Turn Signal/Hazard light problems

J

jmalloy

Member
Hi all!

I've been lurking for a while now, but this is my first post. Please bear with me while I get all of the logistics straightened out.

I am now the proud owner of a 1980 turbo diesel traveler (my first Scout!). It's in ok shape, and I'm going through the things required to make it road-worthy and able to pass va safety inspection. Among other things this requires the turn signals to work.

Here's what works and doesn't work:

headlights work correctly, both high and low beams
interior lights (under dash and two in ceiling) work
marker lights work correctly
left turn signal lights (front, rear, and dash indicator) but doesn't blink
right turn signal lights (rear and dash indicator, but not front) but doesn't blink
hazards do nothing.
Most electrical dash gauges do not work - I'll work on this next, but I need to get to the point where I can legally drive it on the road so I can get it to the shop...)
heat/ac work

I do have the service manuals (two volumes) and the engine manual.

Now for the fun:

I started troubleshooting with the connector at the base of the steering wheel. My plan was to map out voltages across the various wires under "off", "left turn", "right turn" and "hazard" scenarios. As I was mapping out "right turn", I noticed that the wiring I was testing was getting hot so I stopped. Obviously, there was a short somewhere. (why didn't I blow a fuse?)

since the front right indicator build wasn't lighting, I next pulled it out, and discovered that the po had spliced in a tiny wire going to the side marker light. I removed that wire and now the front marker doesn't light but the wiring under the dash doesn't get hot either. I assume the jumper was a lame attempt to make something work - it doesn't look like it helped.

I have pictures of the front turn signal with a disintegrated connector, the side marker light with a piece of copper wire as the mechanical attachment to the fender, the fubared jumper, and the line setting ticked (in case for some obscure reason the transmission is relevant to the wiring issue). I need to adjust the resolution before I can post them.

I won't have time to touch this tomorrow (Sunday), but plan to tear apart whatever is required to track this down on Monday.

Questions:

1. What did I forget to tell you that will help you help me?
2. I'm guessing that the short toasted the turn signal blinker relay. It's only a $3 part, but it will take me a few days to get one (local shop doesn't have it in stock). How can I test the blinker relay to see if it is part of the problem?
3. If I understand correctly, the hazards have their own blinker relay. Where would it be located? (not on the fuse block or anywhere else that makes sense to me...)
4. Any suggestions on how to painlessly trace wires (ha!). Ok - any suggestions from the folks who have done this before that May save me some time or pain?

Thanks!
 
First "problem" (to me) is the side marker light (pic 4)...

Do not know what happended to cause it to "burn up"

the "metal" / "chrome" trim should have a plastic housing that the connector (burnt in your picture) fits (45* "twist") into.

There is no copper wire, like in your picture, that "holds" the plastic connector.

So, you need to do some junkyard "dumpster diving" and get a complete marker light "assembly" (maybe still available as nos from a light line dealer?).

You need a "new" connector -- not burnt up -- probably the only source (afaik) is junkyard or someone who has a parts Scout and will cut off the connector.

Never had a turn signal flasher fail and cause a short --- yours May be "bad", but doubt it is a cause of a short.

Same for the hazard lights -- assume that the switch on the steering column is out (off). So, I doubt that the hazard light flasher figures in this -- other than it May be bad...

Should check the bulkhead connector -- main electrical "connection" between the engine compartment and interior. If there is indication of "burnt" contacts / wires / etc, this needs to be "cleaned up" / repaired.

You also need to check the fuse block (not sure where it is on a Scout) (remove neg cable on battery...). "pull it" and check the back for "creative" wiring "fixes" by the po. Also, check all the fuses... Maybe a fuse did not "blow" because it already had and was creatively bypassed by the po...

Ther May be other wiring "issues" (burnt) under your dash...

Good luck...
 
Thanks!

I was aware that the copper wire as mechanical connection was non-standardard:) I've only pulled the one side marker and both front markers, but all three have some problem or another. Both front markers are missing gaskets and, as shown in the pics, the passenger side one has a disintegrated connector. I intend to correct all of that. I'll also check the rest of the lights and wiring to see what other weirdness the po left me.

I hadn't considered pulling the fuse block. I'll add that to the list. The po also left me a non-standard radio setup. He probably tapped in there somewhere.
 
Also, given that the driver's side blinkers light but don't blink, I suspect the blinker relay May be bad. Not so much that it went bad and took out everything else, but that the short melted the blinker relay. Since it's going to be a few days until I can buy one to verify this I was looking for a test procedure to see if the one I have is bad. I don't mind spending $3 to plug one in and see if it works better, but I'd rather not have to wait to find out.

