wbrent7766
Member
Mayben, just cause I got kinda "trained" in the process a few weeks ago doesn't mean I remember any of it.
Timing and dwell on a 304
- Thread starter Heath M
- Start date
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Ya gotta have a gasket between the distributor and the seat in the block. I use an "o" ring in that spot.
If ya don't have a gasket of some sort to space the distributor up (about 0.060"), the drive gear will actually contact the lower distributor shaft support bushing in the block and make a mess! Not to mention there will be an oil leak.
Just yesterday, one of our club members and localyokels who has been hangin' up here a lot this past winter brought a Holley distributor to me to part out that was also frozen inna 304 black he had about five years ago. I had already robbed some parts out of it back then, but he finally whittle the block away from it in small chunks over the years and the pile of shavings went to schnitzers!
That's ok wes...I just woke up from my regularly scheduled siesta also! When yawl comin' up for a workday??? And since it looks like wes hassa canoe, did ya tell him he can launch and retrieve in our front yard??
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Yep! Or make a trip up here and I'll give ya some!
Best deal in the world is those "o" ring kits that are dirt cheep at harbor freight! I use that stuff constantly and either the metric set or the english set has at least two stacks of "o" rings that will work. That's a lifetime supply of "o" rings for under $8! Wes will need some too!
Heath M
Member
I bought the hf set. I am available to come out any day. When where you thinking?
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Thursday or Friday this week works for me! The Ford highboy rolling chassis is in the shop now but it can be sent back outside with a tarp over it since rain is forecast.
Yore call, what ever is best for you. My cell is 510.501.3680, if I don't pick up, then leave a message...sometimes I can't find my phone!
Heath M
Member
Ya must of lost your phone... I left you a message about Thursday.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Got it! I'm callin' ya back rat now!
Heath M
Member
All I can say is thanks!
I pulled out of the driveway Thursday morning to make a trip to mayben land. I had to pull over 6 times on our street because the thing kept dying.
I finally got it to stay running and made the trip. When I arrived in leaburg, I pulled over on the side of the road to turn around and it kept dying on me. I could not get it to go at all without dying. Luckily I could simi-coast through a driveway to the road I needed and into his driveway. I pulled in to the shop and turned the engine off. The backfire that I had my ears plugged and ready for, scared the crap out of Mike.
We looked it over for a couple hours and then Mike lovingly gripped that distributor and adjusted it in meaningful way. This seemed to pep up the engine up. We spent time dialing that distributor in until it was just right, adjusting the idle as well.
Once the ignition sounded tuned in we moved to the carb. The carb is to remain untouched until you dial the ignition in or you will just end up chasing your tail all over the place. The carb needed the mixture drastically changed and once it was set, that virgin Scout purred like a kitty-kat.
We then went to put it on the analyzer, which I was very interested to see, however it was not working for some reason. I really wanted to see that old school scope show something.
Anyway... Mike wanted to do a little "power timing" (see http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...es-pertronix-require-timing-readjustment.html) to finish it up. We did a revised version of this since I had an automatic. He did what he did, and I am not sure I actually "heard" what it was.
With everything we did up there Thursday, it was all "by ear". No timing lights were used. Frankly, who cares what the timing light says. It is a smoothing running engine you want not a number. I have tried setting it to the spec in the service manual and it ran like a cat with only a one front and one back leg and no tail. Crappy!
After all was done, Mike made me feel like a king with all the talk of my virgin 1972 Scout and how strong the engine sounded. I can't thank you enough.
Now I need to get that "gun shy" mind set out of my head. There are a lot of you out there that know what I am talking about. You warm your Scout up for an hour, you drive all over the place on "safe" streets before hitting the freeway on-ramp, you wait forever before pulling out into traffic and you pump the heck out of the gas peddle any time you accelerate from a stop so it doesn't die. That is how I had to drive. Living in fear.
Some of you May think that is it, give up and parkit for a while or indefinitely. In all reality, you just need to tune it in by ignition first then carb. I have got to get rid of this fear of stalling. My Scout did not fail me once that long trip home. I can reach in through the window, turn the key and it start without pumping the gas pedal 5 hundred times. The fear is leaving, but it takes a whole new mind set.
