slightly confused

N

NSWCPO72

Member
What I have
1972 sii
345
tf 727
edelbrock 1406
the issue
when purchased I did not know the condition of the fluids so little by little I have been replacing / repairing as I go along. When the coolant system was up to snuff I took it for a short drive not on the highway just slow around the ranch.
When I did take her out for a short jaunt down the highway, she did fine but I wasn't at high speeds either. I had noticed that when shifting from p to r it engauged fine & also into n seemed fine but when I shift down to d it felt like I was still in n only when I shifted down to 2 did I feel it drop in / engage. At some point playing around I did find d. So I decided to
changed the tranny filter / gasket / fluid.
Fluid didn't look or smell as if it were burnt. The pan had some shiny stuff wear/tear? But it wasn't full or all over. The filter did have some slivers of metal embedded in it.
After replacing I start to add fluid.
Now the info on the dipstick says to check when hot & in n. I added fluids before starting & then set about to adding more when it was hot & in n. I did this as it started to show on the stick. I then had a call that I had to take & decided to shut down the engine. The call lasted an hour. I went back to check & add. Once the engine was running & while waiting to warm up I shifted through the gears. It shifted smooth/easy & went into d every time no issues finding it. Back in n a check on the stick showed that I needed to add more so I did. Once it indicated that it was at the proper level for running, hot, & in n I stopped. I put her in park let it run some then shifted through the gears...hmmm same thing was now happening
r ez to engage
n ez to engage
d nothing like I am still in n.
2 ez to engage
3 ez to engage.
So I am like now wtfo? Play around try to find d but no joy. Looking at the shift indicator it looks like when I am in r I am. Same with n. But to get her to move forward I have to shift down to 2 which doesn't look like 2 but just ahead of the indicator Mark.
So am I insane or am I just plain screwed up or the tranny is afued? Do I need mental help or what?
So here I am the fng who just wants to start driving his Scout but thinking everytime I do I will jack something else up permanently. I luv this ole gal & want to enjoy the road & trails with her & the family. I am guessing there is a fix short of tranny replacement or maybe not which is why I am here posting.
Thanks for the advice / guiedance. It is much needed.
So fire away guys.
Thanks
r/
t
 
You're sure it's a 727 and not a borg warner 11? It's entirely possible, but '73 was supposedly the transition year for at's in the sii. The 727 is a one piece bell housing/tranny cast piece while the bw 11 is a two piece unit. The next thing is, did you use atf + trans fluid? The dipstick May call for dexron fluid which is incorrect for a 727 as it is a chrysler tranny and should therefore be fed with atf + fluid. While you had the pan off, did you adjust the low/reverse band? The procedure for doing so is outlined in a thread inside this trans tech forum. It's quite likely that this band is loose and in need of adjustment. The pan has to be off in order to access it though.
 
Several things going on here...

First...the shift cable needs to be adjusted. And if you can't "synch" the shift indicator with the correct shift lever position/detent on the shifter arm on the transmission, then replace the shifter cable and it's "u" anchor. This is a very common issue regarding the sii shift control system, a fresh cable works wonders for these vehicles.

The transmission can't operate correctly if the shift valve in the valve body is not indexed in it's proper position because the shifter control system won't allow it to "detent".

Your choice of oil has nothing to do with what you are experiencing. The various formulations of atf were created back when to address materials compatibility vs. Enhancement of "friction improvement", vs. Lubrication qualities, vs. Heat transfer qualities, etc. Use of an "incorrect" atf formulation will not kill a trans though it May reduce it's service life considerably.

The most glaring performance issue that is created by using the incorrect atf product for a given at is a change in the "feel" of shifting performance. That is because the atf affects the "bite" of the various friction materials used in the bands and clutch packs. After servicing an at that has suffered prolonged neglect (typical ihc vehicle), it "feels" different but soon becomes erratic in operation. That is a direct result of "new" atf enhancing the friction bite of clutches and bands that are worn to their limits or that need adjustment. And at best, servicing the trans is a bandaid if the bands are not attended to. That is why the two procedures are always performed at the same time! Replace the atf and filter system...and adjust the bands!

