The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

[Robert Kenney]

Thanks for the info. I agree with the boost/budget correlation. I will most likely limit manifold to 10-12# above sea level if inter-cooled or 8 if not mainly due to the head bolt per cylinder of 4 and availible pump fuel.

The bbc rod transplant is real cheap. Less than $150.00 / 4 banger. + crank work. Also gives me room to stroke the motor to 3.831. With only reducing the journal size to 2.200 (bbc) and narrowing the cheek.

I don't like the heat induced by welding the bearing surface.so I prefer the reduction of width and offset to welding.

I am having forged slugs quoted right now.

The v8 will be more difficult to balance due to the fairly major Bob weight change. Probably take 2-3 lbs off of the cw. The 4 banger will only need minor dynamic/matching work.

Thanks again.
Robert

 

[Michael Mayben]

Sorry I didn't get back to ya yesterday Robert...I wuz in the cellphone deadzone for awhile and then elbow-deep in wayne's non-oiler 392.

This afternoon and evening will be involved with leakdown test onna 352 furd so I'll be in the shop with Todd, we'll be preppin' the cab for removal from the rolling chassis also. I'll ring ya up then. Dave May be here then too, since it's Friday he usually stops in to see what's for dinner.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Michael,
I got time, don't worry we will get it done even if it takes till 2009.

I now have 2 of my own to build. Mine and one for a buddy. Also have a 304 to do up for another buddy. I will need a standard sized 345 crank for that.

I will be buying the set of bbc rods in the next couple of weeks to use on my engine and if you go a different direction I will have a place to hang the other four rods.

The cd dave came up with is the same cd I have with the stroked 196 crank and bbc rods. I suppose the worst case would be bushing the bbc rods to take the .0625 smaller pin I will stick with the bbc (990) pin and have pistons made..

I will need a 196 crank to do initial mock of my engine to make sure everything fits.

Either way give me a call tonight and if dave is around we can discuss shizz.

Robert

 

[Robert Kenney]

This project is only temporarily back burner. After I get over paying property tax and paying off the holiday induced debt I am going to order an off the shelf set of rods that I feel best integrate into our plans to stroke the two 4 bangers. I will send 4 of the rods to mm in orygon for his project if he wants them.

I need the rods to decide how the crank rod journal width will be modified including placing the proper journal fillet clearance chamfer on the rods big end(only one side on a v8 rod).

Then it will be off to Lancaster to pickup a crank or two from Mike at IH only. After sizing the cranks up I will sent to my crank guy for updates.

I have chosen lifter bushings already and will be having them installed and fitted for roller lifters. I have not gone any further on the cam design though that is really fairly simple. Lobe books exist from all of the major grinders to chose from based on desired major or minor lobe diameters.

More after the first of the year.

Robert

 

[Michael Mayben]

I'm inna holding pattern also, as I've yet to get both the core motors all the way down for inspection. I'm way overextended on other folks projects, but we did get wayne's 392 motor oilin' today, so that's one down the rathole for now!

Dave's core supplier just let us know on Monday that he has two 196 cranks available. We're still trying to find time to make a run up there and inventory all the IH-related core stuff they have. I don't know if those two motors are already broke down or May still be complete. If the cranks are already on the ground, then I'll have the "parts source" do the machine work on the cranks in portland.

I don't wanna bust down my existing 196 just to rob a crank, those motors are too hard to come by to part out. And I've used the rig three times this past week as a tug around here, it's a helluva lot more useful than a teama mules ya gotta feed every day and clean up after.

 

[Mike Stevens]

So ...where do I find the budget 152 build up thread? I'm thinking: cam, header, port & polish, and fuel injection. Do 304 cams work in 152s and is there a 2.5l f.I. Option you have been considering? Yeah funny noob questions. thanks guys! I love this forum!

 

[Robert Kenney]

Mike,

real sorry we missed your question.... Here it goes, better late than never

so ...where do I find the budget 152 build up thread? I'm thinking: cam, header, port & polish, and fuel injection.

We don't have a budget 2.5l build here yet but I'm sure we could work you up a nice spec for relatively little money.

What do ya want to get out of it? More torque will take a bit of effort but a good cam with high lift and short duration say 202-204 intake duration, compression say 9-1 for 87 regular or 9.5-1 and use mid grade 89 octane. We can have basically any profile ground on a 4 popper cam core. The 4 cylinder cam core is no longer made but we have a rebuilder who builds up the old lobes so the proper lift integral can be attained. A simple regrind looses some lobe volume and will never put out the same torque curve as a fully rebuilt lobe.

