Timing and dwell on a 304

[Michael Mayben]

I have been driving the Scout around town all day and have found that with every start, it has taken longer and longer to start. Lot's of pumping is required.

Any suggestions?

Too good to last huh??

If you have to "pump" the loud pedal, that indicates a fuel issue.

I watched your accel pump circuit actuate and it acted as it should. That means by pumping the pedal, each time it squirts additional liquid fuel right down the carb throats and creates a "flood". The only way to clear a "flood" is to push and hold the pedal wide open until the engine starts. Then don't pump it any more!

I'm thinking you May now need to "re-learn" your starting procedure. Remember, yore carb is equipped with the "hot air" choke system.

When full cold, if the choke system is working properly, then give it one rapid pedal push to "set" the choke and squirt into the throats. Then take yore foot away from the pedal and do not "pump" at all. It should go right to fast idle, it did that here though you May not have been aware at the time since you were snakebit!

When "hot" (say after sitting 15 minutes at the schoolhouse), again...one pedal push and then crank.

I'm not saying ya don't have carb issues now...remember we talked a bit about "e10" and it's negative effects on the overall fuel system? And the fact that your rig has set over the last several months due to the drivability issues has made the carb a prime candidate for e10 attack! Iirc you told me the carb was rebuilt quite awhile ago, typical service life on this crap we have for gasoline now is about two years if the rig is used consistently, much less if allowed to sit for long periods of inactivity.

So...try the "new" starting technique and then report back. It May not be perfect, but is part of figgerin' out what's going on! Don't rule out another work session involving a carb build...ya saw the pile of near identical 2300 carbs I have here, they all have similar issues...rotten fuel/e10!

 

[Heath M]

Go easy on me here cause if I get to stressed I will black out like those "fainting goats" on youtube ...

I decided to go with the pertronix ignitor II, you mentioned while I was there. Should be a worthwhile upgrade.

I was looking into ordering the pertronix ignitor II, part number 91481, today. However, I thought I should be absolutely sure I didn't need anything else to get this to work.

I searched the forums, which is always hit and miss due to slang. I did find a thread that states you need to be real careful and know that the instructions are usually wrong for an ihc application. There was another thread that was geared towards replacing the distributor points with electronic ones, but it was too technical and a different situation.

With the Holley distributor, having curved points, model number: 427908-c91 (also a 254 stamped on the casing. See photo attached), I was told by pertronix to use the ignitor II, part number 91481. What do you think? You also mentioned eliminating the fabric "toaster" wire. Right?

Lastly, and where I am confused the most, is in the coil I need. It seems I get lost because of... Well it is easy for me to default to the lost mode, but there is talk of these boxes (cd boxes??) when you talk of coils. I am confused. Can you just use the stock coil, or the flamethrower such in such? I also got lost on the ohm's thing, which I think involved the box previously mentioned.

Once I get this all figured out as to what I need, I am going to do a "complete step-by-step points conversion in a Holley distributor" write up. So, I need to be properly informed.

Any lowtech (meaning simple) words of wisdom for an up an coming ihc knuckle buster on this?

 

[Michael Mayben]

Fainting goats and chupacabras go hand-in-hand man! One feeds on the other! That's why we ain't got no goats on tha place here! We smoked tha chuppies last year and they since migrated sumwheres else since the goat population is now diminished.

Your scenario is excellent!!!! And the p-II gives ya a little extra "protection".

And your stock coil ya got on there now will work just fine, no need to replace that until it takes a leave of absence...which May be never!

But...once ya git the p-tron in hand, yawl come up here and I'll train you and wes in "distributor freshening 101". I have one or two in progress all the time, I promise...the end play in your distributor is excessive, getting that handled will really wake her up! Pull the distributor and come up in wes' ride so we can install his other carb. That way both of ya will know how to deal with the carbs more effectively, and be trained regarding the distributor stuff. Wes did see some of that when we had the training session. Hell...his spark maker prolly needs luv to!

The distributor on the left in this pic is identical to yours, only it's received the "luv" touch and is now back in oem condition. The one on the right is a fully built Holley with p-tron.

 

[sua sponte]

firing order 345

Hey there guys I have a really quick question that might seem like one of dem stupid ones I usually have, but as far as timing goes my number one startes on front driver side, right? And when I want to get it in time do I gotta put the number one on tdc. And my rotor in dist. Should be faces the #1 plug, right?
And what is the firing order for a 345.

 

[Robert Kenney]

That is how it is done but the timing marks are associated with #8 (passenger side rear cylinder). Also when setting timing with a light use #8. You can stab the dizzy at #1 but more accurate to use #8. Rotor should be pointing at the #8 distributer cap tower location.


While you stab the dizzy the gear will rotate the rotor so you got to compensate for that about one tooth. You will see what I meen when you do it.

You have two top dead centers to deal with when setting the engine to tdc #8. Each are 1 complete revolution away from each other.

1) top of the compression stroke of #8- when both valves are closed and while you hand turn the crank ccw, as the piston comes up you will feel air pressure on your finger at the spark plug hole.
Continue turning untill the timing marks line up balancer Mark and "0" on the timing cover
this is the one you want to use as the #8 timing tdc.

2) top of exhaust stroke and begining of the intake stroke when both valves are open a bit. Exhaust is closing and intake is opening. You will not feel the air pressure on your finger at the #8 plug hole while the timing marks approach each other. Keep turning one more turn.

Sv firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.

 

[sua sponte]

Okay I did that now I have the timing gun on it, what should it read? I tried at zero and it left me stranded for ah bit. So I put it at 7* and it kinda boggs out when I come to a stop then press the gas to take off it back fires out of the carb no flame just gas and it takes a little time to start . What could it be?

 

[Robert Kenney]

When you set the base/idle timing,the idle rpm needs to be set to 600-700 no more and the vacuum advance disconnected and pluged. I don't know the exact base setting but 7* is close.

Many things can cause your problem, typicaly backing up through the carb is a lean condition. Retarded timing can cause/exagerate a lean condition. If timing and ignition is spot on recheck all aspects of your fuel system and carb.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Put the timing light away.

Review this thread and do it:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/2122-ignition-power-timing.html

Get the ignition system totally sorted out and only then do ya scruu with the carb!

Once it's running correctly and if you are curious, then shoot the timing with the light and see what the actual base timing number is at that point.

You also must verify that the vacuum advance unit is working properly...if it's not, you will never get the "tip-in" performance settled...and that is what you are experiencing now. Tip-in is affected by proper ignition system operation across the board, along with correct idle mixture settings followed by a correct accelerator pump shot adjustment and functionality.