Any off-the-shelf "dexron"-rated atf is correct for any torqueflite 727 trans, no matter what it's oem application. I will never service any 727 (or ihc code t-407) with any "synthetic" atf...any oem unit that has never been rebuilt did not have materials used internally that are compatible with the various formulations of synthetics. A properly built transmission using "selected" aftermarket friction components, seals, soft goods, etc. Can use the synthetics if desired. High quality atf products such as offered in the swepco line have been available for years and can certainly add an additional level of overall performance/protection in a freshly-built at, but nothing inna can can correct at issues that are due to a lack of friction material on the clutches and bands, or servos that are bypassing because the seal rings are worn beyond limits.

Folks make a big deal out of "at transmission oil level"...but in actuality there is a great deal of wiggleroom regarding fluid levels inna 727. A stock transmission, with fluid barely showing on the stick when hot will shift and perform just fine. At approximately 1qt. "low", trans engagement at will become erratic especially of the unit has not been serviced for an extended period, that is because the filter is partially restricted and the pump can't pick up enough atf to operate the trans in an "instantaneous" manner. If the oil level is excessively "high", then overheated atf will be blown out of the vent located on the pump housing and leak through the bottom of the bellhousing until the fluid level drops, but that does not cause any kind of internal transmission damage.

Replace/adjust the shift cable...adjust the bands...if that does not correct your issue, then initiate a transmission rebuild. These items are not a "forever" kinda mechanism, most especially when neglected for years at a time.
 
Alright then looks like I have another busy few days. I will look for the band adjustment threads...& get my service manual out. As far as making adjustments to the shifter cable is that straight forward or is there more to the proper proceedures?
Thanks
r/
Todd
 
nswcpo72 said:
alright then looks like I have another busy few days. I will look for the band adjustment threads...& get my service manual out. As far as making adjustments to the shifter cable is that straight forward or is there more to the proper proceedures?
Thanks
r/
Todd
Click to expand...

If the shifter cable is "worn", it will not be able to be adjusted correctly! You will waste much time and only be frustrated by the lack of ability to make it work properly.

You are gonna be spending much quality time laying on your back adjusting the bands...you are right there with the shift cable. Follow the process in the service manual for the cable adjustment.

Once the bands are adjusted and the trans is buttoned up, then verify correct throttle cable adjustment. Only after doing that, verify the "throttle pressure control adjustment (kickdown). That adjustment sequence is outlined in post #23 in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/transmission-tech/588-torqueflite-727-guapo.html

All of these service operations go hand in hand to restore the transmission operation to an oem level. If problems still exist, then it's time for a bench overhaul.
 
I think I will order a new shifter cable instead of using what I know to be an old oem cable that is still installed.
Not sayng that buying new will solve the problem...it still has to be installed correctly.
Yes I did read the thread and after awhile it was all sounding like russian but then again it was late at night and I had a few cold ones as well. I will go back and re-read and digest the thread as best I can and ask questions when they come up.
I really want to say thanks for the assistance here with this issue. I have never benched a tranny or seen one rebuilt either so it is all new to me.
Thanks
r/
Todd
 
Replacing the shift cable onna Scout II is one of the best maintenance items ya can do!!! Adjusting an old, rotten cable simply does not work as the articulation between the "gate" positions in the floor shift mechanism vs. The lever travel at the valve body is very tedious.

Because there is "wear" in the shift mechanism mounted on the floor, and the fact there is a 180* bend in the shift cable conduit (ridiculous design issue!!!), the cable has to be overly long, and doing a 180 in a very tight radius bend with a cable system like that one is a major no-no design-wise!!! The shift lever mounted to the valve body on the Scout II version is a "special" one also that only works with the Scout II floor shift cable assembly and worked "ok" when new. The lever length "ratio" really does not match the shifter mechanism detents and a slight amount of play and wear creates real problems.

These same kind of issue occur with the fullsize rigs also...since they used a saginaw steering column (column-mount transmission control) originally designed to be used with either a powerglide or a turbowhatever hydramatic division slushbox. But the shift lever on the valve body was a chrysler-supply component and the "lever ratio" was never fully engineered between the two parts. The slightest amount of wear in the column shift mechanism results in a "no start" unless ya hold the shift lever against the "park" stop while twisting the key! The '74/'75 pickalls were the worst for that condition since they used the locking steering column from saginaw.

I'd also replace the "u" strap clamp that anchors the cable tag end, that strap must fit the indentation on the cable conduit very tightly in order to anchor the conduit, any play in that area is greatly accentuated when ya try and adjust the cable.

Don't expect a cable replacement to cure your tranny woes...but it is part of the overall scheme and will have to be done at some point anyway!

