Occasional missing, wires

Mastiff

Member
Just plugged in the refurb distributor with pertronix. I have it wired in to my msd 6. I had a heck of a time with it sputtering, coughing, backfiring. I messed around with the timing and also the choke setting and it just kind of smoothed out, maybe I was fooling myself and it was the choke all along. I'll check again tomorrow when it's cool again.

Once it smoothed out I still noticed the occasional miss. Just a puff from the exhaust pipe. I had this before. I was hoping it was distributor/points related and would be gone now, but I guess not.

I noticed a few things though. First, grabbing the top of the distributor to adjust timing while running will almost always give me a nasty shock (from the center terminal). Also, when I turn out the light and look at the engine I see a glow where the coil wire lays over the radiator hose, plus light arcing from under the coil boot to the coil terminals. Could this be the source of my problem? If so, is the solution better plug wires?
 
Anytime you see arcing or get a shock from plug wires or a coil wire your leakin current the glow on the wire isnt good either, I would start by replacing the wires. The cheapies aint worth shizz. I got a set at oreillys for around 30 bucks fit was good and they seem to be built pretty well. As far as the glowing wires check your feeds and grounds even inside the dizz.
 
I just went out this morning and tried to fire it up again. Something is not right. Starting up cold the thing just sounds terrible sputtering and backfiring.

To back up: I took the cap off, took a picture of the rotor position and distrib, pulled it out and mailed it to michael. I didn't touch the vehicle until I got the distrib back yesterday. I plugged it back in the same orientation it came out. It was running well when I pulled it.

The wiring is different now. Before there was just the black wire, going to the msd white wire. Now, the pertronix black goes to msd white and pertronix red goes to key switch ignition (straight from the key switch, new clean run).

Any ideas?

I've played with the timing a lot, twisting the cap around while it's sputter along. Doesn't seem to do much and certainly doesn't smooth it up. On startup there seems to be a little kickback though, indicating maybe there is a timing issue. Was it incorrect to assume that putting it back in the way it was would get me in the ballpark? Going by the timing light, it's not bad.
 
The dizzy is most likely stabbed in the wrong location and or the wires are wrong.

Or you have a bad cap or coil and now with the hot ignition it is cross firing.

1) get the engine to tdc compression stroke #1 and line the hub to the 10* advanced Mark,
2) Mark #1 plug wire on the dizzy body. Pull the cap and see where the rotor is pointing. If it is in the correct general location go to the next step.
3) look at the ptx pick up and lobe indexing. Iirc the ptx fires when the lobe leaves the pickup. Loosen the dizzy and line up the lobe center and pickup element center. That will get you close.
4) reverify plug wire location clockwise from the #1 location. If correct. Start it up and get a light on it immediately. Set your initial timing to 10* advanced.

Still not running right change the wires, cap and rotor if mm did not put a new ones on.

Report back here. Then we can move on to the next logical step if needed.
 
I'll see what I can figure out regarding absolute timing. I did have the msd all along though, so there shouldn't be any hotter spark I don't think, just more stable ignition triggering...

The other thing that is hard to explain is that it basically smoothed out yesterday after it warmed up a little. If the timing was drastically off, would this happen?
 
I had kind of the same symptoms, ran like crap, sputtering coughing, missing on cylinders while cold, once warmed up really good it would smooth out. Lots of black smoke out the back when cold. Found out I had a flat cam lobe...not saying this is your issue, just a side thought.
 
I always get a little confused about distributor operation. Why is it that the distributor can't be stabbed in anywhere and the body/cap just rotated appropriately to account for it? In other words, say I find tdc #1 compression and find that the rotor and #1 plug location on the cap are like 30 degrees apart. Why couldn't I just rotate the cap over so it's lined up? Or can I?
 
Okay. I got out my compression tester and remote starter, pulled all the plugs and attached the tester into #1 plug hole. Bumped the starter looking for the time when the timing Mark topped out and the needle bumped up on the tester.

Once I found this spot, I backed it up to the 10* Mark and aligned the #1 on the cap with that spot. I fired it up and it was rough, but I advanced it some and it smoothed up. After warming up a little I put the light on it and the timing Mark is nowhere in sight. I could see the little ear where the Mark is at something like 90* advance - fully to the passenger side, level. How is this possible? The engine was running smooth. When I tried to pull back some of the advance it just started getting rough. What could be causing this?

Added: even though it's smooth, something is still not right. During start it acts like it's trying to kick back or something. I'm not sure what you are trying to tell me on the pertronix. The magnet ring is attached to the bottom of the rotor and to me it looks totally smooth except for a few notches and it looks like mm made a registration Mark on it. It looks like it could be rotated 180*, but that's it.