Now I can focus on the oil leak... As he will attest... Is overly excessive. Thanks for teaching me so that I can now do it.
Pictures of my Scout can be found at my gallery:
ihc Scout II photo gallery | heath mcconnell
I pulled out of the driveway Thursday morning to make a trip to mayben land. I had to pull over 6 times on our street because the thing kept dying.
I finally got it to stay running and made the trip. When I arrived in leaburg, I pulled over on the side of the road to turn around and it kept dying on me. I could not get it to go at all without dying. Luckily I could simi-coast through a driveway to the road I needed and into his driveway. I pulled in to the shop and turned the engine off. The backfire that I had my ears plugged and ready for, scared the crap out of Mike.
We looked it over for a couple hours and then Mike lovingly gripped that distributor and adjusted it in meaningful way. This seemed to pep up the engine up. We spent time dialing that distributor in until it was just right, adjusting the idle as well.
Once the ignition sounded tuned in we moved to the carb. The carb is to remain untouched until you dial the ignition in or you will just end up chasing your tail all over the place. The carb needed the mixture drastically changed and once it was set, that virgin Scout purred like a kitty-kat.
We then went to put it on the analyzer, which I was very interested to see, however it was not working for some reason. I really wanted to see that old school scope show something.
Anyway... Mike wanted to do a little "power timing" (see http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...es-pertronix-require-timing-readjustment.html) to finish it up. We did a revised version of this since I had an automatic. He did what he did, and I am not sure I actually "heard" what it was.
With everything we did up there Thursday, it was all "by ear". No timing lights were used. Frankly, who cares what the timing light says. It is a smoothing running engine you want not a number. I have tried setting it to the spec in the service manual and it ran like a cat with only a one front and one back leg and no tail. Crappy!
After all was done, Mike made me feel like a king with all the talk of my virgin 1972 Scout and how strong the engine sounded. I can't thank you enough.
Now I need to get that "gun shy" mind set out of my head. There are a lot of you out there that know what I am talking about. You warm your Scout up for an hour, you drive all over the place on "safe" streets before hitting the freeway on-ramp, you wait forever before pulling out into traffic and you pump the heck out of the gas peddle any time you accelerate from a stop so it doesn't die. That is how I had to drive. Living in fear.
Some of you May think that is it, give up and parkit for a while or indefinitely. In all reality, you just need to tune it in by ignition first then carb. I have got to get rid of this fear of stalling. My Scout did not fail me once that long trip home. I can reach in through the window, turn the key and it start without pumping the gas pedal 5 hundred times. The fear is leaving, but it takes a whole new mind set.
Now I can focus on the oil leak... As he will attest... Is overly excessive. Thanks for teaching me so that I can now do it.
Pictures of my Scout can be found at my gallery:
ihc Scout II photo gallery | heath mcconnell
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Don't it feel guud to make real progress on "stuff" heath! It don't always work out that way...poor mikee dimock's weekend here wasn't so successful...but it will be when he gits some jingle in hiz jeans and we git his motor project goin' again!
It's always a treat to work with stuff that ain't botchinated! And to find out that rig came from just down the river from us years ago...I'd say this is a sign of good juju workin' in the mckenzie valley!
Yore welcome up here any time for doin' whatever...we need to put in some quality time this season on the river, the raft will come off the shop ceiling mid-May!
After ya left I pulled our s80 back in the shop and connected the analyzer...sure enuff, the #1 cylinder trigger connector was intermittent at the spark plug end! I installed the spare cable set I have and now it's working perfectly, just like wes and the rest of the crew saw a few weeks back!
But I'm tellin' ya, once we get all the oil drool stopped up, that motor is good-to-go anuther hunnertthou! The big test was...ya made it all the way back home without callin' for rescue...that don't always happen arount here!
I know this will revive your enthusiasm for gettin' the rig in shape...let's keep going! We need you and yore fambly unit at the bee in July!!!
Kool website ya got there! I had no idea!
Payback here's gonna be heavy though...ya didn't see that ovation acoustic I got standin' in the corner of the office did ya??? I'm the ultimate geetar poser and it's time someone showed me what to do with it after 15 years of bein' protected in the case! Think I'm too old to lernt?
