Several Q's on my 80

F

FERG

Member
1. So I went through the start up procedure for a motor that has been sitting up for a while that mr. Mayben posted. I found that when I tried to prime the oil pump it was moving oil in the lower end but not up to the rockers. A buddy with another Scout said I could pull the oil pan and try to use an air hose to blow out the passage and try it again. Any thoughts on that?

My short term focus is to have the truck running so that I can pull it in and out of the garage and make the occasional trip around the block. At least until I get some rust repair and other things taken care of and have the money to pull the motor and go all through it.

1a. After running the oil pressure up and maintaining it for 10-15 minutes. I let it set for a few minutes and did it again. I used a wrench on the cranckshaft nut to see if it would turn. With the plugs out it seemed incredibly easy to turn. Way more so than any GM I have ever worked on. I put the plugs in and there was a little more resistance from the compression, but it was still pretty easy to move. Is this normal? Is this because it is a 4cyl? Or am I looking at a a bad set of rings or something? I thought maybe that since it was a lower compression motor with only 4cyl to fight that there might be less friction and therefore easier to move.

2. I have read somewhere that there are different distributors. Which one is this? I can make out delco on the tag and you can see the raised numbers 121 on the shaft.

distrib.jpg

Scout%2080

Scout%2080


3. On the backside of the distributor cap there is a square opening. What goes here? There were no wires or anythign near it and it seemed odd to have an opening like that.

distrib2.jpg


Thanks in advance

Craig
 
I'll be real blunt, your "buddy" don't know squat about what he's blowin'!

If you follow that procedure I posted and use over and over exactly, you will either find oil emerging,...or not! That is why we do this! And that is why a huge amount of time has been spent in researching this exact same issue in order to come up with the definitive information for doing this.

You have a very, very! Small window of camshaft rotation that allows oil flow to the rocker assembly (about 5* twice in every single rotation of the camshaft). Review this thread again, from post #53 on, this thread is constantly evolving, it will always reflect the latest findings, diagnostics, and fixes regarding this issue:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...4-sv-engine-non-oiling-rocker-assembly-2.html

Using compressed air in place of oil will do nothing, air will emerge from the very first point after the point of injection and all air pressure/volume will be lost. Air (a gas) is not oil (a liquid). Engines don't lubricate with air, they lubricate with a viscous liquid. Friction-type bearings/journals will not hold any amount of pnuematic pressure/volume due to their very nature of design requiring "clearance" to allow the oil wedge to form when in operation.

Your analysis of how much torque is required to rotate the crankshaft manually also means nothing. The only definitive diagnostic processes used for determining the condition of the upper cylinder system in any four-cycle engine is to perform a dry compression test, a hot/wet compression test, and then a cylinder leak-down test sequence. Those tests provide data for comparison and analysis. Otherwise, the only "test" is tear the motor down completely and measure all wear points.

Your distributor is a delco. The shutter (sheet steel) which closes that port in the cap is missing. That port allows access with a hex driver to adjust dwell (breaker point gap) while the engine is cranking over or running. We have definitive distributor identification information regarding ihc-produced vehicles in this thread, and again, that thread is updated on an as-need basis and is not static:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/642-ihc-vehicle-distributor-identification.html

The breaker point and condenser set shown in your pic is the very early version used in all delco distributors used in chev, pontiac, olds, ihc, rambler/amc, etc. Apps up until the advent of the delco hei system circa 1973 (never used in ihc apps) however, in about 1968, the design of the point/condenser set was changed to a "one-piece" unit called a uni-set. A uni-set is completely interchangeable with the individual point/ condenser set shown in your pic. A uni-set consist of a condenser and a breaker point assembly mounted on a single plate, the insulated terminal of the condenser serves as the insulated point "contact", serving two functions resulting in a major cost reduction for delco at that point in time, along with a much higher profit margin. It is somewhat difficult today to find an individual breaker point and condenser set for these distributors, though some folks will pay whatever for 'em if they are doing a true, period-correct delco distributor restoration.