We fully realize that most folks aren't familiar with oldskool auto trannys at all, most especially the tf 727 which was "adapted" for use in ihc applications. That's why we're making special efforts here to try and get all the "tech" stuff we can posted that is within the grasp of most enthusiasts with a reasonable collection of tools and a decent place to park the rig and get it up in the air! You are dealing with what I think is the most durable passenger vehicle automatic transmission ever developed, all it asks is some occasional luv!
 
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Thanks
I will give it all the luv it wants / needs. I understand as you stated that it will not solve all the woes but I understand that it should be replaced regardless. Yes it is a tight fit 180 bend and all!
Anything else you can think of besides the u clamp?
Point taken on the need for proper fitting.

Thanks
t
 
nswcpo72 said:
thanks
I will give it all the luv it wants / needs. I understand as you stated that it will not solve all the woes but I understand that it should be replaced regardless. Yes it is a tight fit 180 bend and all!
Anything else you can think of besides the u clamp?
Point taken on the need for proper fitting.

Thanks
t
Click to expand...

Depending upon how deep ya wanna go...since you will have the pan down to adjust the band inside, ya might consider replacing the shifter tower seal and the throttle pressure control seal while you have the cable replacement going on. It's all real tight to get in there, but if you pull the trans tunnel inside, then access is much improved...and ya can clean and lubricate the shifter assembly also. Then that leads to interior painting...rust repair...new floor and body mounts...rocker rust repair, upgrade the interior, new sound system,...paint job, etc.

Ya better be in this deal for the long haul...it will take some idle hours away from ya...but it's a project....not life!!!

Once ya get the tranny area stripped out and prepped, than inventory all the areas that need attention and we'll throw out some hints and ideas on the most effective way to deal with this stuff.

The shifter cable replacement will change your life though!
 
michael mayben said:
...any off-the-shelf "dexron"-rated atf is correct for any torqueflite 727 trans, no matter what it's oem application. I will never service any 727 (or ihc code t-407) with any "synthetic" atf...any oem unit that has never been rebuilt did not have materials used internally that are compatible with the various formulations of synthetics. A properly built transmission using "selected" aftermarket friction components, seals, soft goods, etc. Can use the synthetics if desired. High quality atf products such as offered in the swepco line have been available for years and can certainly add an additional level of overall performance/protection in a freshly-built at, but nothing inna can can correct at issues that are due to a lack of friction material on the clutches and bands, or servos that are bypassing because the seal rings are worn beyond limits.
Click to expand...

Mike, there sure is a lot of juju about selecting the proper fluid for our IH ap 727's. When reading the labels on dexron atf on the shelves today, there is no mention of it being suitable for a chrysler product. GM yes. Ford yes. Certain imports yes. Then if you grab a bottle of more expensive atf+4 off the shelf, it has chrysler all over it and little else. Judging by what you wrote, the fwb's did a bad thing by putting atf+4 in blue thunder's recently serviced tranny. Sounds like john wasted $60 bucks on that deal on my insistence. Now we get to drain it again and put the dexron in that he originally bought, but I told him was wrong. Boy do I feel like dumbshit. Why does this have to be so damn confusing? While I'm wallowing in self pity and self loathing, I'll take this time to apologize to the original poster for passing bad info. I didn't mean to. I was only trying to help.
 
Y'all can color me "majorly confused"
I'm with you trevor, on this trans fluid juju. I pretty much know that dexron is dexron, and that subsequent versions are supposed to backward compatible, though +3 is not suitable for llle, ll, or plain dexron. But then again when we had the voyagers(I know I know but they held up well to driver's ed and momma's taxi), I looked for chrysler specs. Then somehow a quart showed up in the shop that listed +3 and mercon.:icon_eh: the toyotas take any old Dexron, but hondas gotta be honda specific or you can get an additive to make it honda, and on it goes.
I'm sure somewhere under the label they gotta have a common ancestor.
 