A header won't do much for torque I would stay with the oe cast iron one but redo from the collector back in 2 1/4 and a good flowing muffler

a suitable TBI system can be transplanted from a 2.5l j$$p. Or smiler sized GM product. Then you get to tune it. I vote stay with a carb. Maybe dhla's od dcoe's. 28-32 mm chokes. Way more torque and hp. Efi is for emissions imo

port and polish with care if you want torque, to much port volume can hurt more than it helps. Properly done there are gains to be made here.

Do 304 cams work in 152s and is there a 2.5l f.I. Option you have been considering? Yeah funny noob questions. thanks guys! I love this forum!

The 304 cam won't work. Firing order, kills the idea but the lobes are in the correct location with exception of the fuel pump lobe which doesn't exist on the v8 cam per say.

We would be happy to start a 2.5l build thread if you wanted to have a go at it. I have a some what stock 2.5 in my 65 and it does very well.

 

[Mike Stevens]

Hmmm...well there seem to be dead ends on alot of the easy roads I try to take with this Scout. I want to run my Scout offroad only. I'm trying to stay away from the v8 swap and just build what I have. I know fuel injection will work better in the off kilter situations I'm planning on getting myself into. It sounds like the old muscle car engine buildup ideas dont work for the 152. Can I ever expect over 100 hp? Maybe 150 lbs./ft. Of torque? Enough to push 35's around strongly? Maybe I'm looking at it all the wrong way, but there seriously isnt a way to get a new cam either? Wow, this is gonna be rough. Thanks -Mike

 

[Carl Wiese]

hmmm...well there seem to be dead ends on alot of the easy roads I try to take with this Scout. I want to run my Scout offroad only. I'm trying to stay away from the v8 swap and just build what I have. I know fuel injection will work better in the off kilter situations I'm planning on getting myself into. It sounds like the old muscle car engine buildup ideas dont work for the 152. Can I ever expect over 100 hp? Maybe 150 lbs./ft. Of torque? Enough to push 35's around strongly? Maybe I'm looking at it all the wrong way, but there seriously isnt a way to get a new cam either? Wow, this is gonna be rough. Thanks -Mike

There's a guy in our club with a stock 152 running 37's. It's all about gearing. It's an offroad only truck and hangs just fine with big v-8's and anything else on the trail.

 

[Robert Kenney]

hmmm...well there seem to be dead ends on alot of the easy roads I try to take with this Scout. I want to run my Scout offroad only. I'm trying to stay away from the v8 swap and just build what I have. I know fuel injection will work better in the off kilter situations I'm planning on getting myself into. It sounds like the old muscle car engine buildup ideas dont work for the 152. Can I ever expect over 100 hp? Maybe 150 lbs./ft. Of torque? Enough to push 35's around strongly? Maybe I'm looking at it all the wrong way, but there seriously isnt a way to get a new cam either? Wow, this is gonna be rough. Thanks -Mike

No dead ends at all really!!! Sorry if I sounded that way. 100 hp easy 150 ft./lb May take stroking the 152 crank and boring .060 over to 160 inches

your 152 can be modified to make in excess of 230 hp with stroke mods to 188 inches but it all comes to money. Pistons rods and a stroked 196 crank.

Stroking a 152 to 188-190 inches will be a better performer that a 196 on a trail or the street. It will make more peak torque, make more torque earlier and make more hp more efficiently. Also run on regular.

Add gearing changes that carl mentioned and you will have one hell of a rig with a 4 banger to boot.

So it comes down to pick your poison.

 

[Michael Mayben]

We have verified that an sv cam can be used as a core for a weld-up/regrind by our cam supplier. The "unused" lobes will be removed.

The biggest hurdle is the fuel pump cam, that is not present onna sv cam blank or core, there is a lifter lobe present in it's place.

So we can have the lifter lobe onna sv core turned into a fuel pump lobe by adding some weld material to one end. Then a fuel pump lobe will have to be ground into the welded lobe. This is normal, everyday stuff for a cam shop.

So we have a few I-4 cam cores in the camdude's "bank" now, both are I-4...so we can supply nearly any grind requested for an I-4 right now onna original IH I-4 cam core with weldup.

The cams for sv motors are ground on new blanks, unless for some reason a customer wants a weld-up/regrind on their existing core. So we have several avenues for cams around here, regrinds (with nearly any profile imaginable), new stock cams, several "brand name" cams, etc.

 

[brained]

Subscribed!

Since my 152 got bogged down in the snow this year I'm looking for more power. A hot 152 or 196 would be preferred over the downtime associated with a 258 or 4bt.