The dwell on a delco I-4 distributor used in an IH 152 or 196 engine app must be set to 72*>74*. That factor is completely different from the dwell spec for an I-4 engine equipped with either a lucas or a Holley distributor, majorly different!! And is not the same as the dwell spec used in other four cylinder engines produced by other manufacturers over the years.
 
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If...after finding the "sweet spot" where the oil spit hole on the #4 camshaft journal aligns with the port in the block that feeds the rocker assembly ya do not see oil emerge, then remove the rocker assembly completely and repeat the test. Oil should emerge from the spit oil at exactly the same "pressure" as measured at the oil pressure sending unit port on the main oil gallery on the side of the block.

If you have oil at that point, but the rocker shaft will not fill and allow oil to weep at all eight rocker arm bushing points, then the rocker shaft is blocked with grunge, or the third rocker stand from the rear is blocked with crap.
 
Lol, ya my buddy is a little more redneck than I but only marginally. Trying to find the sweet spot was the reason I was turning the crankshaft but I was by myself. So it was turn it a hair then run the pump, turn it a hair then run the pump. I will try again when I have another set of hands handy or as I type this I am thinking why didn't I try and turn it from the top side. Duh.

Thanks for the other links, I searched for the distributor one since I thought I had seen something like that the other day on here but I guess I just missed it.

As for the the ease in turning the crankshaft. I understand what tests are necessary and why. It just seemed unsually easy to turn and was just curious if they are generally that easy to turn on this motor.

Thanks for taking the time.
 
Cannot really tell -- assume the steering arm dose not move???

If so, the "cup" at the box is attached to a splined shaft that is part of the steering box.

The clamp on the "cup" could not be tight enough, but most likely the splines on the shaft are rusted / worn away...

So, a "new" (used) box is needed, or find a good shaft and have someone rebuild the box...

Generally, even if a tooth is broken on the pitman arm inside the box, the box will still turn the steering. The box will just be "loose"...

Some people think that adjusting the "lash" adjustment screw that adjusts the meeting of the teeth on the pitman arn and the "nut" inside the box is a solution to loose steering, but, generally, that is not the case and the box needs to be rebuilt with new (or better) pieces (since I doubt any new are available).
 
ferg said:
one last thing I forgot to put in the original post, the steering. The steering wheel is connected to the box down low. It just turns and turns? What do I need to be looking at? Is this a bad box? Bad connection?

Here is a vid...

youtube - steering box
Click to expand...

That steering gear is a ross cam and lever unit. It does not operate internally at all like a more conventional worm and sector gear used on later model vehicles. It was used only on the Scout 80, the "early" version is somewhat different in design than the unit used in late '62 and newer. There were also three different steering columns and two sizes of bell joints used used also. A few versions of fullsize pickups also used that gear along with the full-jacket steering column. Your steering system is the "long", full mast jacket version with the small bell joint.

Willys also used a near identical( but not identical) gear in the early versions of civilian jeeps.

If the cam (the input spline which the bell joint connects to) turns continuously with no definite full left and full right stop, then the cam follower inside has most likely broken off. That is caused by impact damage when these rigs are flat towed without restricting the steering wheel movement in some manner.

This pic shows a cam follower that is destroyed but not broken off. The cam groove (not shown) is also toast. One of our other moderators here at ihon is the only person I know on the planet that actually has the parts (most of 'em anyway) needed to replace/rebuild one of these gears. Don't be taken in by a couple of "other" online vendors who "claim" to have these parts and complete "rebuilt" steering gears...they do not!

Parts for rebuilding (actually a kit) the bell joint itself are readily available here at ihon if it is the "small" bell joint (most common and also used on Scout 800 and some Scout II). Your gear uses the small bell joint, so you have really lucked out there.
 

