Proper Clutch Identification

[ihpartsjeff]

While updating other threads I came across these pictures that I have had of the different clutch's that were available from IH. These pictures should help when trying to identify which clutch you May have in your IH.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Great idear Jeff!

I'll post up the companion "flywheel" id info we discussed that I've put together. Do you have any pics or drawings of those items other than parts list data which is not helpful in identifying the nuances of the various flywheel apps?

Also, do ya have similar info for the various clutch discs used with each type clutch cover? Dantastic and I were talking that schnizz just a few weeks ago when he showed me some "stuff" regarding a few clutch discs I have, first time anyone has ever pointed that out to me! I luv it when kidz know shit I don't!

 

[ihpartsjeff]

great idear Jeff!

I'll post up the companion "flywheel" id info we discussed that I've put together. Do you have any pics or drawings of those items other than parts list data which is not helpful in identifying the nuances of the various flywheel apps?

Also, do ya have similar info for the various clutch discs used with each type clutch cover? Dantastic and I were talking that schnizz just a few weeks ago when he showed me some "stuff" regarding a few clutch discs I have, first time anyone has ever pointed that out to me! I luv it when kidz know shit I don't!

Thats all I have on the clutch pics michael. I've been meaning to post them for some time now and finally remembered to do it.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Here's a new thread pertaining to flywheel I.d. That can be used in conjunction with the clutch I.d. Deal!

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...-light-duty-engine-flywheel-I-d.html#post6142

 

[Greg R]

Do you guys have any info on the lineset codes relating to clutches?

My 800's code is 11107 for a "clutch&control". I know it's a 10" 9 spring long style from working on it, but I wouldn't know from the build sheet unless I knew the code.

The 1210's is 11216 on the ticket, listed as an 11" 6 spring. Haven't seen it in person yet.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Here's what I have:

your code 11107 shows to be a Dana-source 10in. Unit for a Scout w/196 or sv engine, 9 spring, 1320lb. Pressure plate.

Your code 11216 is a Dana-source 11in. Unit, 6 spring, "heavy duty angle link" for Scout and 1010>1510 with any sv engine app, 2000lb. Pressure plate.

An example of an "angle link" clutch system is here:

clutch kit angle link type 11" - IH Parts America Scout

Pop the dust cover off the pickup and ya should be able to look up and see which clutch it actually has, the angle link clutch is very "unique" in appearance.

 

[Greg R]

pop the dust cover off

Yeppir, that's perzactly what's there. Even sez so on the pressure plate: "spicer angle link".

What's the track record for this style? I've got no problems, but there's lots of sentiment in the IH community not favorable to them. I don't think they're up to diesel apps.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Sorry greg! I mistakenly did an "edit" on your post instead of a response with a new post!

Here's what I meant...

If the pressure plate system is not of the proper spec for the power characteristics of any application, then no, it won't hold up in the long term or in abuse situations! And I constantly see "replacement" clutches installed based on "cheepest", not proper spec...along with reusing the pilot bearing, throwout bearing/collar, and throwout fork that are shit, that goes along with installing the clutch disk azzbackwards!! And then the "fault" is "bad clutch", or "made in china", or "bad run of parts".

As for sentiment in the IH community...let's see them folks put up some fact with examples of the sentiment! I've heard the same for the last 30+ years regarding diaphragm clutches. But it's not the design that matters, it's the specification for the correct application. Kinda like that "cast" vs. "stamped" water pump impeller deal????

 

[Greg R]

You can edit my posts?
yes, I hear ya on application issues. One thing on diaphragm clutches is they are real particular about bellhousing alignment on concentricity & being parallel. All clutches really are, and I look at the clutch as a power transfer "system" that goes from the pedal to The fwheel.
I wonder how many get their warranty claim on "bad, made in cheena" stuff.

 

[Tiny Yokum]

On a new clutch disc and rebuilt pp, the adjustment rod in the slave cylinder is screwed all the way out and it just barely dis-engages. Also do you know if there are 2 throw out bearing collars or just 1.
This is on a 68 1200c with 392, 4 speed, hydraulic clutch.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Nice lookin' motor tiny!!

A quick tour through various parts list for fullsize stuff shows at least four different p/n's for the sleeve/bearing assembly, the sleeve itself was not available separately, the bearing of course was.

Jeff and I dug through a box of these items in October and he pointed out the differences, but I don't remember which is which!

I have here two identical sleeves, one with bearing, one without. As ya can see the critical length to the point where the throwout bearing seats on the shoulder is 3-1/4" on these two. And I "think" (based on all the parts there were in a pile I received that came from the same rig), that this sleeve is for the diaphragm clutch only. So this is the "short" one. Iirc, the longer sleeve is for the borg and beck or long clutch cover. Seems it was approximately 1" longer overall.

Also varies with "which" transmission code we're talkin'. The parts list does not give "helpful" data such as length!

Jeff will check this for ya when he can, he sounded pretty rough on the phone today so hopefully he's feeling well enough to open the doors and phones tomorrow.