As the original poster.... I understand that there are going to be times where, if ya ask 40 people you May get 20 different & 20 same answers in the end it is up to me to do additional research & make a call based on the advice & findings.
So no worries. I some times get bad intel but still the call lays on my shoulders.
The amount of information on the net is at times endless yet one has to sift through it. It is places like this forum that provide a shortcut & get information from sources that have btdt. Subject matter experts willing to give out info for the better of the group or individual asking are a huge help yet one still has to do the duediligence. I sometimes look at it like the debate of which is better the 45acp vs. 9mm.....& sometimes it just boils down to whatever works for you or which ever you prefer. Since I know zip about the tf 727 tranny or the 345 under my hood, I come seeking knowledge form those who are the sme or the skilled experts. If I do a proceedure wrong ie like I should've done the adjustments on the bands while I was down there working on changing the tranny fluid... I don't place blame on anyone. If I had done the adjustments wrong based on information I received on the forum / online / manual, again since I am not a expert I can't place blame other tham myself. Oh I May go wtfo? But the other side of the coin is if I took it in for service, paid $ & it was not performing well different ending to that story...I wouldn't go into surgery knowing that some intern was gonna cut me open.
I am having the time of my retired life learning & working on my Scout I enjoy working on her. I would enjoy her even more if I could drive her daily but we're not there yet but we'll get there. I enjoy reading & tryoing to soak up the info like a sponge. I wish at times I had choosen a more mechanical line of occupation as there isn't much call for a guy who drove fast boats at the drive it like you stole speeds or shoot/loot & blow things up skills those days are behind me now so this Scout is the new project...
Ok sorry for the soapbox rant.
I will be on my back no pun intended learning how to adjust the bands right & I am sure I will get completely frustrated & pissed a few times but the end results will hopefully be rewarding & cheaper. Nothing can take the place of being physically there & shown how it is done but if the next best thing is getting in here & asking ?s and receiving advice & guiedance from you all then I'll take it.
Keep em coming.
R/
t
 
Fwb trev et al...slippery shit on the shelf today in any emporium is only marketed for today's throwaway vehicles that are exactly why obamanation is now taking over the motorized nannystate transport device biz in the u.s. Of a.

None of the canners (other than folks like swepco) give a shit about ten year old rigs other than to "market" relabeled bullshit ofr "older vehicles". Swepco ain't a "canner"...they put cash into bringin' dinojuice up from them black holes and puttin' it in cans for real vehicles that see real use. The pate family was kinda unique in that regard back in the day, and the current swepco dudes still do bizz the old way.

Only folks like us and others that play with old iron are "buyers" of this shit...and in the big picture...we don't count in the eyes of the bigoil canners. There ain't a fuckin' soul sittin' in suitville for pennexxtexchavez oil hq that was even born when the first tf tranny came down the line! And now obamanation is gonna make it even worse for us so start hoardin' dexron-rated shit along with any caliber pistol cartridge!!!!

Atf+whatever is for these so-called "modern" slushboxes with all them electrongizmos and fuckin' lockup torque converters that take a shit onna regular basis in 12 month cycles. Totally useless shit on real trucks.

Dexron-juice is for oldskool non-electron trannys. Ford type f is real popular with summa them dragrace dudes as they think it gives more bite to the friction materials, in our use, ain't no way you could tell the difference.

While mixxin' different type atf won't hurt nuthin', it won't make for as desirable a "package" as puttin' the right shit in there for the exact tranny model. So don't sweat havin' that highdollar wallyworld tranny fluid in johnboy's rig. It don't give a shit, neither do I.

That's why we keep puttin' the emphasis on shit around here regarding specific recommendations for old shit (even if it's updated). Fuck honda, fuck toyota, fuck kihyundai, fuck diamlerchryfiatobama corp., fuck all this modern stuff that is throwaway...if yore gonna play with "old" ya better lern how ta think about old! Them oil can "labels" don't mean squat for us...old is still best!

Next fuckin' thang is that okra windsock will start a "oil of the month" club and really fuck up the world...and we'll see "otf" start showin' up on egay and cnn with shamwow wipeazz rags.

And regardin' the .45acp vs. Them wimpazz 9mm loads...who give a shit as long as tha bad guys end up not sukkin' my air???? A hit is a hit if it does tha job!!

And trev...keep whuppin' on yore own azz...ya ain't old enuff yet to git a real azzwhoopin' jes' 'cause ya elected "college" over "real world"! So now ya gottalotta old stuff to lern before it's all outlawed by them fuckers that someone voted for. Hang here at binder u. You will age rapidly!!!
 
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nswcpo72 said:
mr. Mayben
is this the part in which you are referring to?

Part #: sii-trans-cblhld-clmp
Click to expand...

Yep! That's tha secret ingredient ta makin' them cables feel like new! And...if yore's is held on with them dumazz IH roundhead stovebolts, toss that stuff away and put a real nut and bolt in the clamp holes!
 