It's always a treat to work with stuff that ain't botchinated! And to find out that rig came from just down the river from us years ago...I'd say this is a sign of good juju workin' in the mckenzie valley!
Yore welcome up here any time for doin' whatever...we need to put in some quality time this season on the river, the raft will come off the shop ceiling mid-May!
After ya left I pulled our s80 back in the shop and connected the analyzer...sure enuff, the #1 cylinder trigger connector was intermittent at the spark plug end! I installed the spare cable set I have and now it's working perfectly, just like wes and the rest of the crew saw a few weeks back!
But I'm tellin' ya, once we get all the oil drool stopped up, that motor is good-to-go anuther hunnertthou! The big test was...ya made it all the way back home without callin' for rescue...that don't always happen arount here!
I know this will revive your enthusiasm for gettin' the rig in shape...let's keep going! We need you and yore fambly unit at the bee in July!!!
Kool website ya got there! I had no idea!
Payback here's gonna be heavy though...ya didn't see that ovation acoustic I got standin' in the corner of the office did ya??? I'm the ultimate geetar poser and it's time someone showed me what to do with it after 15 years of bein' protected in the case! Think I'm too old to lernt?
Heath M
Member
Every person that plays a musical instrument is a poser... Well... Maybe not a poser, but there are those you look up to and use as inspiration when the going gets tough. This works the same way in the I-bought-a-Scout-and-don't-have-any-idea-what-to-do arena as well. Just pick the forsaken thing up and foodle around. No one is ever to old to learn. The ole' "can't teach an old dog new tricks" thing is a sham... I learned to power tune while parked in a garage!... And I am old to my kids.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
I got that "one chord and the truth" part down purdee good now...but I don't 'member which one it is???? I kin still hear guud enuff up close ta know when I got the thang tuned though!
That u2 line is a classic for all times!
You an' wes load up and scoutpool up to tha club meet on May 7, there'll be a sticker waitin' for ya! And I gotta ihon sticker pack here for ya too, shoulda thought of that yestidee!
Then we need yore famblee unit here on May 9 ta serve as the offishul IHSTO entertainment committee!! Tha kids need more exposure to tha right kinda folks!
wbrent7766
Member
Sounds like the trip up river went great. I guess I'll be seeing another Scout run around town 
.
.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Too good to last huh??
If you have to "pump" the loud pedal, that indicates a fuel issue.
I watched your accel pump circuit actuate and it acted as it should. That means by pumping the pedal, each time it squirts additional liquid fuel right down the carb throats and creates a "flood". The only way to clear a "flood" is to push and hold the pedal wide open until the engine starts. Then don't pump it any more!
I'm thinking you May now need to "re-learn" your starting procedure. Remember, yore carb is equipped with the "hot air" choke system.
When full cold, if the choke system is working properly, then give it one rapid pedal push to "set" the choke and squirt into the throats. Then take yore foot away from the pedal and do not "pump" at all. It should go right to fast idle, it did that here though you May not have been aware at the time since you were snakebit!
When "hot" (say after sitting 15 minutes at the schoolhouse), again...one pedal push and then crank.
I'm not saying ya don't have carb issues now...remember we talked a bit about "e10" and it's negative effects on the overall fuel system? And the fact that your rig has set over the last several months due to the drivability issues has made the carb a prime candidate for e10 attack! Iirc you told me the carb was rebuilt quite awhile ago, typical service life on this crap we have for gasoline now is about two years if the rig is used consistently, much less if allowed to sit for long periods of inactivity.
So...try the "new" starting technique and then report back. It May not be perfect, but is part of figgerin' out what's going on! Don't rule out another work session involving a carb build...ya saw the pile of near identical 2300 carbs I have here, they all have similar issues...rotten fuel/e10!
Heath M
Member
Go easy on me here cause if I get to stressed I will black out like those "fainting goats" on youtube ...
I decided to go with the pertronix ignitor II, you mentioned while I was there. Should be a worthwhile upgrade.
I was looking into ordering the pertronix ignitor II, part number 91481, today. However, I thought I should be absolutely sure I didn't need anything else to get this to work.