Did you swap from one type clutch to the other when ya pulled the motor for freshen??

 

[Tiny Yokum]

Thanks for the research and pictures michael. Those sleeves look just like the (2) I have. About 15 years ago, I was able to locate a collar that iirc was about 1" longer, for a sii, it still works great. I tried a different looking cover this time but the t/o bearing was too far away to contact the fingers. Went back to original cover (pp) with new disc and adjusted the rod to where it releases but there is only about 1/2" threaded into the y end. Seems like it's at the far end of the travel spectrum. Guess I'll run it for a while, just seems a little sketchy. Thanks again, merry Christmas to all !

 

[ihpartsjeff]

Here are some pictures that I took in the past of various collars.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Now that collection is impressive!

Do any of 'em carry any kinda p/n or id? Neither of the ones I have do, so this leetle project will be a bitch.

Next project, matching all those collars with transmission and clutch codes! No doubt there are rigs that have been sitting for years out there just because nobody can make the clutch play nice and they gave up!

The two collars I have were included inna box that had two used and one new clutch cover, all three different. The new one is a nos cover from IH with an IH p/n. This was stuff thrown inna box, obviously intended to go into a pickup that was a slushbox and has every small piece needed for the conversion. But since there are duplicates of some of the parts, but they also are different from each other, I got no way of knowing what's what without p/n's!

This would be typical if someone went to pepzone and tried to source a clutch kit...all they'd know is that the replacement don't work but the countermonkee sez it will!

So as part of the puzzle...tiny...do you have the original clutch cover that was used with the collar you have installed? And...did you install a new/reman clutch cover that is the same type?

All the other collars I have around are for Scout 80/800 and are completely different and non-interchangeable. Like the one in this pic. This is a "core" that can be repaired and then re-used just like new.

 

[Tiny Yokum]

This is the same as the one I installed. I put them side by side and they matched, they also both came out of 345/4 speed 1200c. The 1/2" longer one would have been better.

 

[Tiny Yokum]

The clutch works fine with the 2" collar, now the slave cylinder is leaking. Are rebuild kits available?
Checked again, the boot had some oil on it from when I bled it.

 

[Michael Mayben]

I never did post the flywheel identification stuff I said I would.

So here it is.

All I-4 and sv flywheels will "mount" to any I-4/sv crankshaft hub. In other words, they will "interchange" on any crankshaft.

But due to the totally different manner in which the 1-4 engines are balanced as compared to the sv engines, the flywheels do not interchange for that reason!

This pic shows a 152/196 flywheel from the "rear" where it interfaces with the crankshaft. Notice the entire rear of the flywheel is a "full circle" which has been actually machined down into a nice finish. There are specific balance holes drilled into this flywheel that match it to the engine it was originally installed upon.

 

[Michael Mayben]

This picture shows a typical sv flywheel (266/304/345/392). Notice the counterweight segment which is a part of the flywheel itself.

Again, this flywheel was originally part of an entire, matched/balanced engine when the engine was assembled on the transfer line at the factory. It accurately matches only the engine it was installed on when the partially-assembled engine went to the "balance station" on the assembly line.

The ring gear is common to all flywheels and is replaceable.

 

[Tiny Yokum]

this picture shows a typical sv flywheel (266/304/345/392). Notice the counterweight segment which is a part of the flywheel itself.

Again, this flywheel was originally part of an entire, matched/balanced engine when the engine was assembled on the transfer line at the factory. It accurately matches only the engine it was installed on when the partially-assembled engine went to the "balance station" on the assembly line.

The ring gear is common to all flywheels and is replaceable.

Mr. Mayben,
I want to install a sv345 from a '79 sii 727 at into my '75 sii which currently runs a 304 t-19. Can I have the 304 flywheel balanced to work on the 345 ?

 

[Michael Mayben]

Yes!

The best way/least expensive would be to simply have the flywheel you are going to use..."neutral balanced" along with the companion clutch assembly you will be running. And that would be done after the flywheel is checked to make sure it can be re-surfaced, and then the re-surface is completed.

In other words, the entire new rotating assembly would be neutral balanced so it won't affect the rest of the motor, not the best methodology (which would be a full balance job), but will certainly work just fine.

 

[Tiny Yokum]

yes!

The best way/least expensive would be to simply have the flywheel you are going to use..."neutral balanced" along with the companion clutch assembly you will be running. And that would be done after the flywheel is checked to make sure it can be re-surfaced, and then the re-surface is completed.

In other words, the entire new rotating assembly would be neutral balanced so it won't affect the rest of the motor, not the best methodology (which would be a full balance job), but will certainly work just fine.

Thank you sir.

 

[stu simpson]

nice lookin' motor tiny!!

A quick tour through various parts list for fullsize stuff shows at least four different p/n's for the sleeve/bearing assembly, the sleeve itself was not available separately, the bearing of course was.

Jeff and I dug through a box of these items in October and he pointed out the differences, but I don't remember which is which!

