It ran...for a minute

Provience

Provience

Member
So I was able recently to get my 1976 terra w/345 t-19 unilight dist and mallory coil to run and idle smooth with the freshly rebuilt 2210 carb, thanks in large part to all your help. While checking for leaks, I opened the throttle to add some pressure and managed to create a loud lifter rattle on the passanger side :incazzato: . Shut the motor down and hooked up a mechanical oil pressure gauge, as the electric one must have taken a shit, and fired it up just long enough to verify zero oil pressure.

Figured we would pull the dist and run the oil pump off the drill to see what we could see and that is where the fun started. When we pulled the dist out, the oil pump drive on the end of the shaft had twisted and snapped flush with the top of the oil pump :yikes:

turns out that to remove the oil pump on a stock height Scout II, it is possible to remove the steering linkage and have enough space to finangle out the pump seperate from the pick-up tube.

When the pump was out and in my hands, it would not rotate at all. After dissasembly, the gears had made contact with the plate that sits below them and managed to wear up enough metal to cause the hole thing to seize together, thus snapping my dist shaft. :skep:
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Purchased the oil pump rebuild kit from Jeff
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And cut out the old gears
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And installed the new ones. The rebuild kit states that you need .003" of clearance min. So I used both supplied appropriate gaskets to get that.
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Iirc, my engine rebuild kit only had 1 gasket and it must not have given me enough clearance.
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For the plate, I used various grits of sand paper, finishing with steel wool, to remove the ridges created, though contact marks still remain in the plate.
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Question: will this cause the same failure in the future? The rebuild kit did not have a new plate so I am hoping that it will be okay.

With everything re-installed, I am getting ~25 psi at "very slow drill speed"
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And ~45 psi at "fast drill speed"
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Do these numbers sound good running 10-30w oil? It seems like it should be good to me, but asking doesn't usually hurt anything.

I have at least another week while I wait for mallory to send out another shaft, so there is plenty of time to pull it apart and play around some more if need be.
 

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Your new pressures look fine for 10-30 but I would not run 10-30 in your sv. 10 or 15-40 minimum. I would go to 20-50. As you know we intend to beat these things up and that gives you high oil temps. The 50 protects your engine there.

Also the normal 10-30 won't have enough zinc or other ep additives to protect your flat tappet cam.

Swepco has a good oil for you. I would call Jeff for some.

The wear marks in your oil pump plate are not desired but will not likely cause any issues if you are getting the pressures you posted on water (10-30).:icon_rotate:

an easy way to check pump gear end clearance for sure is to measure how much the shaft moves up and down in the pump body when assembled. A dial indicator will do if you have one.
 
Awesome, I do have a dial inidicator and will check the play with it all put back together, that seems way better than my haggard way of using feeler gauges during assembly, extremely vauge ftr :crazy:

thanks for the heads up on the oil, I will replace the 30w with 20-50 as that is what I run in my diesel as well.
 
I agree with robertk about the "face" of the oil pump plate. But, you are getting good oil pressure.

Assume you replaced the oil filter, also? After this "adventure".
 
Not all of the I-4 and sv oil pumps use the plate between the pump gear/chamber and the end cover.

Many have only an end cover that along with the gasket thickness (selectable) provides the end play.

The sii pump you see peeking out in the pic attached to post #27 in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/gas-engine-tech/3135-oil-pump-relief-valve-shimming.html

Does not use the intermediate plate.

The end plate that you have which has the wear pattern can be easily repaired by a machine shop by regrinding if you want to go that route, or simply find another scrapper oil pump (usually full of rust and grunged oil), surface it onna surface plate, and then re-set the end float.

In fact...if ya have access to a surface plate, you could cut that plate down fairly quickly using emery paper and oil.

If one were "blueprinting" the oil pump to achieve minimum endplay, a machine shop would grind the bottom of the housing mating surface flat, then grind the ends of the new gears to achieve whatever end play spec they were looking for when using a selective-fit gasket.

This is a highly unusual situation that developed, that pump most likely had endplay that was non-existent in order to seize like that once all the guts expanded due to engine heat.

