Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Ok I have anouther 727 question. A while back in this post I was having shifting problems, I have tried to adjust the band with no luck, and so I am guessing it must be the valve body. Yesterday I got some time and the rain stopped so I crawled under the truck to try and fix it finaly. I dilled a hole in my pan to put in a drain plug, (I have done the whole pull the pan and drowned in tranny fluid enough times) then I took out the old filter and saw some dark residue in the bottom of the pan, not a lot but enough I was curious. So I downloaded some instructions for pulling the valve body and proceeded to pull the valve body. It came out with out a hitch and I saw no problems on the outside of the valve body. I know most the problems would be inside but I dont know much about the inside of a valve body. Anyway it seemed like all looked well but when now that I have put it back in the transmission does not shift into any gears, I can feel it shifting into the gates but not engaging the gears. It is also very tight going into park. Does anyone have any ideas what I did?
 
Any debris/residue in a "mound" in the pan under the filter is perfectly normal, that is where the stuff precipitates out.

And there is no way to determine if a valve body has any issues without complete disassembly. The closest you can come to that is run a full battery of pressure tests on the tranny. With the valve body "down", you can run a set of tests however using compressed air directly on the case ports. That only tells ya that "actuation" is occurring, it will not tell ya that friction material on bands/clutches is gone, the governor is not working properly, etc.

When you put the valve body back into position, ya sure ya didn't disengage the manual shift valve from the tang that is attached to the rooster comb and moves the shift valve?? That's all I can tell ya without pics.

If it doesn't engage park easily, ya sure the rod that operates the parking pawl in the tail housing is properly attached to the shift rooster comb also? If all this came about after re-mounting the valve body, then that should tell ya ya did something wrong!

Heres a pic of proper rooster comb assembly in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/transmission-tech/1751-727-throttle-pressure-shaft.html
 
Thanks for the imput, and the pictures, I think I figured out the instalation problem. I think I put the tab on the rooster tail ontop of the pressure valve rather than between the gooves on the pressure valve. This would keep the rooster tail from fully depressing into park from what I see. I also spoke with a transmission guy from monroe tansmission in newcastle CA and he tells me that my earlier problems are probebly a stuck governor. Does any one have any pictures of the governor or can describe how I can tell if it is stuck and how to unstick it?
 
To service a governor, the transfer case and tailhousing must be removed.

The governor is then dissembled and removed. It must be treated when being serviced with surgical cleanliness!

If it's "stuck" that is because microscopic debris is circulating in the hydraulic circuits, same thing that sticks the other spools in the valve body.

When the governor is removed, there will be two "piston rings" on the support, those need to be replaced also. Along with the gasket between the tailhousing and the case, and the gasket between the tailhousing and the transfer case. And while the tailhousing is off, replace the two seals behind the bull gear.

When replacing the governor, all components must be lubricated with a lube designed for that application, that does not mean ya use atf to lubricate the components.

If the output shaft bearing behind the bull gear needs to be replaced, there is only one source for the correct bearing...that is here at ihon.

Here is a pic of the governor which also contains the parking stop.

I'd highly advise you find a copy of the munroe torqueflite bible before attempting a governor service.
 

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I pulled the pan again on Monday and sure enough the pressure valve was not correctly positioned, once I adjusted that then everything went back to normal, I have all the gears that I should and the rig is runnning good.
 
Good deal jon! Ya stuck with it, found the problem and now yore a happeecamper! I'm so glad ya didn't rip into the gvvernor...we'd never heard the end of that!
 
So I should have knocked on wood because the non shifting gremlin in my torqueflite is back. I guess we spoke too soon. It was working great up untill this morning and it would not jump out of first gear. It would at times jump up to second and but never third. Once again it will not manualy select the gears and my tack is jumping all over the place. It will bounce rapidly between 1000 and 2000 rpms and start running rough, but when I put my foot on the go peddle it will even out. I dont know what is going on I am going out to by a munroe book but I am open to ideas on what is wrong.
 
bill usn-1 said:
ok Mike.
It was a good refresher reading up on the 727 converters again.
I don't know why I forget my own library sometimes.
I'm sure you came to the same conclusion, that according to the chart the 6cyl and 318 converters all use 0 balance weights.
Now if the IH converters on my shelf are representative of all of them, then the IH converter also uses no balance weight.