I have here two identical sleeves, one with bearing, one without. As ya can see the critical length to the point where the throwout bearing seats on the shoulder is 3-1/4" on these two. And I "think" (based on all the parts there were in a pile I received that came from the same rig), that this sleeve is for the diaphragm clutch only. So this is the "short" one. Iirc, the longer sleeve is for the borg and beck or long clutch cover. Seems it was approximately 1" longer overall.

Also varies with "which" transmission code we're talkin'. The parts list does not give "helpful" data such as length!

Jeff will check this for ya when he can, he sounded pretty rough on the phone today so hopefully he's feeling well enough to open the doors and phones tomorrow.

Did you swap from one type clutch to the other when ya pulled the motor for freshen??

thanks for the research and pictures michael. Those sleeves look just like the (2) I have. About 15 years ago, I was able to locate a collar that iirc was about 1" longer, for a sii, it still works great. I tried a different looking cover this time but the t/o bearing was too far away to contact the fingers. Went back to original cover (pp) with new disc and adjusted the rod to where it releases but there is only about 1/2" threaded into the y end. Seems like it's at the far end of the travel spectrum. Guess I'll run it for a while, just seems a little sketchy. Thanks again, merry Christmas to all !

Ok I am trying to help 2 different guys with to/sleeve issues and they have similar problems albeit different applications!!!!!! Their setups want longer to setups as their assemblies "fall off" the end of input bearing retainer tube before they think the bearing engages the fingers.

situation #1:

1978 Scout II t19 close ratio transmission with bell and bellcrank, was missing the to assembly. Was behind a 304. Worked swimmingly prior to removal. Wants to put it in a Scout 800 that had a t90. Is trying to re-use the clutch and to bearing that was with the t90. The t90 has a much longer tube than the t19. The input shaft is exposed 4 5/8" on the t19 (as it is on ther t18, t19s and t98s in my shop), about 2" on the t90. The assembly falls off the t19 tube before it engages the clutch fingers. Through research, I have found that the stiock finger height regardless of plate is between 2.125" and 2.25". The variable would be the length of the collar and where the bearing presses onto the collar. Both to forks are identical between the Scout 800 with the t90 and the sii with the t19. edit: upon measurement the to/collar assembly on the t90 setup is 2 13/16 long and the t90 bell crosshaft seems to be further forward than a 4 speed bell. May help explain things!!!

In the pic above of the side by side collars, one has a bearing and the other doesn't. The bearing seems to be pressed onto the thin boss on the end of the collar. All of the ones in my shop have the bearing pressed down over the full machined surface so that is contacts the shoulder. The end of the casting is flush with the face of the to bearing. The length of these assemblies is 3 3/8" long, total (have 4 or 5). The above pic shows an assembly about 4" long total. I am not assuming for a minute that any or all of these donor rigs had the proper to assembly, I am just saying that the assemblies sitting next to each other are identical although they came from sii, s800s and d series trucks.

It sounds like he needs the 4" long assembly???????????? What is stock behind a sii???? Does it vary by transmission????

situation #2:

Guy is trying to diagnose bad clutch. Finds one broken arm on pp. Is a b&b plate. To assembly is 3 3/8" long. Finger height is 2.125". Setup is a 196ic, t15 3 speed. Truck supposedly ran and drove fine prior to plate failure (something had to cause the arm to break, right?). Same issue....bearing assembly wants to fall off the input bearing retainer tube before it engages the fingers.......

Wrong collar, or wrong bearing pressed onto wrong boss?

 

[Tiny Yokum]

yes!

The best way/least expensive would be to simply have the flywheel you are going to use..."neutral balanced" along with the companion clutch assembly you will be running. And that would be done after the flywheel is checked to make sure it can be re-surfaced, and then the re-surface is completed.

In other words, the entire new rotating assembly would be neutral balanced so it won't affect the rest of the motor, not the best methodology (which would be a full balance job), but will certainly work just fine.

ok, took your advise michael.
Had my flywheel and clutch cover match balanced After resurfacing and rebuilding.
Picture shows alignment marks in blue dye and drilled in upper right.
Pilot bearing, bolts and the 3 buttons in the middle are new.
​

 

[Michael Mayben]

Thanks for the follow-up! Looks like the builders did a really nice job and knew what they were doing!

Some (but not all) of the various IH service manuals make reference to a witness Mark stamped on the flywheel when the entire assembly was originally put together and balanced during the engine build phase on the assembly line. But none of the flywheels I have on hand show any evidence of that, so standard practice is...any time the clutch assembly must be removed from the flywheel, it should go back on in the same position in order to maintain an semblance of "balance" that it has.

Once ya get the rig running, let us know how ya think the clutch action and flywheel work turned out as far as any change in vibration (better or worse?). Feedback like this is very important for validating whether our "tech" is correct or not!

 

[Tiny Yokum]

on the subject of throwout bearing collars, mine appears worn down substantually (.075") after 400,000+ hard miles.
Although it was working ok in a 1975 sii xlc, replacement is in order.
It measures 3.168" not including the bearing. 3.250" from the bearing surface to the opposite end.​

those dimemsions are probably wrong.