Do the hazard lights have their own blinker? I'd assume so since the load is different (twice as many bulbs)and the blink rate would be wrong otherwise, but I don't see one. If so, where should I be looking?
 
Re hazard flasher -- for your vehicle I do not know (I have a t/a). The wiring diagram in the t/a manual shows that there are separate flashers - hazard and turn signal.

The wiring diagram in your manual should show what yours has.

Re IH wiring diagrams (service manual) --

IH wiring used all green wires (at least on my 73 t/a, do not know if they carried this thru to 80, but I assume so).

The wires have the circuit number stenciled in white on the wire -- assuming undamaged wire (and you can read it). You can match the number on the wire to the numbers in the wiring diagram.

Yes, maybe the po tapped into the wrong wire(s) when he put the radio in -- you could pull the radio and check which circuit(s) he tapped into (assuming you can read the number(s) on the wire).

What is the condition of rear taillights? You did not mention the brake lights working?

Based on your LST, your traveler came from the factory with a trailer wiring harness...

What is the condition of the wiring harness / connector (around the rear bumper). If the trailer wiring harness / connector is damaged, this might be the source of a short, also.

Jeff (ihon) has new side marker light assemblies and gaskets for the front parking lenses (and taillights, also).
 
First off, you are going at this issue from many different directions/ends. Start at the load end (the bulb) and work back to the current source. In order to do that you must use either voltmeter or a test light. The test light is better as it provides enough of a load to create a "flash" condition in an electro-mechanical flasher for dealing with the turn signals and four-ways.

Second, you must study the actual wiring schematic that you have in the two volume manual set you say you have (cts 2313).

After the '77 production run, schematics changed each year and you must use the correct version for the diesel and the traveler, that is a fact as they wire runs are not "all the same" as the gas engine-powered variations of the Scout II. You should be using the diagrams that begin in section cts-2792, page 1 and end at page 33, paying particular attention to the diesel callouts. And the wiring system for any Scout II is not even close to the wiring system used in pickalls and any other fullsize IH-produced vehicle.

The '77 and later schematics published are outstanding items, very descriptive, very accurate with pictorials describing actual component locations. The same information for model years prior to '77 is abysmal as produced originally by ihc. Inaccurate, ambiguous, and some loads/runs not referred to.

The lighting buckets in your vehicle are plastic, not the metallic units that "self-ground" in previous years production. Each and every ground point on tat body must be taken apart, cleaned, verified, and then re-mounted in a proper manner, electrically-speaking. Someone in the past has butchered the electrical system on that vehicle when in actuality, probably all that was wrong was some of the ground points were crapped.

All lighting unit pigtails should be replaced with new, otherwise you will chase dim lighting/non-func/back-feeding grounds that impact lighting forever. Same for the side markers. All the pigtails/replacement sockets are simply items found on the shelf /wall at any auto parts, including the side markers.

I replace these pigtails/sockets all the time in customer work. I don't "clean" anything, that is a waste of time, simply replace with a new, clean socket and bulb, with the correct ground path, the lights always work. At the same time, all bulbs should be replaced with bulbs of the proper wattage in order for the flasher "load" to be equalized so that the flasher units for both the turn signals and the four-ways can operate correctly. The two flashers units (not relays) are identical and simple items available anywhere, even walmart!

In fact...three weeks ago one of our members here, "brotherbryce" got trained here at binder u. In how to deal with this same issue on his recently acquired '79 sii that had near identical lighting issues. At the end of the day, everything was working correctly and bryce (sparky) now knows what to do electrically-speaking on both the "early" Scout II electrics and the last gen stuff.
 
Yes, the sii's employed separate flash fuse relays for the signal and hazard systems. They are easy to find once you know where to look. One is housed in a little tension keeper that is integrated just above the fuse block. The other is housed in a keeper that is up under the instrument panel directly behind the temp/oil pod. You can either contort yourself on the floor and reach up to grab it, or remove the dash panel and that one gauge pod for easy retrieval.
 
Thanks to all who have replied thus far. I crawled under the dash, but I still can't see the hazard blinker. Later this week I'll pull the gauges. Given what I've found in the engine compartment, I think I want a good look inside the dash anyhow. Most (all except the speedo) gauges aren't working - maybe I'll get lucky and find out that they're simply unplugged...