I would conclude that if it physically fits with the ring gear still on it that the 6cyl and 318 converters would work for an IH 727.
Obviously this would not be ideal but if you are in a pinch to get your daily driver up and running by Monday morning and all they have is 318 converters on the shelf.......

The other side of this is a choice of stall speeds!:smilewinkgrin:
Click to expand...

Bill your application chart covers chrysler's, do you have one for amc? The old hornets and such ran 727 without the ring gear welded to the tq and neutral balanced. Just wondering if those would cross over too.
 
Any reputable torque converter "builder" can do any version of a tf 727 converter you would ever want. IH-spec converters are certainly not difficult to obtain as a rebuilt item through the major transmission parts warehouse distributors and remanners in any good size metro area.
 
michael mayben said:
any reputable torque converter "builder" can do any version of a tf 727 converter you would ever want. IH-spec converters are certainly not difficult to obtain as a rebuilt item through the major transmission parts warehouse distributors and remanners in any good size metro area.
Click to expand...

Thanks michael. I did called two, one offered to rebuild my core, the other said they did not offer anything for IH.
These were two very reputable company's. There seems to be a lot of variations in the 727, between all the applications. Ati told me there was even a 727 with a GM bolt pattern that was put in some mail jeeps.
Ati wanted to know the height of the converter as he was going to see if it was the same on the amc version they offer.
All converters they build are neutral balanced no weights. I looked online at several companies and they only list the chrysler and amc version. I will call a local shop and see what they offer.
 
Ok I am back, and so are my shifting problems in my torqueflite. If you read earlier on in this post you will see my torqueflite is not shifting into 3rd gear. I cleaned the valve body and it seemed to work ok after that for about 2 days then it was back to not shifting. Well since then I have checked the kick down linkage and that seems to be adjusted correctly from what I have been told. I even disconnected it and it will not shift up into third disconnected. I have tried sea foam trans tune fluid to clean my valve body and that is not making any difference. Originaly I was told it could be the governor but then I was told the only function of the governor was to keep the trany from shifting into 1st at higher rpms. No I just got off the phone with a transmission shop and they are saying it could be the clutches between 2nd and 3rd. I am not sure about this because I just had the thing rebuilt 3000 miles ago. Is this a possiblity? They want to rebuild the transmission for $800, that is with me pulling it out of the rig. As I said before I dont know a ton about transmissions but it seems kind of odd that this transmission would go out in 3000 miles when it was rebuilt by a reputable dealer. Any ideas on what I should do?
 
Whoever gave you the "governor" advice is just plain out to lunch.

The governor functions under all transmission operating conditions.

If there was no major pile of trash in the pan when you pulled it, then the only way any clutch can have an issue is...it was not assembled correctly.

You must have some sort of service reference in order to pull diagnostics on this transmission, there is simply no other way short of paying a pro to fix it again. If it's a 3000 mile unit is there a warranty?? Only way these slushboxes fail in short time is if it was not built correctly, there are 727 trannys out there that have been working perfectly for 40 years!

The valve body must come off and be torn down in order to verify if there are any problems inside. Same for the governor, we've been bs'n this to death. Putting any kind of majik juice shit in that trans (or any trans) will not do jack shit!!! No way "stuff" inside a valve body can be purged! You are talking one tiny particle possibly hanging a valve in it's bore.

Once the valve body is off, then perform the clutch pack test and servo tests using compressed air with a regulator as outlined in the service references.

I've been going through this same scenario with another ihon member for the last three weeks...pro-built tranny, set for quite awhile before installation, shop closed down and disappeared. Tranny wouldn't shift properly once installed, then got worse. Should be a warranty issue but who ya gonna call?? This unit had the best of all the hd parts based upon a list I gave our member two years ago, he found the parts and handed 'em to the builder and told him to "do it".

