" of the throttle body that is there now, appears to be a nominal one inch??
Once you have that spacer out of the way, take some pics of top of the manifold and I can see if you really need any additional spacer. Since all the IH-produced intake manifolds I'm aware of other than the ones used on the palmer marine engine conversions, already have a medium-high rise plenum, spacers are not normally used except in performance upgrades. There is much room under the hood on a loadstar for air cleaner clearance, the overall stack height should not be critical. This is new ground for me so let's see how we can make this work in a correct manner, that will help others in the future I'm sure!
If ya need to send me pics directly, you can use my ihon business email addy:
michael@IHPartsAmerica.com
And I'll jump right on that.
I just finished rebuilding my 2210 with Holley kit 3-887. It still splutters and surges. The kit did not include a new power valve. Can you reference a source that sells the power valve only? Also, I have noticed that there is a mysterious vacuum hole in the throttle body that has been plugged in almost every picture I have seen on the internet of the 2210. My carb has not been plugged! Should I plug it?