I've inspected the wiring to all of the lights on the front of the Scout in detail. With the exception of horrendous things done very near the ends of many runs, the wiring seems intact. I haven't reassembled everything yet, but all exposed copper has been eliminated and the spurious connection between the blinker and the side marker has been removed. One curious thing - in addition to the horn connection out of the harness going to the head lights/blinkers, etc. Which terminates on the drivers side of the firewall there is a second wire running outside any harness that ends up running through the center of the firewall. I haven't checked the diagrams yet, but I'm assuming this isn't "stock".

There is indeed trailer wiring and with the exception of the license plate lights which are in use, the rest was relatively neatly dressed and tucked up into the bumper. The rear lights also appear clean and well grounded.

I'll update again after I get everything put back together and see how the lights are behaving.
 
jmalloy said:
thanks to all who have replied thus far. I crawled under the dash, but I still can't see the hazard blinker. Later this week I'll pull the gauges. Given what I've found in the engine compartment, I think I want a good look inside the dash anyhow. Most (all except the speedo) gauges aren't working - maybe I'll get lucky and find out that they're simply unplugged...

I've inspected the wiring to all of the lights on the front of the Scout in detail. With the exception of horrendous things done very near the ends of many runs, the wiring seems intact. I haven't reassembled everything yet, but all exposed copper has been eliminated and the spurious connection between the blinker and the side marker has been removed. One curious thing - in addition to the horn connection out of the harness going to the head lights/blinkers, etc. Which terminates on the drivers side of the firewall there is a second wire running outside any harness that ends up running through the center of the firewall. I haven't checked the diagrams yet, but I'm assuming this isn't "stock".

There is indeed trailer wiring and with the exception of the license plate lights which are in use, the rest was relatively neatly dressed and tucked up into the bumper. The rear lights also appear clean and well grounded.

I'll update again after I get everything put back together and see how the lights are behaving.
Click to expand...

Well, I have no answers, but a couple things to think about...

What is the wire that is "out of the harness" / "thru the firwall" connected to in the engine compartment -- battery? / altenator? / ???

Do not know why the horn relay is connected to the headlights -- is this the result (left over) of some idiotic burglar alarm installer???

Wish you luck -- think you had better disconnect both the neg and pos cables at the battery before you take the dash apart...
 
I was unclear.

The spade lug connected to the horn has two wires coming off of it. One ties into the wiring harness that also houses the headlights, turn signals and blinkers. The other runs along the drivers side fender (outside the sheathing the other wires are in) and then runs halfway across the firewall to another connector block. I'm not near the Scout at the moment, and I haven't yet checked to see if it's tied into that connector block or poked through the firewall near the connector block. It is _not_ electrically connected to the headlights, only running in the same wiring bundle.

My day job keeps me fairly busy. I probably won't be back to looking at the Scout until this weekend. My first order of business is to put all of the front lights back in, check grounds/connections, and rebaseline behavior. While I've cleaned things up a good bit I don't think I've solved the underlying problem yet. I'll update again when I know more.

Thanks again for all of the comments/advice!
 
Problem solved!

As michael mayben correctly guessed, the initial problem was that the passenger side front turn signal didn't have a ground connection because the po painted the clip that acts as a ground. The pos workaround was to take the black wire from that connector (_not_ ground) and tie it to the ground from the side marker light.

Ignoring all the other things I played with in between, the resolution was to:

- undo pos "fix"
- sand the paint off of the clip the turn signal screws into
- replace the blinker behind the instrument panel (thanks scoutboy74 - I would never have found that!)
- replace the fuse for the instrument panel, which controls the hazards but not the turn signals.

I have a few parts on order to make things mechanically sound, but I now have many pretty lights all of which blink when they are supposed to and don't blink when they shouldn't.

You guys are great!
 
Added bonus -

replacing the fuse for the instrument panel brought all gauges except the fuel gauge back to life. Not surprising, but pleasant none the less.
 
robertc said:
You need a "new" connector -- not burnt up -- probably the only source (afaik) is junkyard or someone who has a parts Scout and will cut off the connector.
Click to expand...

Robert:
if you are talking about the 1,2,3,4 & 6 conductor male/female connector plugs as found in Scout II's they are delphi packard 56 series connectors.

I can name you at least three sources. Myself as being one. Pm for prices.
 

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mjolnir said:
Robert:
if you are talking about the 1,2,3,4 & 6 conductor male/female connector plugs as found in Scout II's they are delphi packard 56 series connectors.

I can name you at least three sources. Myself as being one. Pm for prices.
Click to expand...

I do not personally need any. I did not think they were still being made.

Good info for future reference
 
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