ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Hi,

well, you don't need to wonder any longer... ;-)
here's my next set of questions. First, can engine oils turn acidic over time if not used much?

I'm just starting to research coolant filters and other anti-freeze related issues. And one of the first things I noticed is that many cooling system filters come with an impregnated slow-release chemical to combat acid corrosion.

So my question is not about oil in the bottle, but oil in the engine that might not get more than a few minutes of running engine use every few weeks or so while the truck is undergoing restoration work. So is it possible for the oil to turn bad or acidic before it appears dirty? And can that acidic level be tested with ph papers? And what should be the ph reading or range of ph for 306 oil?

Also, as there are long times between starting the engine, how long will the film of oil remain on the cam shaft etc so I'm not starting the engine dry? And a related question, how often must I start the engine to keep parts and seals good?

And what are your recommendations on an engine pre-luber - is it recommended, and if so, at what interval between engine starts does it become recommended? And if recommended, do you favor the canister types where the engine pressurizes / fills a canister with oil that is released immediately before the next engine start, or the small 12 volt electric motor type?
And doesn't a pre-luber momentarily pressurize the "wrong" side of the engine where the sudden burst of oil pressure will be also applying oil pressure to the wrong side of the oil filter, causing it to back-flush whatever crud its caught back into the engine's oil pump and possibly oil pan? Or do the benefits of pre-lubbing outweigh the potential damage it could be doing to the engine's oil pump?

Anyone here have any experience with any pre-luber?

Thanks.

Steve
 
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On pre lubing engine after it sits a while,unplug coil ,an then spin it over a few times till the oil pressure comes up,then plug coil back in an start it ? Jeff
 
Prolly 6 month's ? 4 ? It's just your preference ? If you let it sit for 2 month's,an get in an hit the key,it's not gonna start up rite away anyway's,gas will drain back,so if the gauge goes up before it fires,then you'd be ok ,... Jeff
 
Jeff campbell said:
prolly 6 month's ? 4 ? It's just your preference ? If you let it sit for 2 month's,an get in an hit the key,it's not gonna start up rite away anyway's,gas will drain back,so if the gauge goes up before it fires,then you'd be ok ,... Jeff
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Ok, thanks.
In the past I've always used a shot of starting fluid to save the starter motor... Perhaps not a good idea? But now it starts on the first revolution if it sits 2 weeks or less. And as I get more things done on the truck, I am beginning to start it more often. But it will sit awhile again when I start repair on the less critical things, such as the leaky fuel pump, 40 year old front motor mounts, double fan belt conversion, etc.

Steve
 
If no oil film is present, then rotation is rotation whether it be from the starter motor, by hand with a breaker bar or as a product of internal combustion. It all presents the same inherent damage potential. There's nothing to be gained by starter cranking with the coil wire unhooked in that case. Might as well just fire it up.
 
so is it possible for the oil to turn bad or acidic before it appears dirty? And can that acidic level be tested with ph papers?
Click to expand...

I say it can. The largest contributor to oil contamination is cylinder/piston blow by. From just running the motor a few minutes to short trips to the store can store up lots of unburnt fuel and combustion products with water in the oil. However if the oil is allowed to get hot enough by the engine being at operating temperature with a functioning thermostat, and the crankcase ventilation system is working, much of the water and contaminates are vaporized off and then it is not a big problem for the oil additives to do their job and protect the engine.

Key to this is a functioning pcv system. A road draft tube system works pretty good at speeds above 25 to 35 mph. If you're just hopping around and stop 'n go driving with a draft tube equipped engine; you can bet the contaminates are piling up in the oil. Two things that help, maybe 3, are frequent oil changes or a weekly drive above 40mph for 1/2 hour or so. The 3rd thing one can do is convert a draft tube system to an open or a closed pcv valved system. Yep, git rid of that draft tube and put a pcv valve in 'er.

The neat thing about a pcv valve is it is working any time the engine is running and suck'in out that nasty stuff regardless of road or engine speed.

For my low yearly mileage rigs, I change the oil at least once a year regardless of the miles logged. For the regularly driven ones, thanks to swepco I can change at about 5k miles and all pressures are good and no funny noises.

I don't know how the ph papers would work with oil. I do use them for checking coolant time to time. Definitely want to try them on new oil 1st and note any color change on subsequent testing.