 

[Mike Stevens]

Ha ha...um....I give up on the 152...I bought a 345. Lol thanks guys! -Mike

 

[Michael Mayben]

I'm still gathering components for the stroker motor, the lack of cubic dinero definitely slows down this process.

But since I'm in shop cleanup/purge mode I'm prepping the peripheral components for the build as I scavenge though my pile of donor schnizz.

Here's a shot of the prepped timing cover interior. This cover has had the oil filler removed and the hole blocked with the appropriate core plug...which happens to be the same size plug as used to fill the penetrations in the oem-design aluminum intake manifold.

Then the interior of the cover (and all internal engine component surfaces except fasteners) was shot with what is generically referred to as "glyptal":

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I'm using a version of the stuff manufactured by aervoe industries labeled as "insulating epoxy coating", p/n 401:

welcome!

Many years ago, in engine building, we used rustoleum "red" primer and applied with a brush, a very time consuming and nasty job. Idea is to seal the interior of the sterilized engine with a product that is very "slick" and will shed oil readily, while sealing the porosity of any castings and embedding any microscopic particle that might rise to the surface of the metallic components during operation. In the old days, "glyptal" was a much more advanced product to use, but also was much more difficult to deal with in it's old formulations.

This type product is typically used today in commercial electric motor shops to insulate freshly re-manufactured armatures, coils, etc. Two cans of this stuff will do an entire engine internally, including the head(s). It must be masked off any bearing saddles and kept out of machined/threaded penetrations as it builds a thick film and can be difficult to remove once it cures. It's also really not something ya wanna breathe so a rated respirator should be worn when applying. When it cures, it's nearly identical in appearance to powder coat.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Along with the "blocked" oil filler port in the timing cover, I'm going to use a valve cover with the oil filler port and the threaded boss for the flame arrestor.

This valve cover was badly damaged during an engine pull with some significant denting. I ironed it out and then sterilized the internals, including the baffle. After that, it was glyptal'd also.

The motor I'm building will incorporate a "closed" pcv system initially, so the valve cover port will be plumbed in the appropriate manner.

 

[Michael Mayben]

This is the inside of the spin-on type oil filter adapter, don't know if I'll use this one or the earlier style cannister oil filter.

This set has had the mating surfaces "trued". If extremely care is not used when mounting and torquing these items, they are easily warped...that results in external oil leaks that can't be stopped, and a possibility of oil bypassing the filtration system internally.

The mating surfaces on these parts were trued using 320 wet/dry sandpaper onna piece of "flat" granite.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Here's the crank hub I'm gonna use, it's ready to ship down to Robert so he can machine the magnetic trigger wheel for the ignition system and mate it to the hub.

This one has a damaged section where the oil seal rides, so it will get a repair sleeve installed. Once I get the finished unit back from Robert, I'll mount the pulley and it will go with the crank and the rest of the rotating/reciprocating parts (including the fresh flywheel and clutch assembly) to the engine balance dude up in portland for completion.

 

[Michael Mayben]

This is the front side of the water pump housing. This one was originally so nasty, a club member gave it to me because he didn't think it was useable, looked like the volute was rotted way beyond use.

After extensive hand cleaning (no abrasive blasting), the volute ended up being heavily coated with surface scale only, though it looked like concrete. Same for the interior passages.

The water pump that will mount to this housing has had it's stamped impeller custom clearanced to this volute, so this set will always be considered "matched".

These water pump housings for both I-4 and sv motors are not available as a replacement part, so we gotta do what we can to recycle this stuff for the future, do not let these go to scrap!!!

 

[Michael Mayben]

Continuing on, today I gutted the donor 152 so the block can go to the spa for a cleanup and straightening of the machined surfaces.

This is a very early '61 152 which I have intimate knowledge off over the last four years. It had set inna s80 and was only used yearly during hunting season.

A friend bought the rig, and we got it into dd service (kinda) for him. Then during a diagnostic session here in the shop, it shit the cam bearings while I watched...puked metallic bearing chunks right out of the rocker arm /shaft interface...when the dude tried to drive it home, it stuck tight. It was replaced with a later model used 152 that I freshened.

So this block is highly experienced and aged well! And it knows what "the hurt" feels like!

Along with the block, I'm using a few other parts from this one. But if the block ends up being scruud once it's cleaned and magnafluxed, then I do have two more to chose from. So let's go through the teardown...

Here's a shot of a typical nazzteeazz IH motor that ain't had no luv over the years. We see these nearly every day!

 

[Michael Mayben]

Not only was this motor dying a slow death in it's daily commute, it had a bit of a problem with coolant migrating into the cylinders.

And letting it sit in my shop on the stand non-rotated for the last three years hasn't helped any. It did rotate by hand...kinda.