I searched the forums, which is always hit and miss due to slang. I did find a thread that states you need to be real careful and know that the instructions are usually wrong for an ihc application. There was another thread that was geared towards replacing the distributor points with electronic ones, but it was too technical and a different situation.
With the Holley distributor, having curved points, model number: 427908-c91 (also a 254 stamped on the casing. See photo attached), I was told by pertronix to use the ignitor II, part number 91481. What do you think? You also mentioned eliminating the fabric "toaster" wire. Right?
Lastly, and where I am confused the most, is in the coil I need. It seems I get lost because of... Well it is easy for me to default to the lost mode, but there is talk of these boxes (cd boxes??) when you talk of coils. I am confused. Can you just use the stock coil, or the flamethrower such in such? I also got lost on the ohm's thing, which I think involved the box previously mentioned.
Once I get this all figured out as to what I need, I am going to do a "complete step-by-step points conversion in a Holley distributor" write up. So, I need to be properly informed.
Any lowtech (meaning simple) words of wisdom for an up an coming ihc knuckle buster on this?
I decided to go with the pertronix ignitor II, you mentioned while I was there. Should be a worthwhile upgrade.
I was looking into ordering the pertronix ignitor II, part number 91481, today. However, I thought I should be absolutely sure I didn't need anything else to get this to work.
I searched the forums, which is always hit and miss due to slang. I did find a thread that states you need to be real careful and know that the instructions are usually wrong for an ihc application. There was another thread that was geared towards replacing the distributor points with electronic ones, but it was too technical and a different situation.
With the Holley distributor, having curved points, model number: 427908-c91 (also a 254 stamped on the casing. See photo attached), I was told by pertronix to use the ignitor II, part number 91481. What do you think? You also mentioned eliminating the fabric "toaster" wire. Right?
Lastly, and where I am confused the most, is in the coil I need. It seems I get lost because of... Well it is easy for me to default to the lost mode, but there is talk of these boxes (cd boxes??) when you talk of coils. I am confused. Can you just use the stock coil, or the flamethrower such in such? I also got lost on the ohm's thing, which I think involved the box previously mentioned.
Once I get this all figured out as to what I need, I am going to do a "complete step-by-step points conversion in a Holley distributor" write up. So, I need to be properly informed.
Any lowtech (meaning simple) words of wisdom for an up an coming ihc knuckle buster on this?
Attachments
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Fainting goats and chupacabras go hand-in-hand man! One feeds on the other! That's why we ain't got no goats on tha place here! We smoked tha chuppies last year and they since migrated sumwheres else since the goat population is now diminished.
Your scenario is excellent!!!! And the p-II gives ya a little extra "protection".
And your stock coil ya got on there now will work just fine, no need to replace that until it takes a leave of absence...which May be never!
But...once ya git the p-tron in hand, yawl come up here and I'll train you and wes in "distributor freshening 101". I have one or two in progress all the time, I promise...the end play in your distributor is excessive, getting that handled will really wake her up! Pull the distributor and come up in wes' ride so we can install his other carb. That way both of ya will know how to deal with the carbs more effectively, and be trained regarding the distributor stuff. Wes did see some of that when we had the training session. Hell...his spark maker prolly needs luv to!
The distributor on the left in this pic is identical to yours, only it's received the "luv" touch and is now back in oem condition. The one on the right is a fully built Holley with p-tron.
Your scenario is excellent!!!! And the p-II gives ya a little extra "protection".
And your stock coil ya got on there now will work just fine, no need to replace that until it takes a leave of absence...which May be never!
But...once ya git the p-tron in hand, yawl come up here and I'll train you and wes in "distributor freshening 101". I have one or two in progress all the time, I promise...the end play in your distributor is excessive, getting that handled will really wake her up! Pull the distributor and come up in wes' ride so we can install his other carb. That way both of ya will know how to deal with the carbs more effectively, and be trained regarding the distributor stuff. Wes did see some of that when we had the training session. Hell...his spark maker prolly needs luv to!
The distributor on the left in this pic is identical to yours, only it's received the "luv" touch and is now back in oem condition. The one on the right is a fully built Holley with p-tron.