As far as dry starts go, I've done well starter spinning with all spark plugs out and the throttle wide open and a shot or two oil in each cylinder. Less load on the bearings when there's no compression. Pre-lube is the best way to go. Your pre-lube gizmo seems pretty neat. I would go for the electric option as there's no tell'in how long the stored pressure can hold. But then again most of these engines are probably older than you and are still doing alright and you know there had to be long periods of setting.
 
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Greg said it all and is precisely right in his reply:

"the largest contributor to oil contamination is cylinder/piston blow by. From just running the motor a few minutes to short trips to the store can store up lots of unburnt fuel and combustion products with water in the oil. However if the oil is allowed to get hot enough by the engine being at operating temperature with a functioning thermostat, and the crankcase ventilation system is working, much of the water and contaminates are vaporized off and then it is not a big problem for the oil additives to do their job and protect the engine."

take into consideration that engine oil has an additive level known as having an "alkaline reserve" in the tbn which is the degree of protection to combat acid in the oil. When blowby occurs, fuel is present, and finds it's way to the crankcase where it mixes with the oil. In order to produce acid, water must be present with the fuel, it depends on the quality of the "anti-acid" as well as being in sufficient quantity that determines how much acid is in the oil.

Generally under normal driving circumstances, the water evaporates and is harmless, but in the case of rarely running the engine, everything is different, and the longer it sits, the worse it gets. Acid numbers and tbn numbers are usually listed on good oil analysis reports, I am not aware of a ph strip that is used, but maybe someone else is. Usually, anything over about 4.0 (+ - )in the mgkoh/g method of measuring for acid would be considered as normal, but it could go higher, if continued without maintenance. Reporting the acid number, or the tbn (total base number) is shown on reports for the benefit of whether or not the oil should be changed.

With the new restrictions on sulfur in fuels, we do not see as much acid in the oils as we used to. It is probably more noted in diesel engines than in gasoline engines at this time.

Steve, I can appreciate your anxiety, but I really think you are making a mountain out of a molehill! The simplest solution without testing is to fire up the engine at least monthly and let it run until it reaches normal operating temperature, then about another 15 - 20 minutes. That will be enough time for the engine to cook off any water that might have condensed in the engine, which will greatly reduce the incidence of acid formation.

As far as using starting fluid....be very careful doing so, if too much is used, you can seriously damage the engine! It has been reported that too much starting fluid results in such a powerful detonation that it can actually bend valves, or worse. Starting fluid is not one of those items that a little is good, but a lot is better!

Better quality oil, such as swepco's leaves a film of oil in the engine which provides protection against dry start ups. The use of a pre-luber is not necessary with better quality oil. I had a situation a few years ago when a customer had an old engine which he was running in a race car (yes, here we go racing again!) and built a new engine for the car. The old engine sat in the back of the shop for 8 years and he went back to it to take something off, and after removing the valve cover discovered that there was a nice coating of oil over everything inside!

Hopefully, this will cover the concerns you have.

Dick
 
Been a long time since this was posted, but there is a phenomenal amount of good information here.

I would like to make a comment about getting lubrication where it needs to be, a pre-lube if you will, in an engine that has been sitting for a long time. As scoutboy said, pulling the coil wire and cranking the engine puts much of the same damaging load on the engine as would just starting it.

There is another way. Nearly all the damaging bearing load on the engine is due to the compression stroke in the cycle of the engine. That compression loading is still there if the engine is turned by the starter with the coil pulled.

The way is to pull the spark plugs so there is no compression load driving the rod bearing hard against the journal. Most engines with the plugs pulled can be turned well enough with the starter to get oil everywhere it needs to be and show pressure on the gauge.

Then reinstall the plugs and start it up.
 
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Bruce,

I'm glad to see that people, such as yourself go into the archives to look up technical information. You are correct, the posts on this subject went for quite some time.

Your information about reducing the compression was good, and for further information on the subject swepco 306 engine oil has the great characteristic of remaining "wet", I've seen that in engines which have sat for huge periods of time. 306 is a great all-around product with regard to lubrication, and also longevity for equipment....you can also use it as a "break-in" oil for rebuilt engines because of the high zinc content, and it does not have to be drained out right away at that!