Warning...when you receive the replacement distributor shaft from mallory you must set the endplay when installing the drive gear, they only sell new distributors for IH stuff with no gear as they are not obtainable form any source we've found. The last three mallory distributors I've rebuilt all had huge end play, enuff that there is no way they could have provided a stable timing signal...one was nearly 3/16" which is a mile!

Endplay is adjusted by using shims between the gear face and the end of the lower distributor body.
 
Provience,
I had a thought that the distributer might have caused your issue. Take some time and do this quick test.

After stabbing the dizzy in where you want it and tightening the hold down clamp, see if you can still feel the up and down clearance that you had when the dizzy was on the bench.

I question that because the damage was on the drive side of your pump like the shaft was pushed down into the cover by the dizzy. Would hate to hear the pump ate its self again.:yikes:
 
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Thanks for the advice, I will give this a shot when I get the new shaft and such. I was thinking something like that May have had an impact on it after michael mayben mentioned the need to run spacers and I didn't come across any when I took the distributor apart.

Will update by the end of next week.
 
Well, turns out that I have been getting the "be in next week" treatment from tognottis (the company that was recommended to go through from my local mallory reseller) for about the last month.

Question, does anybody hear have any way of ordering the shaft for a mallory unilite dist # 3761701h? It uses the gold weights and should come with the shaft and base plate pressed on for around $60 + frt (price quoted from tog, willing to pay more to get the damn thing). Word on the street says this has to come from the parts department in ohio.

I looked on the mallory website, and they have a repair form to send the unite in, but I am not the original purchaser (spl?) and it is surely out of warrenty.
 
I would call mallory directly and explain the situation and that you need to purchase a replacement shaft assembly. And explain the scruuaround regarding tognotti so they will understand that you have attempted to go through the normal retail channels with no success. They will either handle your needs or turn you to a retailer that will take care of ya. And most likely that will be a retailer that does not do bizz on the I-net but takes care of customers using a yellow pad, a pencil, and a telephone and fully understands that taking care of customers is their only business.

I had this same discussion with the owner of an independent garage in lodi, CA just a few weeks ago! He's been dealing with tognotti for years but tells me they are now in the pep boys mode and have a great selection of license plate frames and air fresheners. He contacted us for assistance with Holley carb stuff that could not be handled by the big t.

I used to stop in there at least once a month and snake stuff when I lived down there, it's a shame that right when the whole traditional hot rod bizz is booming (yeah, even in these economic times!!), they have decided to compete with the chain parts bins.
 
Well it turns out that mallory straight out refuses to sell the shaft to the customer :mad: so today out went the entire assembly, it pieces, so that they could rebuild it and ship it back. Estimated time: 4 weeks. At least this way I should not need to deal with the spacer shims, although I will double check end play after installation.

Will provide updates when everything is back together, time to add some fuel stabilizer to all that new gas :icon_rolleyes:
 
provience said:
well it turns out that mallory straight out refuses to sell the shaft to the customer :mad: so today out went the entire assembly, it pieces, so that they could rebuild it and ship it back. Estimated time: 4 weeks. At least this way I should not need to deal with the spacer shims, although I will double check end play after installation.

Will provide updates when everything is back together, time to add some fuel stabilizer to all that new gas :icon_rolleyes:
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Yep, mallory is protecting their dealer base. Most companies no longer care at all about their retail dealers who made them a name and have put significant investment into handling these type products to establish an inventory, and then have the manufacturer cut the props out from under them by direct marketing.
 
59 days and several hours later, the prodigal unilite has returned!! I will post pictures when the wife and camera are around. Endplay as set by the factory is .025"
 
So, I got the ignition all set and ready to roll, but was only able to get it to start on starter fluid and only able to idle/stay running at any speed while forcing the choke closed. Pulled the top off the carb to see what kind of issue it was having and discovered what is best described as pond scum. Pulled the jets and the power valve for a good soaking just to make sure that this was my issue and was able to drive around the block.

I am fairly certain that this green slime is all throughout the carb and causing some issues, so Monday it shall be torn apart, again. I will try to post good pictures of the innards if I can.