What was wrong? The dude that built it did a half ass job of installing a tf-2 kit, left some steps out, and didn't install the right parts on top of everything else. Also installed the low/reverse band strut sideways so no way the band could lock in and it could not be properly adjusted. Mike did an outstanding job of diagnosing this over the phone with me (and transgo tech service) and now, for the first time, it works like it was meant to work.
 
Ok so I am starting the process of servicing my governor, I have a service manual for a torqueflite transmission. It is an older chiltons mechanics manual, you know the thick ones with every car made for a couple years. Anyway it has some good breakdowns of the transmission and tells how to remove and service the governor. I have the transfer case off and for the life of me cannot get the nut that holds on the drive gears off the end of the transmission shaft. I am sure I can figure a way to get it off but I do not want to break anything. Also if there is anything as far as advice on doing this I am open for it.
 
Put the shifter in "park", that locks the output shaft from turning.

Then use the appropriate socket (I use a 3/4" drive socket/ratchet/breaker bar for that nut). Then reef on it. That nut must be tight or else it will come loose and wreak havoc with the transfer case. Nearly every bull gear nut I remove from an sii trans is "loose".

There is gonna be a spacer behind the bullgear that is retained by the double seals. Pull the spacer out and set aside with the gear and nut.

Plan to replace those double seals while the tailhousing is off or they will leak when ya go back together. And that output shaft bearing must also be carefully checked for condition, those are a "special" and only used in the sii output shaft location on the 4x4.

Once the tailhousing is off, you will be looking at the governor assembly. Do not remove those four bolts that have the sheetmetal locking tabs, no need to do that. You disassemble the governor and leave the housing in place...remember, you must do this under super-clean conditions.
 
Ok, I guess I have been putting off posting up about my tranny for long enough. Here's the issue. I have a 1973 Scout II, 345 and 727 (obviously for this thread), d44s front and rear. When I bought it the previous owner had broken an "ear" off of the tranny extension and the t-case (d20). So I swapped out the tailhousing and put on another d20. The problem is that for as long as I have had it the tranny will not engage park. Park is the same as neutral, nothing locks up. All the other gears work fine and it drives and shifts fine, but no park. Any ideas?
 
Most common diagnostic for this condition is to remove the shift cable from the shifter lever on the trans (this pertains to sii shifter system only, not a pickall!). Then use your hand to place the shift lever in each detent position and verify what happens. Regarding the "park" position vs. "neutral" position as far as the nuetral safety system (nss) is concerned. Will the nss system work properly when this is done?

If it passes that test, then the nss and "rooster comb" mounted internally on the valve body is ok. Then test the "reverse" position and verify if the backup lights operate properly.

Then put it in "park" position with your hand and see if that engages the parking pawl to the parking lock cog on the perimeter of the governor body. You can't visual that, but if it then goes into "park" and holds, your problem is shifter cable adjustment, or a combo of worn shifter cable and shifter mechanism.

If the "park" position still won't lock down on the output shaft after doing the manual movement test of the shifter lever, then most likely the parking rod is not connected to the rooster comb on the valve body...or when ya replaced the tailhousing, ya didn't get the "ball end" of the park rod pushed into the spring-loaded actuator socket in the replacement tailhousing. Or...the parking pawl/sporing in the replacement housing is broken and fallen into the case, or the spring is broken/missing and can't retain tension on the "socket" the ball end engages in.

This is a very common deal when re-assembling these trannys...simply not engaging the park lock rod properly in the tailhousing. No special tool is needed, other than a sharp rap with your hand to make the ball end seat, or a sharp "jerk" to pull it out of it's seat during teardown!

I don't have a good picture of this parking rod detail...but I'm sure ya know what I mean since you have had it apart!

By the way...this is very similar to an issue that Darren at ihon has regarding his tranny on his sii right now! I think his current workaround is a set of four wheel chocks tied onna rope when in "park"!
 