Added: some pics. Here I am at 15 degrees advance on compression:
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What I see under the rotor pertronix-wise.
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Rotor on:
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And with the cap on, #1 lined up with rotor:
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I hate to even ask this, but michael, is it possible you installed a v8 pertronix instead of 4-cyl? I attached my handheld tach to the msd, which gives a great tach signal, and it looks way too high and easily could be double. If I set my meter to 8-cyl mode, the readings seem about right. It would also explain how I'm getting shocked on the cap so much, and just my general grief getting this to run right. I couldn't see any useful numbers on the pertronix itself or anything else to indicate 4 vs. 8.
 
The msd box makes exactly what it infers, multiple sparks. You have to use the dedicated tach plug on the msd box for an rpm referance. Any other hookup like a timing light will give you a false rpm indication.

This ignition stuff May need experienced help in your case. Very simple stuff but that assumes some level of experience to make the parts work. I suggest seaking hands on help in your case.

Or follow my instructions implicitly and verbatim. Don't insert your own opinion/ interpretation.
 
the msd box makes exactly what it infers, multiple sparks. You have to use the dedicated tach plug on the msd box for an rpm referance. Any other hookup like a timing light will give you a false rpm indication.

This ignition stuff May need experienced help in your case. Very simple stuff but that assumes some level of experience to make the parts work. I suggest seaking hands on help in your case.

Or follow my instructions implicitly and verbatim. Don't insert your own opinion/ interpretation.

Robert, I did plug my handheld tach into the msd tach port. This gave beautiful readings before and the reading was clear now, only double what it should be. I was at a high idle and the reading was 1800 which is simply not possible. Putting the tach in 8 cyl mode gave reasonable readings.

I thought I was following your instructions. I found tdc #1 on compression and lined everything up. I validated the wires going to the correct plugs. #3 I don't understand. I'll follow that if you can explain.

Maybe I come off like a fool, but in this case, the tach reading is double and I'm using my instruments correctly.
 
Seems you are still "one tooth off" (or more?)

"once I found this spot, I backed it up to the 10* Mark and aligned the #1 on the cap with that spot."

you do not align the cap; you align the rotor (to the cap). You cannot see the rotor with the cap on the distributor. So, you have no idea where the rotor ends up.

The distributor drive gear is "beveled" -- the rotor will slightly change "alignment" as you fully install it.

You want the rotor in the correct position after you install the distributor - which means you will have to slightly twist the rotor "off alignment" (one direction or the other depending on the bevel) so that it ends up in the correct position once the distributor is fully seated.

Personally, I would not "back off to 10*; I would install the distributor at tdc. Then, use the "ajustment" of the distributor to set your final timing.

For future reference: if you are pulling a distributor for maintenance / replacement, I would rotate the distributor so that the rotor lines up with a place that I can Mark as the position of the rotor. Then, when you reinstall the distributor, you just align the rotor with that Mark... No need for the "finding tdc gyrations"...
 
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Maybe I come off like a fool, but in this case, the tach reading is double and I'm using my instruments correctly.

Not trying to infer that you are a fool. Nothing to feel bad about not knowing a specific fact.

All we can do is make recommendations when the questions posted contain limited information.

The triger ring May be the issue but let's let michael post up or pm you regarding his work. I am not involved in the work he does for people. I won't comment there.
 
seems you are still "one tooth off" (or more?)

I think I'm getting 8 sparks instead of 4. I'm nearly certain.

But let's talk about it anyway.

you do not align the cap; you align the rotor (to the cap).

But the cap can be anywhere since the base of the distributor can be rotated to any position. How do you decide what is the "correct" position besides concerns about the vac canister hitting things?

you cannot see the rotor with the cap on the distributor. So, you have no idea where the rotor ends up.

I can Mark where the rotor is pointing (relative to something on the engine) then put the cap on and adjust a little bit to take up the difference . It's not perfect but I can easily get close enough for the engine to start and then complete timing with a light.

you want the rotor in the correct position after you install the distributor - which means you will have to slightly twist the rotor "off alignment" (one direction or the other depending on the bevel) so that it ends up in the correct position once the distributor is fully seated.

Understood about the rotor twisting as it goes in. As far as which comes first, you are assuming I care much exactly how the distributor cap/body is positioned. If there's something I'm missing, please let me know, but I think I just need it in the right general area so I can adjust timing without the vac can hitting something or the wires binding. In this case it came out in the right general area so I moved on.

Before I pulled the distrib I noted the body/rotor position and I put it back in just that way.

Anyway, I'm very open to being educated. Please explain if being a single tooth off can actually make the engine untunable (or not able to tuned as well as if it was a tooth over). Thanks.

personally, I would not "back off to 10*; I would install the distributor at tdc. Then, use the "ajustment" of the distributor to set your final timing.

This was Robert's suggestion, but it makes sense since you know you'll end up around there anyway.
 
3) look at the ptx pick up and lobe indexing.