Anybody have any thoughts on what would turn green and slimy inside the carb trash collector/valves/everywhere the gas goes? It was cleaned fully about three months ago, ran momentarily on a mix of really old gas and some new gas, sat for a month, added fuel stabilizer to tank, sat for another month, gunked up.
 
Typical fuel deterioration from the suspect fuel that was left in the system when it last ran.

The "old gas" was the major culprit, it can't be brought back to life even in it's dilute state. Once it's gone it's poison to any engine/fuel system, either carb or efi. Shit will simply not burn, I've been preaching about this for way more than two years!

The fuel stabilizer you used did nothing, the fuel was already gone! The only stabilizer to use is stabil "marine" formula (blue in color). It will stabilize e10. The oldskool stabil "red" has no effect with e10. You use stabil marine with fresh fuel (e10 or otherwise).

One more time...unstabilized e10 has an effective shelf life once dispensed from the pump of about two weeks nominal, after that it rapidly deteriorates unless treated.
 
Good to know regarding the fuel intank life. It looks like I will need to stock up on stabilizer.

Pulled the carb off yesterday and did a quick clean with aerosol carb cleaner and compressed air. I didn't want to soak it because I the gaskets and such are only a couple months old and only stuck to one half of the body instead of ripping in two. Also while I had the carb apart I figured out how the thermostatic choke and fast idle linkage hook up and now have a functioning choke.

As soon as it got fuel, the truck fired right up! Cold idle oil psi was 40, so it seems like the pump rebuild worked. After another minute of running, my wife looked up horrified and told me to shut it off. The fuel pump had developed a massive leak and was pumping gas out from where the body was crimped together :yikes: another victim of bad gas and long sitting it seems.

Picked up another fuel pump from the lights and oil store (surprisingly had on shelf) and charged the battery.

Today, fired right up!!! And after some idle adjustment seems to be doing okay. I am letting it run out front right now, trying to burn through that gas (smells horrible coming out the tailpipe)

thank you for all your help and advice along the way, now I can work on things aside from the motor.

Also today I went to dmv for an unrelated issue and decided to find out what was needed to get the Scout street legal again, turns out they want $650.00 just for registration and penalties and I need to do a lien sale because it was abandoned after being salvaged from an accident :icon_cry:

now I just need to decide if I should just green sticker it instead and go a different direction with the project.
 
provience said:
also today I went to dmv for an unrelated issue and decided to find out what was needed to get the Scout street legal again, turns out they want $650.00 just for registration and penalties and I need to do a lien sale because it was abandoned after being salvaged from an accident :icon_cry:

now I just need to decide if I should just green sticker it instead and go a different direction with the project.
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Oh the joys of kalifornikate auto rejustrashun, huh?:crazy: that suks!
 
Well they definately don't want you to revive anything. If I ohv it then at least I won't have to fix the bodywork/lights/mirrors!

After letting it idle for a while, I was feeling bold and figured I would try and make it down to ihon in Loomis to compare my wiring mess with a wiring mess on one of the mules you have down there. Didn't make it.

Idle, acceleration, deceleration were all smooth after idleing for about 30 minutes. I was not having any issue maintaining speed at all.

Stopped at probably the fourth stop sign and the motor when all the way past idle to dead. It would turn over, but wouldn't fire, so I pushed it off to the side of the road and opened the hood. The fuel filter before the carb and after the mech pump was roughly 1/4 full, not bad. The under hood temperature was hot, I do not have a functioning temp gauge or an infrared thermometor (May get one today) so I left the hood open.

I tried to start the motor, it would only turn over with a maximum of one fire if I worked the gas pedal. Called for a ride and let the Scout sit for about ten minutes. Tried to start again just for kicks and it fired right up no problems.

I do have the appropriate carb base gasket with the heat dam, but I do believe that fuel percolation was the problem. Might just be the bad gas coupled with a high under hood temp decided to give up on me. This weekend it looks like I will be draining the tank and trying again with some fresh fuel.
 
WOW! This poor thing has been sitting for 10 years!

oddly enough, I happen to have a propane setup from another project taking up space at the moment. that might be just what the old scout needs to be happy :)

well, surely a full freshen up as well at this point lol
 
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