Ok, thanks for all the advise on my transmission problem, I think I finaly have found the problem, it was the governor. I pulled my governor apart and found that the valve was jammed shut. In the grooves I found a small piece of metal. I believe that it was a left over from when I originaly toasted my transmission. I guess this means the people that rebuilt my transmission did not clean it as they should have, or I have some other problem and major failure is on the way.
 
michael mayben said:
most common diagnostic for this condition is to remove the shift cable from the shifter lever on the trans (this pertains to sii shifter system only, not a pickall!). Then use your hand to place the shift lever in each detent position and verify what happens. Regarding the "park" position vs. "neutral" position as far as the nuetral safety system (nss) is concerned. Will the nss system work properly when this is done?

Then put it in "park" position with your hand and see if that engages the parking pawl to the parking lock cog on the perimeter of the governor body.

If the "park" position still won't lock down on the output shaft after doing the manual movement test of the shifter lever, then most likely the parking rod is not connected to the rooster comb on the valve body...or when ya replaced the tailhousing, ya didn't get the "ball end" of the park rod pushed into the spring-loaded actuator socket in the replacement tailhousing. Or...the parking pawl/sporing in the replacement housing is broken and fallen into the case, or the spring is broken/missing and can't retain tension on the "socket" the ball end engages in.
Click to expand...
Well, I had thought of the shifter cable and tried what you described about a year ago, (I have been driving it this way for about 2 years now), and the shifter cable is definitely not the problem. I am able to shift everything by hand but park still = neutral. :mad2: the nss is either non-existent or was removed by a previous owner because I am able to fire it up in any gear. The reverse lights do come on when the transmission is in reverse.
Soo what you're saying is that I just need to remove the tailhousing and make sure the that the "ball" is engaging the socket in the tailhousing. That is probably the problem since I remember it being a pain trying to get the tailhousing on. If it is engaging the socket then you are saying the problem is probably the parking rod is not connected to the rooster comb on the valve body. I guess I will get into it tomorrow. I just hate dropping the t-case. What a pain. Thanks for the advise, if you have any other thoughts what I should be looking for let me know. Any and all help is appreciated.
 
jonsalter74 said:
ok, thanks for all the advise on my transmission problem, I think I finaly have found the problem, it was the governor. I pulled my governor apart and found that the valve was jammed shut. In the grooves I found a small piece of metal. I believe that it was a left over from when I originaly toasted my transmission. I guess this means the people that rebuilt my transmission did not clean it as they should have, or I have some other problem and major failure is on the way.
Click to expand...

No shit???? Finally???

Congrats dude! Yore now a tranny teardowner! Let's see if ya can slam it back together and it still works!!!

Tip of the day...sterilize that governor and all it's pieces! Now ya know why I spit that shit out here all the time! All it takes to stick a governor weight is a pubic hair fromma south texas barking frog with crabs to mess one up!

Douche all the parts with contact cleaner and blow dry. Then re-assemble using something like "super-lube" (do not use wd40 or anything like it). "break-free" spray lube used on stainless steel auto-pistols is the hot ticket for that if ya have a source locally...amazing stuff for a great lube for critical applications:

break-free

Commercial shops use a proprietary spray lube for the governor assembly, but ya won't find that inna auto parts house.
 
235frog said:
well, I had thought of the shifter cable and tried what you described about a year ago, (I have been driving it this way for about 2 years now), and the shifter cable is definitely not the problem. I am able to shift everything by hand but park still = neutral. :mad2: the nss is either non-existent or was removed by a previous owner because I am able to fire it up in any gear. The reverse lights do come on when the transmission is in reverse.
Soo what you're saying is that I just need to remove the tailhousing and make sure the that the "ball" is engaging the socket in the tailhousing. That is probably the problem since I remember it being a pain trying to get the tailhousing on. If it is engaging the socket then you are saying the problem is probably the parking rod is not connected to the rooster comb on the valve body. I guess I will get into it tomorrow. I just hate dropping the t-case. What a pain. Thanks for the advise, if you have any other thoughts what I should be looking for let me know. Any and all help is appreciated.
Click to expand...

Do not pull the transfer case or tailhousing, no need to do that unless the parking pawl, parking pawl spring, or the outer body on the governor is scruud!!!!

But...ya do need to pull the pan and dump the stomach contents. And do the band adjustment while you are in there just for shits and giggles.