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sua sponte
Member
firing order 345
Hey there guys I have a really quick question that might seem like one of dem stupid ones I usually have, but as far as timing goes my number one startes on front driver side, right? And when I want to get it in time do I gotta put the number one on tdc. And my rotor in dist. Should be faces the #1 plug, right?
And what is the firing order for a 345.
Hey there guys I have a really quick question that might seem like one of dem stupid ones I usually have, but as far as timing goes my number one startes on front driver side, right? And when I want to get it in time do I gotta put the number one on tdc. And my rotor in dist. Should be faces the #1 plug, right?
And what is the firing order for a 345.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
That is how it is done but the timing marks are associated with #8 (passenger side rear cylinder). Also when setting timing with a light use #8. You can stab the dizzy at #1 but more accurate to use #8. Rotor should be pointing at the #8 distributer cap tower location.
While you stab the dizzy the gear will rotate the rotor so you got to compensate for that about one tooth. You will see what I meen when you do it.
You have two top dead centers to deal with when setting the engine to tdc #8. Each are 1 complete revolution away from each other.
1) top of the compression stroke of #8- when both valves are closed and while you hand turn the crank ccw, as the piston comes up you will feel air pressure on your finger at the spark plug hole.
Continue turning untill the timing marks line up balancer Mark and "0" on the timing cover
this is the one you want to use as the #8 timing tdc.
2) top of exhaust stroke and begining of the intake stroke when both valves are open a bit. Exhaust is closing and intake is opening. You will not feel the air pressure on your finger at the #8 plug hole while the timing marks approach each other. Keep turning one more turn.
Sv firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.
While you stab the dizzy the gear will rotate the rotor so you got to compensate for that about one tooth. You will see what I meen when you do it.
You have two top dead centers to deal with when setting the engine to tdc #8. Each are 1 complete revolution away from each other.
1) top of the compression stroke of #8- when both valves are closed and while you hand turn the crank ccw, as the piston comes up you will feel air pressure on your finger at the spark plug hole.
Continue turning untill the timing marks line up balancer Mark and "0" on the timing cover
this is the one you want to use as the #8 timing tdc.
2) top of exhaust stroke and begining of the intake stroke when both valves are open a bit. Exhaust is closing and intake is opening. You will not feel the air pressure on your finger at the #8 plug hole while the timing marks approach each other. Keep turning one more turn.
Sv firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.
sua sponte
Member
Okay I did that now I have the timing gun on it, what should it read? I tried at zero and it left me stranded for ah bit. So I put it at 7* and it kinda boggs out when I come to a stop then press the gas to take off it back fires out of the carb no flame just gas and it takes a little time to start . What could it be?
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
When you set the base/idle timing,the idle rpm needs to be set to 600-700 no more and the vacuum advance disconnected and pluged. I don't know the exact base setting but 7* is close.
Many things can cause your problem, typicaly backing up through the carb is a lean condition. Retarded timing can cause/exagerate a lean condition. If timing and ignition is spot on recheck all aspects of your fuel system and carb.
Many things can cause your problem, typicaly backing up through the carb is a lean condition. Retarded timing can cause/exagerate a lean condition. If timing and ignition is spot on recheck all aspects of your fuel system and carb.
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Put the timing light away.
Review this thread and do it:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/2122-ignition-power-timing.html
Get the ignition system totally sorted out and only then do ya scruu with the carb!
Once it's running correctly and if you are curious, then shoot the timing with the light and see what the actual base timing number is at that point.
You also must verify that the vacuum advance unit is working properly...if it's not, you will never get the "tip-in" performance settled...and that is what you are experiencing now. Tip-in is affected by proper ignition system operation across the board, along with correct idle mixture settings followed by a correct accelerator pump shot adjustment and functionality.
Review this thread and do it:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/2122-ignition-power-timing.html
Get the ignition system totally sorted out and only then do ya scruu with the carb!
Once it's running correctly and if you are curious, then shoot the timing with the light and see what the actual base timing number is at that point.
You also must verify that the vacuum advance unit is working properly...if it's not, you will never get the "tip-in" performance settled...and that is what you are experiencing now. Tip-in is affected by proper ignition system operation across the board, along with correct idle mixture settings followed by a correct accelerator pump shot adjustment and functionality.