Dick floryanowich
df sales & marketing
 
Much of my experience also comes from years of working with people installing automotive engines in homebuilt aircraft. I have helped with many projects and the overhaul of aircraft engines. This method of pre-lube is common with new aircraft engines (lycomings and continentals). Certainly they are assembled with lubrication, but the engines are always spun with either manually pulling the prop through three or four dozen times, or spinning it with the starter, until oil pressure is evident on the gauge. Then the plugs are installed and the engine started.

I also built and raced fiat 600 engines, an exercise in futility. But I learned a lot about lubrication and lack there of!
 
I see my post had been deleted. So sorry! I just realized I was recommending what I guess is a competing product not talked about previously in this forum. I was trying to add value to the discussion. I did not realize IH parts was selling oil. Again, I apologize.

Having read previous posts, I have a suggestion for the swepco rep. Api sf had less zddp than se, and it went down in ppm from there. I might have considered swepco earlier, but swepco's website does not mention anything about zinc or phosphorous compounds at all, (although the moly compound could be a seller). Swepco does not mention it on their advertising pages, nor in their english data sheets for any of their oils. Furthermore, swepco does not mention a non-detergent break-in oil (with sd or se formula) separate from a detergent oil for normal use. I have no doubt swepco is a good product, perhaps even superior in some ways to se oil formulas from the 70's or sf from the 80's. But like swepco, lots of oils on the auto parts shelves also have on-line website ads saying they are good for "pre-1995" and "older vehicles". In fact, se oil formulation May ruin modern catalytic converters, but it was the spec for my '79 scouts even though that was the first year scouts were fully smogged, and necessary for "flat tappet" cams.

I would suggest that if swepco 306 is a proper oil for solid lifter cams (one non-detergent for break-in and one detergent for normal running?), swepco could sell a lot more to the other older "flat tappet" car folks, not just for old IH trucks. Just state the pertinent specs in the swepco website. From the ppm stated in a previous post here, 306 has less zinc and phos than se, maybe more similar to sf or later. Bottom line, I May consider swepco (after break-in) if they include the appropriate specs in their website, ads and data sheets, and if solid lifter camshaft suppliers will endorse a swepco product. The product I had mentioned in my deleted post is endorsed by many of the camshaft suppliers (isky, crane, crower, schneider, howard, cam motion, koerner) because it has proper amount of zddp for solid lifters, comes both in break-in and normal formulas, and is equivalent to the old api se in zddp. This is a great forum, and I don't want to misguide anyone. Please comment on if/where I'm wrong?
 
Swepco started out in business in 1933, during the great depression, it was a horrible time to start a new business, but they saw the need for products which were higher quality and gave back greater rewards to the customer in the way of protection and reducing lubricant related expenses. From that time they have grown to be an International manufacturing and sales company selling to customers in over 80 countries around the world.

With that short intro, let me also add that a company with such a stellar record would not have lasted very long if they were selling "snake oil."

whether or not se or sf had more zinc is of little consequence, I am not privy to that information, however I do know that our product, the 306, had higher zinc and phosphorous levels than the other oils at the same time, and now that sn has a low maximum zinc level of approx. 800 ppm, we needed to stay with 306 to help those who wanted to get more zinc for those older (than 2007) engines. Consequently we did not change the formula for 306 which has 1600ppm of zinc and 1200ppm of phosphorous...other additives in the oil are also built to work synergistically with those levels to insure that one is not going to be out of balance, which could also cause problems.

The one thing about swepco is that they have never advertised, the sales they enjoy is from a well trained group of professionals who can give the proper recommendations for not only engines, but also industrial accounts as well. You will not find the figures for any additives in the brochures, or in the msds sheets as that is considered proprietary. They are really not interested in competing with the companies who are making their own "break-in" product, as generally speaking it does not take very much in the way of exotic tribology to achieve and would not bring in enough sales to warrant manufacturing.

Swepco has never manufactured a "break-in" oil, and probably never will. I have engine builders who use our high friction modified, high detergent 306 when breaking in an engine and have never had problems with cams or for that matter anything else going south. Of course, cams must be pre-lubed on assembly to prevent dry start up before the oil can get to it. There are many good quality cam pre-lubes on the market, and once again, we will not get into that line because of the same reasons mentioned above.