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ferg said:
lol, ya my buddy is a little more redneck than I but only marginally. Trying to find the sweet spot was the reason I was turning the crankshaft but I was by myself. So it was turn it a hair then run the pump, turn it a hair then run the pump. I will try again when I have another set of hands handy or as I type this I am thinking why didn't I try and turn it from the top side. Duh.

Thanks for the other links, I searched for the distributor one since I thought I had seen something like that the other day on here but I guess I just missed it.

As for the the ease in turning the crankshaft. I understand what tests are necessary and why. It just seemed unsually easy to turn and was just curious if they are generally that easy to turn on this motor.

Thanks for taking the time.
Click to expand...

Consider yourself extremely fortunate that the crankshaft will actually turn! By far, the majority of these engines that have been neglected for years are frozen internally!

What you think is "easy" rotation is not unusual at all and means nothing.
 
Thanks guys I appreciate the feedback. Michael you are probably dead on with the flat towing info on this truck. I happen to know the previous owner well. He towed it here with a home made tow bar from Colorado about 2 years ago. He was smart enough to disconnect the driveshaft but it looks like he May have neglected the steering issue. I will look into my options and see what is cost effective vs. What is a good strong rebuild vs. Upgrade options.

Thanks again,
craigo

ps I also noticed the hole in the frame where the box bolt up appears to be worn out and way oversized or possibly torn metal. Is the hole meant to be oversized for adjustment? If not then my plan would be to repair the damage and any cracks in the frame at that location then weld on a 1/4" plate for suppport and remount the new unit. Would the repair plate being on the side of the frame that the box mounts to affect geometry in anyway?
 
Lookin at the box in the video, I don't recognize it as the oem ross box. At the input shaft there should be a small bearing retainer/cover that has 4 bolts on it... The entire box is also aluminum and non magnetic if to dirty to tell.
Infact isn't that a power steering box you have?
 
Ok, when I get home tomorrow I will take a closer looke and see if I can find some identifying marks.
 
Well as it turns out the knuckle at the gear box was just loose. I tightened it down and booyah. So the steering works now, sorda. I will cover that later in a fab post. (po virus caused swiss cheese frame)

for now I need to identify my gear box, I took a wire wheel to the end cap and under the grime I found the numbers 56890 and I think there was another 0 that I cleaned off. So it might have been 568900. A quick google search didn't turn up anything. Anyone recognize it? I have some more pics I can post from the lower side if that helps to id it.

Thanks
Craig
 
I do not think you should trust just tightening -- at some point you need to "disconnect" enough pieces so that you can see the condition of the splines on the shaft.

Picture of the box from the side would help...

Also, a picture of the p/s pump itself.
 
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I will have to get one of the pump.

Your right about not just tightening it, I plan to pull it off completely I just didn't have anything to diconnect the pitman arm right now. I will pull the whole thing out in the not too distant future to cinspect and clean the box as well as make some much needed frame repair. My thought on it though is that the po just loosened it while towing, not sure if thats right or why he would, it's only a theory.
 
That is a worm and sector-type steering gear. Those are normally not damaged by the steering gear "slamming" full lock left and right when flat towing. In fact, because of the extreme "drag" in a power steering gear, if the geometry is not too bad, then they actually tow better than a manual gear.

With that type steering gear do not restrict steering wheel travel, otherwise the rig won't "follow" in a turn and will push the tow rig around severely!
 
I'll tell you what, that box looks very similar to the one I have sitting on a shelf that came out of organ donor, the '73 1210 4x2...right down to the stubby, bent pitman arm and the number stamped across the front. While it's not the same number, it is numerically similar. The first three digits match. What you've got there ferg, is a jinyoowine frankenscout.
 
michael mayben said:
if...after finding the "sweet spot" where the oil spit hole on the #4 camshaft journal aligns with the port in the block that feeds the rocker assembly ya do not see oil emerge, then remove the rocker assembly completely and repeat the test. .
Click to expand...

I struck oil!!!!

Took a few tries but I found the sweet spot. I need to rig up the adapter to check the pressure so I can fire it off tuesdayish.

Thanks again
 
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