Then you can feel the parking rod and determine if it's properly engaged with the parking pawl socket back in that deep, dark hellhole known as the tailhousing!

Follow that rod forward to the connector that drops into the roostercomb. Carefully remove that "e" clip from the connector and set aside. Then ya can push up on the rod end and then manipulate it by hand and "feel" for the parking pawl engagement. Ya need to remove the filter to make access room...but try to do this without removing the valve body as that just adds more tedious work. Ya gotta have alotta patience when doing this surgery and go slow and rig up plenty of lighting!

In all my years doing this, I've found one parking pawl spring broken, and caused this same issue. Now to fix that, the tailhousing will have to come off. I've never found a broken parking pawl, but it can certainly happen like when folks cram the tranny into park while the rig is still rolling.

I bet that the rod is just not engaged properly, and hasn't been since ya replaced the busted tc and adapter! Here's a pic of the "ball end" of the rod that engages the parking pawl which is mounted inside the tailhousing. That is the governor assembly mounted to the output shaft, the parking cog is the toothed item on the peripheral of the governor.

Nothing like layin' on yore back in a slimepile of atf while it runs down yore forehead and into yore eyes while ya do surgery up inside by feel. Kinda like a sawbones doing a bypass surgery over the I-net!
 

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Well, after having covered myself in tranny fluid here is what I have done and found so far. I drained the pan and forgot how much fluid comes out with the deep pan I put on. I did end up taking off the t-case and tailhousing, wasn't as bad as I remember it being. The rod isn't broken, the spring seems fine and I put it back together and felt the rod pop in the socket like it is supposed to. I next did what you recommended and took off the filter and the e-clip to manipulate the rod by hand. I couldn't really get my hand up in there, so I took apart and took off the valve body. For which I am still kicking my own a$$ because now I have to find where all the stupid balls are supposed to go. :mad2: oh well, I guess it will be a great learning experience. After this whole fiasco I tried to manipulate the rod by hand to get it to engage like it supposed to. No luck. I can't get the rod to engage to lock up the tranny no matter how hard I try and pull/push it (within reason, I didn't want to break anything). Ideas for my next attempt?
 
Okay, I figured out the problem and the tranny locks up when in park now. I will have to wait to see if I re-assembled everything correctly when I finish buttoning it up another day.
 
Patience is your best friend huh pete???

Balls??? Balls jumped out???

Ya didn't separate the two halves of the valve body did ya???? Aw shit!!!!!!

I hope you are only talking about the detent spring and the single ball which bears on the detent rooster comb!

I didn't advise what to do about that since I didn't think you would drop the valve body!

But...I loop a tie wrap around the rooster comb to pull it down against the valve body so the rooster comb can't jump out and let the detent ball and spring go flying!

The pic of the valve body I posted shows the position of that tiewrap. But it's too late now!

Getting the spring/ball/rooster comb back into position takes some finagling. Chrysler had a special tool for that, you can make one out of some really thin sheetmetal (like shim stock), or simply manipulate the parts into place with the valve body on the bench using two tiny thin blade screwdrivers. Once it's in position, then tie it down with tiewrap and mount the valve body. Once the park rod is attached with the e clip, then cut the tiewrap and remove.

If you need a reference pic of the actual check balls correctly positioned in the valve body by size, I'll post one.
 
This is a decent layout regarding the check ball position. This the master sheet from a transgo tf-2 kit. Pay no attention to all the rest of the gobbldeegook, just the ball locations and diameters.
 

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Thanks Mike, I actually have the Scout service manual and was able to use that as a layout to put all the balls back. The detent ball and spring was a bit of a pain, but I got it back in with just using my fingers, a flathead screwdriver and a bunch of cursing. The problem was in the tailhousing. The parking pawl socket was basically put in backwards so it would allow the sprag to go where it was supposed to and feel like it was in the proper socket, but it would never engage because there are no teeth where there was supposed to be to engage the output shaft. So I flipped it around and bolted it back on and it engages now. So I will throw the t-case back on today and see how everything is working now. Thanks for the advise!
 
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