I just found some pictures of when I took the pan off and some of the contents in the pan I was tryig to find some of the filter that I took...
The big chunk of black thing was from when I grabbed a rag off the table that was used on another "cleaning detail" but that was some slippery stuff with gloves on..... So some of the grime got into the pan.
But as for the little shinny stuff that along with some metal slivers (which were embedded in the filter)
is this some what normal? As I can not see that having anything that shines in a pan could be a normal thing but then again wear and tear will add to this.
So do I just tow it to a tranny shop or continue with making the band adjustments and the shifter cable adjustments as you suggested?
Thanks
r/
t
 

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Thanks papa mayben fer settin' the record straight as only you can do. I gotta be more careful about dispensing help when I'm not completely sure. Most of the time I'm on the raht track, but this time I dun got cotched with my zipper undid. Binder u is the the only u worth attending any more. All them others iz jes a thinly veiled training ground fer obama's yooth. The only comrades I need got rotten binders parked in their driveways.
 
nswcpo72 said:
I just found some pictures of when I took the pan off and some of the contents in the pan I was tryig to find some of the filter that I took...
The big chunk of black thing was from when I grabbed a rag off the table that was used on another "cleaning detail" but that was some slippery stuff with gloves on..... So some of the grime got into the pan.
But as for the little shinny stuff that along with some metal slivers (which were embedded in the filter)
is this some what normal? As I can not see that having anything that shines in a pan could be a normal thing but then again wear and tear will add to this.
So do I just tow it to a tranny shop or continue with making the band adjustments and the shifter cable adjustments as you suggested?
Thanks
r/
t
Click to expand...

The pics of your tranny pan contents look very normal to me!!!

That big black worm looks like rtv schnizz which some azzhats put the pan on with. That shit is worthless for anything except "maybe" bathtub and toilet caulk. Ya wanna really fook up a slushbox? Put it together with rtv!!! Shit oughtta be outlawed, obamanation would do that if they had a clue about real world shit. Two years ago I built a 727 that had failed three times in a year. Reason? The sob that built it!!! He used broken seal rings on the servos, worn out seal rings on other parts, and put it together with rtv...no gaskets anywhere!!!! And that shithaid is supposed to be a "knowledgeable 727 builder".

The rest of what you are looking at is what I refer to as "sluff". In texican we call that shit "guapo". The term guapo covers purdee much anythin' ya don't have a spectroanalysis on! What it is... Organic friction material particulate from the clutch friction discs and bands. Looks kinda like beach sand huh? And it's mixed with particle of brass and other metallic elements when bonded to the components during the manufacturing process. Over time, the stuff wears away. The clutch packs "self-adjust" to an extent, but the bands have to be manually adjusted. So what you will be doing is compensating for band and drum wear...again, a perfectly normal thing.

The larger silver "flakes" are aluminum sluff from the planetary carriers and a few other spots inside the tranny. And again, perfectly normal wear type debris. This is why we pull periodic maintenance on any slushbox! The fluid residue I see is clean looking, if it doesn't smell "burnt", then that means the trans has not been slipping to an extent that it has overheated anything...yet!

On some Scout II versions of the 727, there is another small plastic mesh cannister filter (pressure regulator filter) snapped into a port inside the valve body. In order to service that filter, the valve body has to be split apart...not a job for a novice under any circumstances!

So...set the bands and buckle it back up and see what happens. Ya don't need the shift cable installed to the lever in order to try the trans out with the rig up on stands, just shift it with your hand on the lever and yore dawg drivin' in the seat and workin' the brakes. Ya might even surprise yoreself!
 
scoutboy74 said:
thanks papa mayben fer settin' the record straight as only you can do. I gotta be more careful about dispensing help when I'm not completely sure. Most of the time I'm on the raht track, but this time I dun got cotched with my zipper undid. Binder u is the the only u worth attending any more. All them others iz jes a thinly veiled training ground fer obama's yooth. The only comrades I need got rotten binders parked in their driveways.
Click to expand...

I'd say it's time for the fwb krew to call in sick and come up here for slushbox tranny fuckin'up 101. We can do that in a Friday/satidy session if ya keep yore lip zipped! We got the b&b suite done up all comfylike now and plenty of sleepin' arrangements without needin' tha floor anymore! Yawl kin help with assemblin' the bunker outta them down cottonwoods for use when the revolution ratchets up and them obamanation brown shirts come callin'!
 
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