Pertronix has more than one design of module. Some use the points cam lobe as a triger and others use a triger ring as shown in yours. Have no way of knowing which you have... Either way the magnet becomes what I am refering to as the "lobe". It is acting as the timing element in your dizzy.

In your case the ptx module has a location that is usually marked or visible that indicates the pickup location. The magnet or lobe needs to be lined up with the #1 pickup location cap post and the timing Mark on the balancer/hub lined up with 10*. That "dead timing" should very close for it to run ok assuming all other variables are good.
 
pertronix has more than one design of module. Some use the points cam lobe as a triger and others use a triger ring as shown in yours. Have no way of knowing which you have... Either way the magnet becomes what I am refering to as the "lobe". It is acting as the timing element in your dizzy.

In your case the ptx module has a location that is usually marked or visible that indicates the pickup location. The magnet or lobe needs to be lined up with the #1 pickup location cap post and the timing Mark on the balancer/hub lined up with 10*. That "dead timing" should very close for it to run ok assuming all other variables are good.

Yeah, it looks pretty straightforward. I'd expect one magnet on the ring for each lobe just doing the same function electronically as the lobes do mechanically. I haven't found any marks on the ring or the sensor that would allow a person to know visibly when a trigger is happening (magnets can't be seen with the distributor installed, unless you use a little mirror). I suppose a person could Mark the side of the ring at the magnet location but there'd still be the uncertainty about exactly where on the module the trigger occurs.

Since I didn't do the install I can't say for sure, but it really looks like the manufacturer has that all locked down anyway. The ring looks like it can only go on one of two ways. The module looks like it goes where it goes too.

Thanks for the help.
 
I was not available on the ihon forum yesterday charles, I had a binder u. Student here and I'm inna massive crunch trying to get a transmission conversion system built/assembled and delivered to an ihon customer by noon on Monday 125 miles away.

In the future, if you or any ihon customer has an issue with any work which we perform, please...contact us directly so that we May work you through whatever is going on. I personally am the only person who knows your system and distributor, this is not run-of-the-mill stuff and is a one-off system for your vehicle even though it's certainly not out of the ordinary. Had you called me, I would have talked you through this and saved alot of trouble and conjecture.

Your first issue was that you initially did not install the distributor back into the engine in the correct position. Due to the design of the delco distributor and the engine peripherals, it will correctly install in only one exact location/spot on an I-4 engine. The delco cap (and no other distributor cap) cannot be "re-indexed" due to the method of hold-down, the window location, and the key for the cap/body interface.

Random high energy spark "leakage" is very common when incorporating any cd ignition box, that system can pump in excess of 40kv at 100+ millijoules. You must use a high quality cap/rotor and plug cables to direct the spark to the plug gap and not the nearest ground point.

The pertronix conversion is "common" for all delco distributors which use the externally-adjustable breaker point set. However, there are detail differences in both the module and the magnet ring for specifc applications. And over the years pertronix has changed the magnet ring for the delco unit. Even though it has eight magnet segments, only four are actually magnets and those four must be properly phased at the point of manufacture.

On two previous occasions, I have found very similar issues to yours when using a p-tron in an I-4 delco. But neither were triggering a msd box so the situation was easily resolved. The msd changes everything. Pertronix simply packaged the wrong magnet ring in the wrong package. I have no doubt that is what the secondary issue you are experiencing now is.

I have two more I-4 application pertronix kits on the way to me right now. As soon as they arrive, one will be installed in a fresh delco distributor that is identical to the one I just completed for you and I will send it on. But you have said that right now the engine is running and drivable, continue to do so until another replacement distributor arrives. Once you have swapped it out again, I need that distributor you have now returned, I will reimburse you for the shipping personally, not ihon. The pertronix units we use are not sourced from pertronix, I must have the faulty part so that I can address this with the distributor for these items, not pertronix.

The setup of the magnet ring shimming and mounting of the module is unique in each of these delco type distributors, the module itself varies greatly as to the exact position it's riveted to the mounting plate. So we don't just slam these parts into the distributor nor can you indiscriminately swap parts around. The setup is a bit more tedious than encountered with Holley, motorcraft, chrysler, etc. Distributors. Had you attempted to install a p-tron in your distributor before rebuilding, there is no way that the magnet ring and module relationship could have been correctly achieved and it would have failed immediately due to a collision between the two parts.

Your distributor was damaged in the past by someone beating on the mechanical advance components with a hammer or something. I had to repair all the damage and replace the counterweights and the incorrect springs that had been installed also.

The distributor cap I see in your pic is filthy, as was the inside of your distributor when I received it (looked like it had been dropped in sand). I suspect that cap has a microscopic crack in it (very common) and the msd box hugely magnifies the effects of a cracked cap. Replace it with new.
 
I apologize if I seemed to be going around the proper channels. I thought this was The proper channel, one where others could learn from my mistakes when I get help. I'll contact you "off line" first next time.
 
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