I was having a conversation with one of my engine builder customers not too long ago, and the subject of "break-in" oil was discussed. He told me that if a good engine builder put together a quality product, with quality parts, labor and lubricant, there is no reason to have to drain the "break-in" oil after what a lot of the other companies suggest doing (could vary anywhere from 1 hour to 50 miles or maybe a little more). He went on to say that any engine builder worth his salt would not have metal particles or dirt in the engine when it was built. I asked about the spec that has gone around for years to use a 30wt non-detergent oil, and he scoffed at that stating that it is not necessary when using swepco 306 in the multi-grade formulas. I respect his opinion as he has been an engine builder, and inventor for close to 50 years.

The product you were recommending (telling people to use) is very popular in the industry. I have nothing personal against them, however we have been up against them, as well as other "newbies" on the block who have done a terrific job in advertising, and cannot find where the bottom line does better, and usually theirs is anywhere from $4.00 to $8.00 per quart more for their products.

IHPA has purchased and recommended swepco products since January 2007. The forum section is provided as informational for primarily use in IH's, in which most of the original oem recommendations call for obsolete products. However, this is a capitalistic society, and anyone can use what they feel is best for themselves, but we have a rather dim view of someone trying to promote product(s) to everyone reading the forum to switch to something else because they "like it better", or because it "does a good job for them." we have a great track record and relationship with IHPA, and plan on keeping it that way.
 
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Hey guys,
a lot of great info here but I didn't see anything on why you run certain grades of the stuff (10w30, 15w40 and 20w50).

So what grade of swepco would you recommend for my Scout?

It's a '77 with a 304, 727, 33 mtrs and 3.73s. I live in massachusetts where average temp might be 80 degrees when I use it in the summer and right around sea level. It is a summer truck only and does little to no towing (5k boat twice a year for about 40 miles total). I run it on the highway quite a bit tacking around 2900 rpm and I do maybe 4k miles a year.
Thanks,
 
As a customer I would say the 15-40 should fit your bill perfectly. With oregon weather similar to your stated conditions when I use mine, it's been perfect for me. Occasionally I use it in the snow and on cold mornings it cranks just fine at 10 below.
 
I use sae 15w-40 weight in both my '79 Scout IH 345 I recently rebuilt and also in my old '79 Scout (250,000 mile) 345. Oil pressure is fine in both, although the older one uses a little oil over time. I used to live in Pennsylvania until 12 years ago and they were my daily drivers. Here in georgia I usually drive them mostly during warmer months, but they still get exercise all year from 30 to 90 degrees. So 15w-40 swepco or any quality brand that is good for solid lifter cams (similar to the old api class se) should be fine. Otherwise, I defer to the swepco agent in this forum.
Fyi: --I have the original '79 Scout owner's manuals and in the '79 owner's emissions manual it has a whole lot of choices of straight and multi viscosities for a whole range of air temperatures from -10f to +120f deg. Using from 5w-20 up to 20w-40 (with a service classification of se-cd, se, or cc).
--I also have the original '72 Scout owner's manual that says use sae 30 or sae 20w-40 for over 32deg. Air temp (with a service classification of sc or sd), and gives lower weights for lower temps.
 
77ssii said:
hey guys,
a lot of great info here but I didn't see anything on why you run certain grades of the stuff (10w30, 15w40 and 20w50).

So what grade of swepco would you recommend for my Scout?

It's a '77 with a 304, 727, 33 mtrs and 3.73s. I live in massachusetts where average temp might be 80 degrees when I use it in the summer and right around sea level. It is a summer truck only and does little to no towing (5k boat twice a year for about 40 miles total). I run it on the highway quite a bit tacking around 2900 rpm and I do maybe 4k miles a year.
Thanks,
Click to expand...

The proper weight selection for engine oil is based primarily on the ambient temperature range the vehicle is operated in. Obviously, you would not want to run a high viscosity weight oil, like 20w50 in below zero temperatures. But for the location you mentioned I believe that the 15w40 will be a very good choice. Optimum ambient temperature range for 15w40 would be very close to 10 degrees f to 114 degrees f. If you wish to have a lower temperature flow rate you could drop down to 10w30, but it also drops the top end down slightly as well...somewhere around 105. On the other hand using a 20w50 will raise the bottom end temperature into an oil suitable for around 20, to a top end of 120 or so.

Ideally, the right weight choice would be to take into consideration the elimination of seasonal oil changes.

Hope that helps.
 
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